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Trains from Leicester to Bedford?

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MCW

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having misplaced my paper timetables which i find easier to use, how many trains per hour go from LEI to BED during off peak hours? as I have the East Mids ranger 3 in 7 days rover I am planning to do the west side of the ticket area and getting to bedfore would be useful for me to get to bletchley

many thanks
 
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Mugby

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This surprised me when I picked up the latest timetable booklet recently.

Has the number of stops been reduced in the past year or two?
 

Tomnick

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The second Bedford call each hour is now picked up by a Corby service - one less train per hour between Bedford and anywhere north of Kettering, but others (Loughborough and Long Eaton in particular) benefit from a faster journey time to London as a result - so it's a winner for me ;) .
 

bb21

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Leicester - Kettering was the biggest loser from the timetable recast, down from 2-3 trains an hour to one nowadays.
 

MidnightFlyer

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I'd also argue Luton too (not that I can imagine why anyone would ever want to visit the place) - down from 1tph to Nottingham to 1tph to Corby - for a town of its size (fourth largest in the UK) to lose direct connections to Leicester and Nottingham etc I don't think is too good. Mind you, it is negated by the Airport Parkway calls, which see 2tph to Nottingham. It just depends if you classify Luton Airport Parkway as serving the town.
 

bb21

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It just depends if you classify Luton Airport Parkway as serving the town.

Given that you cannot doubleback via Airport Parkway with a ticket going north from Luton, I would say that it does not.

Luton - Sheffield / Derby is an interesting one. Two changes required for the majority of the day despite being along the MML.
 

Tomnick

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...it is negated by the Airport Parkway calls, which see 2tph to Nottingham.
Only the hourly Nottingham slow calls there - the second Nottingham train each hour is fast to Market Harborough for most of the day.
 

gnolife

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Given that you cannot doubleback via Airport Parkway with a ticket going north from Luton, I would say that it does not.

I disagree with you on that. In the Routing guide Easements, theres
30255: Customers travelling via Wellingborough to or from Luton may doubleback via Luton Airport Parkway. This easement applies in both directions
.

Also, if you are using the shortest route, the doubleback from Luton to Airport Parkway is 2 miles (1 mile each way), meaning that you would be fine under the 3 mile rule.
 

A0

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I'd also argue Luton too (not that I can imagine why anyone would ever want to visit the place) - down from 1tph to Nottingham to 1tph to Corby - for a town of its size (fourth largest in the UK) to lose direct connections to Leicester and Nottingham etc I don't think is too good. Mind you, it is negated by the Airport Parkway calls, which see 2tph to Nottingham. It just depends if you classify Luton Airport Parkway as serving the town.

The bulk of traffic to / from Luton is from London, perhaps unsurprisingly.

Luton does very well when compared to other towns in the region though - Northampton is bigger yet has lost its north-bound connections onto the TV line and is only served by LM services from London - Birmingham.

Even the quickest trains stop at about 3 other places on their way into London.

Luton has retained a connection to Nottingham - and arguably for many people the connection to Luton Airport Parkway is probably more convenient than Luton station.
 

Cherry_Picker

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Swings and roundabouts though. Onward connections in Birmingham are far better than in Nottingham.

LM, and Virgin to be fair, always have the excuse that the vast majority of the people they carry on their trains do not want to go via Northampton. They are casting the timetable for the needs of the many.
 

bb21

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I disagree with you on that. In the Routing guide Easements, theres
.

Also, if you are using the shortest route, the doubleback from Luton to Airport Parkway is 2 miles (1 mile each way), meaning that you would be fine under the 3 mile rule.

I'm not entirely convinced by the shortest route + 3 miles argument. I know some people agree with that interpretation, however that is for another thread.

You are of course correct about the easement. I am not really aware of it.
 

Bedpan

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I'd also argue Luton too (not that I can imagine why anyone would ever want to visit the place)

Its not that people want to visit Luton, its more that those of us living nearby want to get away from it as quickly as possible, and 1tph is not enough!

I recall there was mention of the situation being addressed a couple of years back but nothing happened. Its a pity that the XX.15 that makes one intermediate stop between London and Leicester does so at Market Harborough (pop 20170) as opposed to Luton (pop 255000 with Dunstable and Houghton Regis). In fact anywhere BUT Market Harborough would do - if it stopped at Bedford it would connect with FCC services there, if it stopped at Wellingborough or Kettering it would connect with the XX.00 London - Corby which stops at Luton ie would have a second alternative per hour to stations north of Kettering, albeit with a change required.
 

bb21

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Its not that people want to visit Luton, its more that those of us living nearby want to get away from it as quickly as possible, and 1tph is not enough!

Why would you want to get away from Luton to ...


gloomy Midlands? :lol:

I recall there was mention of the situation being addressed a couple of years back but nothing happened. Its a pity that the XX.15 that makes one intermediate stop between London and Leicester does so at Market Harborough (pop 20170) as opposed to Luton (pop 255000 with Dunstable and Houghton Regis). In fact anywhere BUT Market Harborough would do - if it stopped at Bedford it would connect with FCC services there, if it stopped at Wellingborough or Kettering it would connect with the XX.00 London - Corby which stops at Luton ie would have a second alternative per hour to stations north of Kettering, albeit with a change required.

I do think that the situation is a little silly with the hourly HST from Nottingham only stopping at Market Harborough (to give it a fast service to London I believe). If it stopped at Kettering, then with some minor rejig, it could connect quite well with the Corby stopper, opening up a whole host of other journey opportunities. Added to that, quite often the HST gets to St Pancake early and has to wait for a platform anyway if it gets a clear run.

Alternatively if it might result in the feeling that Nottingham is losing its fast service, they could stop the xx53/55 4/5-car Meridian from Leicester at Kettering. It's the "slow" train from Sheffield so won't affect headline times. This of course means that Market Harborough - Kettering only has one train an hour still, however with the HST only 2-4 minutes behind, stopping at Kettering and moving the Market Harborough stop from the HST to the Meridian is likely to mean the Meridian being caught up along the way so can't see this realistically happening.

No idea how feasible all these things are regarding paths, etc.
 

Bedpan

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Why would you want to get away from Luton to ...


gloomy Midlands? :lol:

Ummm......errrr.........well the wife and daughters like the Highcross, and I quite like New Walk, and Luton has nothing to compare with either of them. ;)

Oh, and my youngest daughter is at Leicester Uni, so that's a good reason to go.
 

edwin_m

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In earlier Midland Mainline timetables there were slower services to Nottingham and Derby which called at all stations between Wellingborough and Leicester. When it was re-cast one of the slow services went to Corby instead, so could not serve Market Harborough. Therefore the fast Nottingham service was stopped there instead, arguably precisely because nothing else does.

Luton doesn't need any more calls by EMT. It has plenty of Thameslink trains to link to London and the Nottingham train that calls at the Airport Parkway has a 10min connection at Leicester to/from Derby and Sheffield. Particularly around the peaks, the EMT trains that stop at Luton or Bedford get filled up between there and London, discouraging use by longer distance passengers.
 

Bedpan

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I don't agree. Thameslink trains to London aren't much help if you want to go to Leicester, Derby, Sheffield etc, with just one train an hour calling at all stations, and an extra 10 minute wait at Leicester if you're going north from there on the Derby line. Maybe stopping the fast Nottinghams at Market Harborough +1 other station (Bedford, Luton, or Luton Airport Parkway) might be a solution or partial solution, but I anticipate that this could cause pathing problems.
 

edwin_m

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That might be do-able if they were prepared to sacrifice the padding in the fast Nottingham service. But the so-called "fast" Nottingham would then have four stops versus just one a few years ago, and it wasn't particularly fast even then. I guess things may change in the December timetable recast, though I don't think this changes the basic service pattern.
 

MCR247

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Tbh Nottingham's "fast" service isn't all that fast these days anyway since it has gone from a 222 with 1 stop to a HST with 2 and I don't agree that a call at Luton is necessary. Without the Corby farce it would have 2tph northbound but no Corby "deserves" an hourly direct train :roll:
 

Mugby

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Without the Corby farce it would have 2tph northbound but no Corby "deserves" an hourly direct train :roll:

I've often wondered about this and also whether East Midlands Parkway merits so many stopping services but these were political things which had so much money poured into them that they have to work, or be percieved as working even if the reality is quite different.

Many off peak services stop at EMP for just two or three passengers.
 

paddy1

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Leicester - Kettering was the biggest loser from the timetable recast, down from 2-3 trains an hour to one nowadays.

Given the above quoted reduction in frequency (and hence capacity) on this corridor, EMT should at least have done the decent thing and compensated for this by way of making the hourly St Pancas - Nottingham stopper a HST instead of a short formed Meridian, especially as there are plenty of HST sets lying around idle in the sidings at Cricklewood for most of the day once these units have done their peak southbound run into London.

What makes the situation even more absurd is the fact that EMT's original 'excuse' for the delay in introducing the Corby service was that they were waiting for the four car Meridian sets to be transferred from Hull Trains.
However, once they had acquired all these sets, they are now hardly ever used on the far less busy off peak Corby workings, which usually gets the five car Meridians.

Instead, increasingly I have noticed that many of the hourly off peak Nottingham stoppers (as well as the second hourly Sheffield services) have been downgraded to a four car Meridian, which makes the reduction in frequency/capacity on this Luton-Bedford-Kettering-Leicester corridor even more acute than it was when it was reduced to a once hourly five car Meridian.
 

MCR247

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No way could a HST keep anywhere near to a 222 on the Nottingham
stopper
 

43074

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Given the above quoted reduction in frequency (and hence capacity) on this corridor, EMT should at least have done the decent thing and compensated for this by way of making the hourly St Pancas - Nottingham stopper a HST instead of a short formed Meridian, especially as there are plenty of HST sets lying around idle in the sidings at Cricklewood for most of the day once these units have done their peak southbound run into London.

The HSTs could not keep to time on the Nottingham stopper because of their slow acceleration when compared to the Meridians (as has already been said above).

What makes the situation even more absurd is the fact that EMT's original 'excuse' for the delay in introducing the Corby service was that they were waiting for the four car Meridian sets to be transferred from Hull Trains.
However, once they had acquired all these sets, they are now hardly ever used on the far less busy off peak Corby workings, which usually gets the five car Meridians.

The 4-car Meridian sets were cascaded from Hull Trains to free up capacity in the 222/0 fleet so the Corby services could be accomodated in the diagrams. But their transfer was delayed by poor reliability of the Adelantes that replaced them at HT.

Instead, increasingly I have noticed that many of the hourly off peak Nottingham stoppers (as well as the second hourly Sheffield services) have been downgraded to a four car Meridian, which makes the reduction in frequency/capacity on this Luton-Bedford-Kettering-Leicester corridor even more acute than it was when it was reduced to a once hourly five car Meridian.

The Meridians that work the Sheffield semi-fast and Nottingham semi-fast services interwork with each other like this: London - Sheffield - London - Nottingham - London - Sheffield ... and so on. Therefore if a 4-car unit works a Sheffield service, in the same diagram it will also visit Nottingham.

Tbh Nottingham's "fast" service isn't all that fast these days anyway since it has gone from a 222 with 1 stop to a HST with 2 and I don't agree that a call at Luton is necessary. Without the Corby farce it would have 2tph northbound but no Corby "deserves" an hourly direct train :roll:

The situation is even more of a farce than you describe it: the Nottingham fasts call at Market Harborough (of all places), not Luton because the people of Market Harborough didn't want their service downgrading from a half hourly service to only the hourly Nottingham stopper.

What about a half hourly shuttle from Corby to Kettering using a 158? Then, the Nottingham 'fast' could actually be fast, Leicester would get 5tph and one of Nottingham or Derby would get 3tph to London.

That might be do-able if they were prepared to sacrifice the padding in the fast Nottingham service. But the so-called "fast" Nottingham would then have four stops versus just one a few years ago, and it wasn't particularly fast even then. I guess things may change in the December timetable recast, though I don't think this changes the basic service pattern.

The December recast accelerates the service (4 minutes from the STP - NOT fast service) and doesn't change the actual service pattern. And it ruins the easy to remember pattern of STP departures. Currently it is XX:00 to Corby, XX:15 to Nottingham, XX:25 to Sheffield, XX:30 to Nottingham and XX:55 to Sheffield.
In December it will be XX:00 Corby, XX:14 Nottingham, XX:25 Sheffield, XX:28 Nottingham and XX:57 to Sheffield (an example hour was published in the April 2013 Modern Railways).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I do think that the situation is a little silly with the hourly HST from Nottingham only stopping at Market Harborough (to give it a fast service to London I believe). If it stopped at Kettering, then with some minor rejig, it could connect quite well with the Corby stopper, opening up a whole host of other journey opportunities. Added to that, quite often the HST gets to St Pancake early and has to wait for a platform anyway if it gets a clear run.
No idea how feasible all these things are regarding paths, etc.

The hourly Nottingham HST calls at Market Harborough to negate the fact that the semi fast Derby service no longer calls there. Originally (i.e. in the DfT's draft December 2008 timetable) Market Harborough would only have had an hourly Nottingham stopper. This was because what is now the Nottingham HST, would have been a five car Meridian and would have detached from the semi-fast Derby service at Leicester (so Leicester would only have had 3tph to London). The fast Sheffield would have kept the HSTs.

I think your proposal would work, because the Corby service is often overtaken by the fast HST between Kettering North Jn and Kettering station anyway.
 
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edwin_m

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But Kettering would then have two services within a minute or two of each other, and even fewer people would use the Corby stopper because another train would leave London later and get them to Kettering at the same time.
 

Kettledrum

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I've often wondered about this and also whether East Midlands Parkway merits so many stopping services but these were political things which had so much money poured into them that they have to work, or be percieved as working even if the reality is quite different.

Many off peak services stop at EMP for just two or three passengers.

Big exaggeration here - based on my experience there's far more than that - although if you're comparing it to the commuter belt south of Luton, then yes there are fewer passengers per train, but still reasonable numbers - at all times of the day. The big problem at East Midlands Parkway is that London bound services leave at xx.35 and xx.39 - within a few minutes of each other, thereby leaving a long wait if you miss the xx.39 train. There is also the issue of high parking charges discouraging passengers from using East Midlands Parkway
 

Tomnick

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No chance of a half-hourly Corby shuttle either - it wouldn't leave enough paths on the single line for the various freights that go that way. Also, as always...where does the 158 get pinched from?
 

edwin_m

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Big exaggeration here - based on my experience there's far more than that - although if you're comparing it to the commuter belt south of Luton, then yes there are fewer passengers per train, but still reasonable numbers - at all times of the day. The big problem at East Midlands Parkway is that London bound services leave at xx.35 and xx.39 - within a few minutes of each other, thereby leaving a long wait if you miss the xx.39 train. There is also the issue of high parking charges discouraging passengers from using East Midlands Parkway

Maybe the answer is to replace the EM Parkway stop on the fast Nottingham with a Luton or Bedford stop, and stop one of the other trains at EM Parkway instead to give a more even interval. However I think EMT quite like the current arrangement because the Nottingham fast has plenty of space for their MegabusPlus passengers.
 
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