Actually, renationalisation might be helpful in that resources could be moved around the country without the present inter-company blackmail , er, sorry I mean robust contractual negotiation.
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Trains and the Rugby World Cup
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Actually, renationalisation might be helpful in that resources could be moved around the country without the present inter-company blackmail , er, sorry I mean robust contractual negotiation.
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Except of course we don't know if its a rugby fan who carried out the assault, do we?
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
As Gloucester was venue for match probably more than a co-incidence.
For the England-Wales scenario, blame the TV people - they're not bothered how anyone will get home, late-night aggro for those living around Twickenham, etc, etc, etc
I'd fully expect XC to have worked out how to juggle HSTs and Voyagers to get the maximum capacity on its evening northbound services out of Leeds, but bear in mind they also have to allow for passengers to/from the game in Birmingham.
Out of Leeds there is also the option of TPE/Northern services to York, changing there to other Virgin services, which should help to shift people.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Actually, renationalisation might be helpful in that resources could be moved around the country without the present inter-company blackmail , er, sorry I mean robust contractual negotiation.
Funny that - in the good old days of a proper railway - unified and contract free - the West Midlands would "loan" up to a dozen sets from berth to Cardiff for Rugby Valley strengthening and extra esrvices - for the cost of traincrew , fuelling and cleaning. Deal was to get them back in service or Monday AM.
Typical behaviour of a "deeply inefficient railway" as John Major said.
I used to loan "my" freight 47's for peak summer weekend workings on the same terms to Inter City.
Actually, renationalisation might be helpful in that resources could be moved around the country without the present inter-company blackmail , er, sorry I mean robust contractual negotiation.
The letter writer was on about how the TOCs were a "monopoly provider" that had failed to deliver. What else, pray tell, would a nationalised operator be but a monopoly provider?
What resources? Please tell me which TOC has spare trains coming out of its ears that can easily be shifted around, that crews are familiar with if you have any available to work the trains in the first place, etc.
SWT could perhaps give GWR a 158 or two for the day but when faced by 30,000-40,000 people to shift in a few hours, that's a drop in the ocean. And on the weekend of October 17 and 18, when there are games at both Twickenham and Cardiff both days, I expect SWT would want all its stock on home turf anyway.
Today GWR has a total of 10 extra services in and out of Cardiff on top of the normal weekday service. Just how much more are they meant to do? As I said above, lots of people in this country couldn't care less about rugby union and just want their regular trains to operate.
D1009
Established Member
Well according to Real Time Trains they are doing more, I've found 4 additional trains before the game, one from Padd and 3 from Bristol, and 9 after the game, 4 to Padd and 5 to Bristol though they've not all run yet.
GWR are also running buses between Bristol parkway and Cardiff. Unsure how the M4 coped though?
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Still loading trains up at Cardiff with delays building up due to the volume of passengers. 35.000 estimated to be cleared tonight. Improved arrangements but of course Twitterers complaining non-stop. Also delays up to 20mins due points problems Cardiff East. Buses running to Bristol Parkway to supplement the trains and 19 30 Cardiff to Portsmouth Hbr made up to 5 Cars forward from Bristol TM.
Well 10 was the figure I was told by someone within GWR earlier today and was what the BBC in Wales was also told.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-34331067
If they have managed to squeeze even more trains in, great, not that it will matter to the Twitter whiners who still seem to think shifting 35,000 people can be done just like that...
And it may turn out to have been more people than that tonight given the serious problems on the roads around Cardiff for much of the day caused by a lorry loaded with chemicals dumping its load on the A470 next to junction 32 of the M4 on the edge of Cardiff. The road was closed for eight hours - and the police advice was to use public transport...
Ah yes, the good old days - when most major sporting events took place at 2pm or 3pm on a Saturday afternoon, not 4.45pm on a weekday, with another match not many miles away a couple of hours earlier, and were probably rather easier to plan for all round as a result.
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EbbwJunction1
Established Member
I saw 67013 (leading) & 67029 (trailing) arrive at Cardiff Central yesterday afternoon at around 4.00pm with an eleven coach rake of Mark 2f coaches. I don't know where it came from, as there wasn't an announcement, but it went out ECS towards Canton a few minutes after unloading.
There was a second (empty) set containing a mixture of Mark 2 and Pullman coaches parked outside the station near the site of the old Pengam Freightliner Depot at about 25 minutes later. This was topped and tailed by 67s, but I didn't get their numbers.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I don't like to criticise TOCs in these circumstances as i am aware of the constraints they are working under but XC seem to have "knocked on" here ( see what i did there ;- ) ) by NOT having all their HST working on the Bristol - Birmingham - Leeds corridor this weekend.
Games at both Birmingham and Leeds is going to make the XC core very busy
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My god man - that us exactly the kind of joined up and logical approach to service provision that privitisation seeks to stop!
How dare you make sensible arrangements between business units on an ad hoc basis to help passengers. Where will the lawyers and bankers make their money? Where is your cross charging mechanism? Your SLA? Your massively detailed contract? your risk assessment? Your risk transfer mechanism? Your agreement on delay attribution caused by your train but our driver? Your agreement to reimburse us if your train needs some very minor repairs in our depot? Where is the 25% mark up for offering a "service"? Where is your detailed account for consumable used in servicing the train and the invoice for depot space. Where is the agreement to pay the access charges allowing your trains to run our services in another TOCs timetable slot? etc etc
No, this must not be allowed!
Games at both Birmingham and Leeds is going to make the XC core very busy
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My god man - that us exactly the kind of joined up and logical approach to service provision that privitisation seeks to stop!
How dare you make sensible arrangements between business units on an ad hoc basis to help passengers. Where will the lawyers and bankers make their money? Where is your cross charging mechanism? Your SLA? Your massively detailed contract? your risk assessment? Your risk transfer mechanism? Your agreement on delay attribution caused by your train but our driver? Your agreement to reimburse us if your train needs some very minor repairs in our depot? Where is the 25% mark up for offering a "service"? Where is your detailed account for consumable used in servicing the train and the invoice for depot space. Where is the agreement to pay the access charges allowing your trains to run our services in another TOCs timetable slot? etc etc
No, this must not be allowed!
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Er, where are these 'spare' trains coming from, irrespective of the current structure? Where are these sidings full of unused stock that can be lent out? And the crews to work them? See above for the views of several staff on turning out on such occasions.
Travel patterns have changed massively since the good old days when Tyesley had lots of three-car suburban units on hand - not least on Sundays, a day when, so far as I know, XC already has four booked jobs for its HSTs. Hard to know for sure, as the 125 Group diagrams info is a year old, but it seems fair to assume that's still the case, as XC's capacity issues aren't going away in a hurry.
I expect GWR and ATW are all ears to hear from you which TOC will be able to lend them stock to deal with events like yesterday, with a match kicking off just as the afternoon peak is starting across the country. I'm sure LM's passengers heading home from Birmingham after a day's work would be very understanding about their usual train being half its normal size as one of the pair of 172s had been sent to Wales for the day because of a rugby match...
For whatever reason, XC seems to have got off pretty much unscathed in all the wailing on Twitter, so perhaps they got extra capacity on their route about right. Though the earlier games at Gloucester on the same days probably pulled in a lot of rugby fans from Glos/Worcs who might otherwise have gone to Cardiff.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
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PHILIPE
Veteran Member
The Loco Hauled were from Paddington and have been mentioned several times on the thread already. From nowhere else. 12 33 Paddington wotked by 67013/67029 and ECS to Margam. The stock at Pengam was off 11 44 ex Paddington and worked by NOT 67s but 57306 and 57310.
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i am joking
Although XC may get some flapping twitter bashing this weekend
The Twitter bashers who hate queueing at Cardiff and who expect additional carriages can be picked off trees whenever they are wanted.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
Yes: I was thinking more about the core XC route this weekend with South Africa and Australia playing at Villa Park and Scotland at Elland Road. Italy v Canada is also at Elland Road.
Although i would have thought that TOCs would do whatever they can with their stock and not have it sat in sidings. Speaking to Welsh colleague I understand ATW kick out anything that will roll on match days.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
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Not surprising at all.
13.36 Bath Spa to Cardiff three carriages and full and standing on arrival at Bath. A few people managed to squeeze on but it left near enough a full platform at Bath still waiting. Advised to get next service to Bristol and then get the 14.21 from there to cardiff, of course this is the ex Taunton service and probably would also be packed by the time it got to Temple Meads. Luckily myself and a few others managed to sprint through Temple Meads and join the slightly late 14.06 extra HST that had been put on. Ended up being 50 odd minutes late into Cardiff thanks to running pretty slowly most of the journey and being held at Parkway for ages without any explanation or announcements. But just glad I got there tbh. Feel sorry for those who did take the advise to try to get the 14.21!
I was pleasantly surprised after the match though, only had a 45/50 minute wait and managed to make it on the 19.30 to Bath. Though the "queues" to get into the actual barrier separate queues were just mad. Having to push through just to get to the correct section of the queue for the Temple Meads trains, directed by a steward / security person standing on a wall with a megaphone! I guess there isn't much more ATW can do when you have that many people though apart from get even more barriers so the barrier separated queues actually lead onto Wood Street rather than stop on the access road into the station.
I couldn't believe that when I saw it. I get that it is busy and there is a shortage of stock etc etc, but surely there could be something they could do for South Wales bound passengers after the match? It just seems bonkers that it is physically impossible to travel back by train afterwards.
EbbwJunction1
Established Member
Thanks for that ... I knew that I should have said "I thought that the second set was topped and tailed by 67s", because that's what I thought at the time!
I suggested that renationalisation might be helpful, not that it was a complete solution.
I don't know what spares would be available under any particular set of circumstances - it's a long time since I had access to such information.
But, for example, for the Saturday games there will be stock available in some locations which - with a shuffle or two - could create capacity elsewhere. In BR days it would have been complex; with the current set-up it's effectively impossible!
e.g. in BR days moving units from Bletchley to Birmingham to release units elsewhere would have been commonplace, but now ...... ?
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Problem is that if they put on 3 trains, but 6 trainloads turned up, they'd be slated.
If they put on 3 trains, but only 200 people turned up, they'd be slated.
So "easier" just to say No Service.
Harsh. But realistic.
i am joking
Well you may be but there are a lot of people who are deadly serious about the magic cure-all elixir that renationalisation will be. Even though late-era BR was already busy practising lean operations with rolling stock worked very hard.
And on Saturday, FGW did reshuffle stock, with HSTs on Bristol-Cardiff, extra HSTs from Paddington, a Cheltenham HST hijacked at Swindon to go to Cardiff, three rakes hired from Riviera Trains, etc, ATW had everything that could move in service - as ever for a Millennium Stadium event - XC diverted/ lengthened trains - but they all have a duty to other passengers as well. As do other TOCs where stock is now worked far harder than in the good old days, seven days a week, because of the sheer number of people now using trains, not just rugby supporters.
I think you'll find LM will indeed be moving units from Northampton to Birmingham this weekend, due to the rugby and other events going in the city.
Completely agree with you on this. And who can predict what time people would get to Paddington or Reading from Twickenham anyway? People would no doubt also complain that the Valley Lines weren't being kept open all night to get them home after they reached Cardiff. Like I said before, blame the TV people for this situation.
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87015
Established Member
TOCs have jacked up prices as well of course. Five figures being paid by the RFU or whoever it is per additional train, for some at least. Easy money.
Small change compared to what the World Cup cost us to host, although it's reportedly easily clearing a profit after ticket sales, without even considering the economy benefits to England and Wales.
This World Cup has the highest percentage ticket sales of any rugby World Cup, despite larger total capacity than any previous World Cup.
It's reported there are a lot more fans from the minnow nations than ever seen before.
306024
Established Member
Cheapest last minute ticket for the All Blacks v Namibia was £125 on the official website. Over 51,000 at the Olympic Stadium but no issues at Stratford getting away after the game.
Well done to Namibia for giving it a go, there was only ever going to be one result but everyone was glad to see them score a try.
In fairness, the olympic stadium has six stations (Hackney Wick, Stratford, Stratford Int, Pudding Mill Lane, and Bow Road/Church) on around ten lines.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
The Welsh Government now as well as the Westminster Welsh Minister in Westminster is telling the TOCs to "sort it" after the long waits in the Cardiff queueing system without giving any thought as to how TOCs are limited as to how and what they can do by politicians.
atw driver
Member
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Check the aslef website now
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I even told you the percentage in favour of strike action. What have you got to say now naysayer
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
]
Things are happening but full details not yet in RTT:-
Would appear 1C36 23 30 (Sat) Paddington To Bristol TM will run to Cardiff Cen.
Also1Z87 23 59 Paddington to Cardiff additional (HST timed 280 mph but we've already had a thread about this STP glitch) Both trains via Kemble.
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BOOKED TRAINS CANCELLED DUE RUGBY.
Large crowds of people looking for trains following the Argentina v Georgia match today.
1B51 15 45 Paddington to Swansea terminated Cardiff Central and 1L94 19 29 Swansea to Paddington cancelled. HST sat at Cardiff West for 2 hours then 5B51 to Gloucester at 19+45 to work 1Z51 21 22 Gloucester to Paddington additional.
Regional trains for Cheltenham and Worcester being cut short at Gloucester to work additionals back to Bristol. Crowd control in places.
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trainophile
Established Member
I suppose there's no info available yet as to what date/s the strike will go ahead?
Is this about the 26th? The gWr site says different.
"There will be no trains to South Wales after the match.
Getting home from Paddington
The last train from London Paddington is 23.30 to Bristol Temple Meads calling at Reading, Didcot Parkway, Swindon, Chippenham, Bath Spa.
Please remember to allow plenty of time to make your journey as trains will be very busy.
Getting home from Reading
The last train from Reading to Bristol Temple Meads is at 23:03.
The last train from Reading to Swindon is 00:06."
Edit> I don't understand the note about Reading to BRI at all.
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