Trains with no toilets

[tbtc]

(following on from the debate in the 150 thread)

What are the regulations for trains running with no toilet? And how many classes have there been?

The "tram train" proposal was to have the hour and a half journey from Sheffield to Huddersfield run by toilet-less trains - but would a Sprinter without working toilets be allowed to run a service, or would it have to be cancelled?

 

[Drsatan]

The 313s and 455s don't have toilets, but then they're only used on suburban services where most passengers only spend up to half an hour on them so the lack of toilets isn't an issue.

 

[northwichcat]

(following on from the debate in the 150 thread)

What are the regulations for trains running with no toilet? And how many classes have there been?

The "tram train" proposal was to have the hour and a half journey from Sheffield to Huddersfield run by toilet-less trains - but would a Sprinter without working toilets be allowed to run a service, or would it have to be cancelled?

Northern have run Buxton-Blackpool using 150s without working toilets and haven't even scheduled in a toilet stop at Stockport, Bolton or Preston, so I don't think they'd treat the Penistone Line any different.

I've heard it's 50 miles rather than the length of the journey.

 

[GNERman]

class 376 have none...

 

[poshbakerloo]

I don't get why they take em out...all you what get is like 4 extra seats!

 

[generalvegitable]

you still keep some of the seats when they are in

 

[northwichcat]

The entire Merseyrail fleet (507s and 508s) don't have toilets. The longest journey you can do on one is Hunts Cross-Southport via Liverpool Central.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Munich s-bahn trains have no toilets and an end-to-end run can last 80 mins, most people don't do the full length though

 

[generalvegitable]

LUL D stock trains have a good long run, no toilets there either

 

[jopsuk]

Not haaving toilets doesn't just create extra seat space. It means one less thing that can go wrong; one less thing to get vandalised- an extra concern on the metro-type services run by the likes of classes 313, 376, 455 etc, especially DOO operations. On newer classes, toliets would have to have retention tanks- these need emptied. Even without, you still need to find the time and facilites to fill up the flush and handwash reservoirs.
it's also something further for the cleaning crews to clean, requiring more equipment and consumables. Metro services can often run with fairly short turnarounds at the terminals. Having no loos helps this.

 

[northwichcat]

Not having toilets doesn't just create extra seat space. It means one less thing that can go wrong; one less thing to get vandalised- an extra concern on the metro-type services run by the likes of classes 313, 376, 455 etc, especially DOO operations. On newer classes, toliets would have to have retention tanks- these need emptied. Even without, you still need to find the time and facilites to fill up the flush and handwash reservoirs.
it's also something further for the cleaning crews to clean, requiring more equipment and consumables. Metro services can often run with fairly short turnarounds at the terminals. Having no loos helps this.

But it should mean toilets need to be provided at most stations instead.

 

[ukrob]

I don't get why they take em out...all you what get is like 4 extra seats!

Plus less to go wrong, less to be vandalised, therefore lower maintenance costs, fewer supplies to order, less weight to carry around etc etc etc.

But aside from that, who has mentioned taking them out?

 

[driver9000]

would a Sprinter without working toilets be allowed to run a service, or would it have to be cancelled?

A service wouldnt be cancelled because the toilet isnt working, the crew could make longer 'comfort' stops at their discretion. There are no requirements for onboard toilets to be provided in any group standard that Im aware of.

 

[Aictos]

I know of one 317 which did Peterborough to Kings Cross to Cambridge to Kings Cross without any toilets.

Calling Patterns were:

Peterborough

All Stations to Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park and Kings Cross

Kings Cross

Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield then all stations to Cambridge

Cambridge

All Stations to Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park and Kings Cross

Could have been tanked up at Kings Cross but for whatever reason wasn't possible.

 

[GNERman]

i know that a lot of class 333's haven't had their toilets in use due to the bad weather which for a 40 minute trains isn't so good plus they are very new to have them OOU due to the cold...

 

[ukrob]

i know that a lot of class 333's haven't had their toilets in use due to the bad weather which for a 40 minute trains isn't so good plus they are very new to have them OOU due to the cold...

People can't go a maximum of 40 mins without needing the toilet? What is the world coming to.

There are routes longer than that without toilets anyway.

 

[trickyvegas]

They run a 323 in the mornings from Manchester Stoke which is almost an hour journey and I think some of the Crewe services are similar length on the same sort of train.

 

[royaloak]

i know that a lot of class 333's haven't had their toilets in use due to the bad weather which for a 40 minute trains isn't so good plus they are very new to have them OOU due to the cold...

Sarcastic mode}
How do you think the water tank gets filled up?

yes correct, a rather big hose pipe, now I dont know if you have noticed but its been a tad chilly lately and guess what happened to the water in the hose pipe? {mode over
Oh and most CET roads are outside so you will also have a H&S issue with the water that inevitably gets spilled as well as the snow.

 

[GNERman]

People can't go a maximum of 40 mins without needing the toilet? What is the world coming to.

There are routes longer than that without toilets anyway.

I know that, but the thing with Skipton - Leeds is that the toilets at Skipton are always locked which requires you to get the key from the office and return them, a bit of a pain.

I'm not saying that it's the end of the world i', just saying that forty minutes is longer than you think for a journey and you can be caught out.

 

[Aictos]

I know that, but the thing with Skipton - Leeds is that the toilets at Skipton are always locked which requires you to get the key from the office and return them, a bit of a pain.

Have you thought it might be to prevent vandalism or other illegal activity?

A few years ago, my station suffered greatly from drug usage so the toilets got locked out of use and you had to request a key to use the toilets. Thankfully now, these days seem to be long gone but still back to your post, I'm sure there's a valid reason why the toilets at Skipton are always locked.

Have you asked the staff there why they are required to be locked off and you need to ask for the key?

 

[aspierail]

Class 314, Class 315 and Class 320 don't have toilets either but as they are suburban units they is no point as commuters would just get on and get off as they do short distances only.

 

[route:oxford]

When you travel by car, if you are desperate or feeling unwell - you can pull over and undertake the necessary.

Even the most ignorant bus driver will pull to the side of the road away from a regular stop if you are clearly close to the point of no return.

Sadly I once felt very ill on an early return home from work, unfortunately whilst the immodium I took at my office was very effective the nausea built substantially and my mouth holding dash to the loo on the 156 was thwarted by an "out of order" sign. Moving along to the vestibule and external door, I rested my forehead against the coolness of the glass taking deep breaths reassuring myself that I'd be ok and it was only 9 minutes to the next station... It wasn't helping and starting to feel hot and dizzy, I returned to the toilet door and tried it again anyway, before starting to see stars, sagging to my knees and mega-barf.

As a consequence, the service was terminated at the next station and stock returned to depot for cleaning depriving other passengers of a journey. All for the sake of an out of order loo.

It would be wrong at this point not to mention how kind the gripper and other passengers were on this very busy service after my "moment". A member of staff at the terminating station drove me home in his own car.

I wrote to the head of Scotrail (not operated by First at that time) afterwards both to apologise and thank the staff for their help. He wrote back in return to apologise that the loo was broken...

 

[Royston Vasey]

Lunchtime drinking really is deplorable routexford!

There was until recently, there may still be, at least one 313 turn London to Royston in the evening peak, maybe depart 1800ish from either Moorgate or Kings Cross? That must have taken well over an hour, maybe as much as 90 minutes. Now few people would take that service to Stevenage or stations beyond because of regular faster alternatives, but I bet the odd unsuspecting non-regular traveller has got that all the way in error, possibly befouling the upholstery along the way!

Does that still run? I moved from the area a few months ago now so have no easy way of checking! I've also no idea where in London it started or whether it went via Hertford North or the Main Line!

 

[Fincra5]

class 376 have none...

This means, and i think its similar with other classes without toilets, they are limited to a single run of 57mins.

 

[Aictos]

Lunchtime drinking really is deplorable routexford!

There was until recently, there may still be, at least one 313 turn London to Royston in the evening peak, maybe depart 1800ish from either Moorgate or Kings Cross? That must have taken well over an hour, maybe as much as 90 minutes. Now few people would take that service to Stevenage or stations beyond because of regular faster alternatives, but I bet the odd unsuspecting non-regular traveller has got that all the way in error, possibly befouling the upholstery along the way!

Does that still run? I moved from the area a few months ago now so have no easy way of checking! I've also no idea where in London it started or whether it went via Hertford North or the Main Line!

Not any more, I've gone though the Dec 09 unit diagrams for the 313s and there's nothing to suggest they go any further then Letchworth.

Saying that though, a pair of 313s I think did step in to cover a Cambridge service although I think it only went as far as Royston and started back from there as there were no other available stock.

Happened last month as well,

 

[surreysprite]

I've often had to sit on a 455 from Boxhill & Westhumble to Waterloo with no WC, then queue up to exchange my permit to travel for a ticket whilst being treated as a fare evader, and then finally made it through to the 'facilities'!

 

[ukrob]

This means, and i think its similar with other classes without toilets, they are limited to a single run of 57mins.

Southport - Hunts Cross on Merseyrail is longer than that. As has already been said, it is distance not time which triggers if a toilet or 'comfort stops' are required.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Not any more, I've gone though the Dec 09 unit diagrams for the 313s and there's nothing to suggest they go any further then Letchworth.

Saying that though, a pair of 313s I think did step in to cover a Cambridge service although I think it only went as far as Royston and started back from there as there were no other available stock.

Happened last month as well,

Cheers for that ajax103. I thought you would know, and I suspected with the 321s arriving that this may be no more. Did that run via your neck of the woods then? A rare direct connection from that branch northwards if so!

Better a 313 than no service at all!

 

[mathmo]

I once sat needing the loo all the way from Liverpool Street to Cambridge, which was not pleasant in the slightest. I hadn't realised the train might not have a working toilet and assumed I'd be able to go on board. This was particularly bad as I'd had to divert to Liverpool Street as the ECML was closed (extending my journey by about an hour) and the train was therefore packed!

And in the shock-to-the-passengers-system stakes, it doesn't quite trump the 317s Kings Cross to Newcastle of the early GNER days!!

Did this really happen, and if so are there pictures?!

 

[Royston Vasey]

I once sat needing the loo all the way from Liverpool Street to Cambridge, which was not pleasant in the slightest. I hadn't realised the train would have no toilet and assumed I'd be able to go on board. This was particularly bad as I'd had to divert to Liverpool Street as the ECML was closed (extending my journey by about an hour) and the train was therefore packed!

Did this really happen, and if so are there pictures?!

Ha! Well I'm starting to doubt know, but I've read and seen a picture somewhere, taken from the South end of Newcastle Central of a WAGN 317 in NSE livery when the 91s and/or Mk IVs were recalled for bogie mods after the Sandy derailment. I've edited the post now as I can't find the pic!!