Trains blocking level crossings?

[Donny158]

Hi.

I was wondering what procedure/policy etc is on having trains blocking level crossings? This afternoon I was at my local station (with my 2yr old son watching the trains go past, which is something he loves doing and so daddy "has" to take him when "he" asks to go ) when there was signal problems in the local area. After around 20mins, a scheduled freight train come slowly through as a red signal could be seen further down the line and as the train came to halt the last 6 wagons were still covering the level crossing. As the signalling problems were still in place, this train was covering the very busy level crossing for around 10/15mins! This created huge tailbacks on the road which was compounded by the gates coming down pretty much soon as they went up due to the backlog of train funnelling through. To my very untrained eye, this appeared to be a risky move to let the freight train come and cover the level crossing in the middle of signalling problems as this train could have been held for a very long time. Anyway, to a car driver this is very frustrating. What got me wondering was why this long freight train had not been held at the previous signal where it would not have created any problems? Can anyone shed some light on what should/shouldn't happen in these sort of instances? Many thanks!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Which level crossing were you waiting at?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Depends whether the previous signal was an auto or controlled.

If it was an auto, then there's no issue about letting the train go past a yellow aspect and come to a stand at the red.

If the previous signal was a controlled signal then it may have been on "automatic" mode, yet it could have been on manual as well and the signaller may well have hoped that the preceding train would have cleared and the freight wouldn't have stayed foul of the crossing.

We have several crossings where it happens on a regular basis, Camberley, Milford, Bedhampton, Havant (thanks to the marvellous PARS!), Liss.

One morning I had a copper try reading me the riot act & telling me to move my train because it was causing major issues in Liss, after the signalling went kaput and I was standing in the up platform with a 12 car, that meant that the rear 4 was foul of the level crossing and locked it down in the middle of the morning school run, he was told in no uncertain terms to "Take a hike" & "Go Away" if you know what I mean.

It still happens and I don't care if it stands foul of the crossing or not TBQH, it's not my problem it's NR's.

 

[ComUtoR]

If the train was held before the crossing. How many points and other signals could have/would have been affected, potentially blocking many other services ?

 

[Donny158]

Which level crossing were you waiting at?

I was on a platform at a station where the road/level crossing is pretty much at the end of the platform! I've been vague about where I was as I didn't want to get anyone into any trouble if it turned out not be in the rule book of practices and procedures!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the train was held before the crossing. How many points and other signals could have/would have been affected, potentially blocking many other services ?

I could see further down the line and a passenger service pulled up at the previous signal not long after the freight pulled up. To my limited knowledge, I can't see where there would have been an issue further behind such as major junctions/level crossings etc.

 

[dk1]

When i was signalman at Brundall in the late 80s my record was 33mins with the gates closed across the road. Not much else could be done on a busy Summer Saturday with hauled trains standing foul & a juntion onto a single line with trains running out of course. Luckilly for me the box is well away from the crossing so the poor old gateman took the flack.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I was on a platform at a station where the road/level crossing is pretty much at the end of the platform! I've been vague about where I was as I didn't want to get anyone into any trouble if it turned out not be in the rule book of practices and procedures!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You won't get anyone into trouble. There are different operating arrangements depending on a number of factors such as signalling control etc, therefore it would be helpful if you could give us a clue as to location

 

[Donny158]

I was on a platform at a station where the road/level crossing is pretty much at the end of the platform! I've been vague about where I was as I didn't want to get anyone into any trouble if it turned out not be in the rule book of practices and procedures!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You won't get anyone into trouble. There are different operating arrangements depending on a number of factors such as signalling control etc, therefore it would be helpful if you could give us a clue as to location

Ah, in that case, I was at Bentley in South Yorkshire. Just outside Doncaster.

 

[Sacro]

Ah, in that case, I was at Bentley in South Yorkshire. Just outside Doncaster.

Ah yes, I've sat on a Mk4 on that crossing before.

Signals (as far as I can see) are automatic with no replacement buttons, there's no way to stop the freight without phoning him and asking nicely.

 

[Atishyou]

Was this travelling towards Doncaster from Adwick?

Or travelling towards Adwick?

I'm presuming it's towards Doncaster, as there's a signal not too far from Bentley, towards Dock Hills crossing. Bentley crossing is monitored by CCTV, so the box will be aware of what they had done.

If the freight train had been stopped just beyond Bentley, it's likely there was another train in front near Dock Hills.

 

[Tomnick]

The protecting signals for a CCTV crossing (as at Bentley) won't be automatic signals!

 

[Donny158]

Was this travelling towards Doncaster from Adwick?

Or travelling towards Adwick?

I'm presuming it's towards Doncaster, as there's a signal not too far from Bentley, towards Dock Hills crossing. Bentley crossing is monitored by CCTV, so the box will be aware of what they had done.

If the freight train had been stopped just beyond Bentley, it's likely there was another train in front near Dock Hills.

Yeah it was heading towards Doncaster!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Where a level crossing is near a station, in the direction of the station, how far past the level crossing will the track circuit covering the crossing end and the next one start?

 

[Tomnick]

Where a level crossing is near a station, in the direction of the station, how far past the level crossing will the track circuit covering the crossing end and the next one start?

Usually within a few feet of the crossing, unless (as is sometimes the case with MCBs) the track circuit covering the crossing doesn't hold the barriers down.

 

[LAX54]

Of course, one could argue that the Signaller is paid by Network Rail, not the local council, a level crossing uin theory would not be part of the Signaller's thoight process if dealing with a major failure, he will just need to keep trains moving as best he can, with as little delay as possible. On the other hand, if Signalling normally, and there is a bit of congestion, then I would expect hin to 'try' and keep the crossing clear where possible, but if it's a freight, then he may not know exactly how long it is anyway, and may think it could stand clear,

 

[jopsuk]

Where a level crossing is near a station, in the direction of the station, how far past the level crossing will the track circuit covering the crossing end and the next one start?

it can be very close! - down train stopped at Shelford

 

[Bodiddly]

Of course, one could argue that the Signaller is paid by Network Rail, not the local council, a level crossing uin theory would not be part of the Signaller's thoight process if dealing with a major failure, he will just need to keep trains moving as best he can, with as little delay as possible. On the other hand, if Signalling normally, and there is a bit of congestion, then I would expect hin to 'try' and keep the crossing clear where possible, but if it's a freight, then he may not know exactly how long it is anyway, and may think it could stand clear,

The signaller will have enough on his plate without worrying about level crossings and inconveniencing people. If I was the signaller the very fact I was annoying some selfish car drivers would give me a crumb of comfort in a mostly difficult day!

 

[Sacro]

The protecting signals for a CCTV crossing (as at Bentley) won't be automatic signals!

Yeah, true, looks like they've been upgraded from AHB to CCTV in recent years.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do some types of freight train need extra signalling sections clear? I remember hearing once that the gas tanks that used to go to Micheldever needed an extra section clear ahead of them

 

[Howardh]

How many real live gatemen/women still exist (if any)? Are all crossings now automated??

 

[tsr]

How many real live gatemen/women still exist (if any)? Are all crossings now automated??

There are still quite a few around, including in places where you really wouldn't expect it. Littlehaven, for example, has a full-barrier crossing which is electrically controlled by someone in a gate box integrated into the station building (which, entirely coincidentally, must have one of the smallest remaining ticket office windows on the NR network). This is despite the line either side and pretty much all the other level crossings in the area being controlled by Three Bridges (with the notable exception of some of the occupational crossings on the Mole Valley Line which have phones to the local box at Dorking, which always seems another oddity).

 

[DaleCooper]

How many real live gatemen/women still exist (if any)? Are all crossings now automated??

Woodcroft Road on the ECML still has a crossing keeper unless this streetview is out of date.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6...m4!1e1!3m2!1s9O6XjOLr0eEITHXbJV07OQ!2e0?hl=en

 

[Llanigraham]

Do some types of freight train need extra signalling sections clear? I remember hearing once that the gas tanks that used to go to Micheldever needed an extra section clear ahead of them

Nothing in the Rule Book now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many real live gatemen/women still exist (if any)? Are all crossings now automated??

Lots of us!!
Don't forget that not only are there crossings that are directly controlled by a Box next to the crossing, but also CCTV ones.

 

[Ediswan]

How many real live gatemen/women still exist (if any)? Are all crossings now automated??

I am told (not seen myself) that even though the manual Lincoln Road crossing between Enfield Town and Bush Hill Park is currently closed to motor vehicles, it is still staffed during the previously working hours.

 

[3141]

The signaller will have enough on his plate without worrying about level crossings and inconveniencing people. If I was the signaller the very fact I was annoying some selfish car drivers would give me a crumb of comfort in a mostly difficult day!

And as a shining example of a public servant you would of course know exactly how selfish each one of them was.

 

[Llanigraham]

And as a shining example of a public servant you would of course know exactly how selfish each one of them was.

I'm trying to work out whether that is a sarcastic reply or a nasty one!

As a signaller who has a level crossing outside the Box I can assure you that when something has gone wrong and/or there is a problem, resulting in a train across the Crossing, the last thing I will think about is what the public sitting waiting for the gates to lift are thinking. Our first responsibility is the safety of the line. Only when I've got everything under control will I then sort them out. If that takes 5 minutes or 15 it doesn't matter. If (a big if) I have time I will attempt to communicate, but not otherwise.

I suggest you read the RAIB Report about the Moreton-on-Lugg tragedy to see what I mean.

 

[Minilad]

And as a shining example of a public servant you would of course know exactly how selfish each one of them was.

Public SERVANT...could you be any more patronising if you tried

 

[Bald Rick]

Public SERVANT...could you be any more patronising if you tried

Ignoring the context of the original comment, I'm a public servant and rather proud of the fact. I do my job to serve the public and make their lives better.

 

[Yabbadabba]

There are still quite a few around, including in places where you really wouldn't expect it. Littlehaven, for example, has a full-barrier crossing which is electrically controlled by someone in a gate box integrated into the station building (which, entirely coincidentally, must have one of the smallest remaining ticket office windows on the NR network). This is despite the line either side and pretty much all the other level crossings in the area being controlled by Three Bridges (with the notable exception of some of the occupational crossings on the Mole Valley Line which have phones to the local box at Dorking, which always seems another oddity).

That is because the fringe between the electronic interlocking and the smartlock SSI interlocking fringes through the crossing and it is apparently a nightmare to wire up as a CCTV to controlled by the ASC, so it will have to wait until the line from Three Bridges to Horsham re-signalled.

 

[Bodiddly]

And as a shining example of a public servant you would of course know exactly how selfish each one of them was.

Public servant? I serve no public my friend. I serve my employer who then serves the public. I couldn't care less whether the public go on my trains or not. I still get paid every 4 weeks.
Stupid comment!