Trains and the Rugby World Cup

[StarCrossing]

I'm looking at trains between Bristol Parkway and Cardiff on 2nd October for Georgia vs New Zealand. Is anyone please able to tell me what this train is?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V06462/2015/10/02/advanced

 

[deltic]

Northern, Virgin, EMT and TPE are all providing extra trains from Manchester on 10th October including it looks like a HST to Liverpool and then back to Nottingham

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MAN/2015/10/10/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Kite159]

I'm looking at trains between Bristol Parkway and Cardiff on 2nd October for Georgia vs New Zealand. Is anyone please able to tell me what this train is?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V06462/2015/10/02/advanced

Timed for 75mph, which might suggest GWR are using the 57 from the Up Sleeper from Friday night for an extra (slow) service [overtaken on route by the 15:15 HST]

 

[StarCrossing]

Timed for 75mph, which might suggest GWR are using the 57 from the Up Sleeper from Friday night for an extra (slow) service [overtaken on route by the 15:15 HST]

Thanks. That would be interesting!

 

[D1009]

Wouldn't read much into the "timed for 75 mph" bit, probably the same arrangements as the two Padd Cardiff LHCS trains that ran yesterday formed of hired in sets of Mk 2f stock from Riviera Trains with top and tailed 67s.

It seems GWR are able to procure stock to supplement their services from other sources, where XC are unable to use their own.

 

[deltic]

I'm looking at trains between Bristol Parkway and Cardiff on 2nd October for Georgia vs New Zealand. Is anyone please able to tell me what this train is?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V06462/2015/10/02/advanced

The return working appears to be this http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V10333/2015/10/02/advanced

which is Pathed as Class 150/153/155/156 (Sprinter) DMU!

 

[D1009]

Is there still a speed restriction applicable to non ATP fitted rolling stock operated by GWR over ATP fitted routes? I seem to recall the sleepers used to be limited to 70 mph between Padd and Bristol for this reason.

 

[jimm]

Wouldn't read much into the "timed for 75 mph" bit, probably the same arrangements as the two Padd Cardiff LHCS trains that ran yesterday formed of hired in sets of Mk 2f stock from Riviera Trains with top and tailed 67s.

It seems GWR are able to procure stock to supplement their services from other sources, where XC are unable to use their own.

Or maybe it just wasn't practical, given that the XC HSTs not used on a Saturday are miles away from Birmingham and Cardiff at Plymouth, Leeds and Edinburgh and the ones in the north may be under maintenance.

They all need to be back in those places for Sunday's service, when four are in use (so not available to go to Cardiff). How many miles of empty running/crew hours do you think that would add up to?

On Sunday evening, XC ran the following services out of Cardiff, which hardly suggests they weren't trying:

17.26 to Manchester, 10 cars, presumably 2x221
17.45 to Nottingham, 5 cars
18.14 Cardiff-Birmingham, 5 cars
18.45 to Nottingham, 3 cars
19.45 to Leicester, 6 cars
20.45 to Birmingham, 6 cars

Plus there were five ATW services to Gloucester or Cheltenham during the evening.

 

[Envoy]

Or maybe it just wasn't practical, given that the XC HSTs not used on a Saturday are miles away from Birmingham and Cardiff at Plymouth, Leeds and Edinburgh and the ones in the north may be under maintenance.

They all need to be back in those places for Sunday's service, when four are in use (so not available to go to Cardiff). How many miles of empty running/crew hours do you think that would add up to?

On Sunday evening, XC ran the following services out of Cardiff, which hardly suggests they weren't trying:

17.26 to Manchester, 10 cars, presumably 2x221
17.45 to Nottingham, 5 cars
18.14 Cardiff-Birmingham, 5 cars
18.45 to Nottingham, 3 cars
19.45 to Leicester, 6 cars
20.45 to Birmingham, 6 cars

Plus there were five ATW services to Gloucester or Cheltenham during the evening.

Well, it looks like Cross Country High Command tried to get their act together for last Sunday. (As I said earlier, I saw just a 3 coach 170 arrive in Cardiff from Nottingham & a 4 coach Voyager from Manchester (via Gloucester) late on Saturday morning (Ireland v Canada). Presumably these were the regular configurations for these services (the Voyager would normally go to Bristol) and no attempt had been made to procure extra stock.

Assuming that XC had no more stock available, would they have been able to hire from East Midland Trains a 6 coach Meridian(s) to use on the Nottingham > Cardiff run - assuming any were parked up in Sheffield?

 

[Gemz91]

Northern, Virgin, EMT and TPE are all providing extra trains from Manchester on 10th October including it looks like a HST to Liverpool and then back to Nottingham

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MAN/2015/10/10/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

Also the Rugby League Grand Final that day at Old Trafford isn't it? That'll be a nice and busy day.

 

[jimm]

Well, it looks like Cross Country High Command tried to get their act together for last Sunday. (As I said earlier, I saw just a 3 coach 170 arrive in Cardiff from Nottingham & a 4 coach Voyager from Manchester (via Gloucester) late on Saturday morning (Ireland v Canada). Presumably these were the regular configurations for these services (the Voyager would normally go to Bristol) and no attempt had been made to procure extra stock.

Assuming that XC had no more stock available, would they have been able to hire from East Midland Trains a 6 coach Meridian(s) to use on the Nottingham > Cardiff run - assuming any were parked up in Sheffield?

So diverting Voyagers to Cardiff on Saturday wasn't attempting get their act together then? There was a 10-car 221 formation on the 17.17 from Cardiff as far as Birmingham that afternoon - there's a video of it on the XC and ATW Twitter feeds. I don't know if they were able to strengthen some of the 170 formations as they didn't put out that info on Saturday but I expect they did, as they were well aware there were matches in both Gloucester and Cardiff. And a good few people got off at Gloucester to go to the noon kick-off at Kingsholm, making room for people getting on to go to Cardiff.

As I noted back up the thread about the arrangements for Saturday - in the quote below - this was what was planned by XC, again with ATW services running between Cheltenham/Gloucester and Cardiff on top. How many more trains should they be running/could they run? The track layout at Cardiff is pretty restrictive operationally and there were plenty of FGW extras to fit in as well, on top of FGW and ATW's regular services.

A quick search in a journey planner shows that this coming Saturday a couple of the Manchester-Bristol Voyagers will be diverted to Cardiff to back up the 170s, giving 0930, 0942, 1030, 1042 and 1130 trains from Birmingham to Cardiff, with extras in the return direction as well after the Ireland v Canada game giving 1645, 1717, 1745,1820 and 1845 departures.

I'm afraid that even if they could get their hands on a Meridian, they would also need to hire a lot of EMT staff to operate it.

 

[PHILIPE]

The return working appears to be this http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V10333/2015/10/02/advanced

which is Pathed as Class 150/153/155/156 (Sprinter) DMU!

14 33 ex Paddington returns 23 34, DRS, worked by 2x57 (DRS). Never read too much into the Timing Loads to try and establish what is diagrammed. GWR (Got it right !!!) Sleeper 57s not involved at all

 

[JamesP]

Unfortunately I am unable to be flexible in my commute so will have to brave the scrum of fans. I'll take a small hidden camera with me to film any rasict abuse if that happens.

Oh dear.

Aren't you the one who won't get on a train if it doesn't have First Class?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Will be interesting to compare the experiences I'll have this Wednesday (Australia v Fiji at Cardiff) to what I'll have on Saturday (Wales v England at Twickenham). Last game I did at Twickenham (Wales v England in the six nations in 2014) it seems a lot better organised and a generally less stressful experience than when I last was in the queues outside Cardiff Central after a match. Guessing that is to do with the greater number of destinations available from Cardiff and the fact the stadium is right on the doorstep of the station so crowds can build up a bit quicker?

 

[AndyW33]

Assuming that XC had no more stock available, would they have been able to hire from East Midland Trains a 6 coach Meridian(s) to use on the Nottingham > Cardiff run - assuming any were parked up in Sheffield?

EMT don't have any 6 car Meridians - they come in 4, 5, and 7 car lengths, and they don't stable Meridians or HSTs at Sheffield.
Meridian operated services that start or finish their day at Sheffield run ECS from/to Derby Etches Park.
If there was a spare unit on Etches Park, XC staff don't sign 222s (which are not identical to 220/221s) so they'd need EMT staff to work them, with XC staff alongside for route knowledge.

 

[OneOffDave]

I must confess I'm not looking forward to going EUS - MKC on the 1st and 6th Oct when there are matches there. It would appear there's only extra capacity put on later to get people home from the match. Given how crowded the rush hour services are on a normal day, it should be more than a bit 'interesting'. Unfortunately I'm not able to shift my work times that day either

 

[D1009]

Or maybe it just wasn't practical, given that the XC HSTs not used on a Saturday are miles away from Birmingham and Cardiff at Plymouth, Leeds and Edinburgh and the ones in the north may be under maintenance.

They all need to be back in those places for Sunday's service, when four are in use (so not available to go to Cardiff). How many miles of empty running/crew hours do you think that would add up to?

On Sunday evening, XC ran the following services out of Cardiff, which hardly suggests they weren't trying:

17.26 to Manchester, 10 cars, presumably 2x221
17.45 to Nottingham, 5 cars
18.14 Cardiff-Birmingham, 5 cars
18.45 to Nottingham, 3 cars
19.45 to Leicester, 6 cars
20.45 to Birmingham, 6 cars

Plus there were five ATW services to Gloucester or Cheltenham during the evening.

Yes, there is probably more spare stock around nationally on Sunday than there is in the week. XC have been using four HSTs on Saturday on their normal routes right through the peak summer, I'd have thought had they continued with that pattern into the Rugby World Cup period, Voyagers would have been released for strengthening purposes, but that is viewing the situation with the benefit of hindsight.

While the World Cup has been known about for four years, the whole industry has been taken by surprise by the interest and amount of travel it generated on that first Saturday. As far as I am aware the last time FGW and other TOCs used stock from charter operators to supplement their normal services was during the 2012 Olympics, and that was an initiative from the organisers. Perhaps something along those lines will be the best approach should there be another event on this scale.

 

[jimm]

Yes, there is probably more spare stock around nationally on Sunday than there is in the week. XC have been using four HSTs on Saturday on their normal routes right through the peak summer, I'd have thought had they continued with that pattern into the Rugby World Cup period, Voyagers would have been released for strengthening purposes, but that is viewing the situation with the benefit of hindsight.

While the World Cup has been known about for four years, the whole industry has been taken by surprise by the interest and amount of travel it generated on that first Saturday. As far as I am aware the last time FGW and other TOCs used stock from charter operators to supplement their normal services was during the 2012 Olympics, and that was an initiative from the organisers. Perhaps something along those lines will be the best approach should there be another event on this scale.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, I doubt there is much more the railways can do about the Cardiff scenario, where their problems are only exacerbated by the inadequacies of the M4 through Newport, which pushes yet more custom towards the rails. And talking of the roads, all the park-and-ride parking offered around Cardiff was apparently fully booked in advance, so did the organisers of that also fail with their many years of planning? P+R for a couple of the other games is also sold out already - is anyone demanding lessons must be learned there?

Short of their premium dining sets - which they may not be too keen to see used for such operations - there's not much Riviera Trains can do to provide stock over and above what FGW already had on hire last Saturday.

ATW has everything that can move out on such occasions anyway, as well as the charter stock FGW chucked in pretty much every extra HST and dmu that it could scrape up, with others diverted from Cheltenham services on Saturday and Avonmouth trains canned and it's all very well saying XC should just keep using HSTs on Saturdays but there isn't a game in Cardiff this weekend, or the one after, with capacity instead potentially being needed around Leeds, Birmingham, Newcastle, Leicester... but who knows where the supporters will be travelling from, looking at the teams playing in those fixtures. And with the staggered kick-off times, can you get the trains in the right places at the right times anyway in the case of the days when Leeds and Birmingham both host games?

I really don't envy the likes of Northern and TPE when it's their turn - they don't have anything like an HST available to begin with - but then they've had four years to plan for it...:roll:

The TOCs are also trying to run their usual services for the many people in this country who couldn't care less about the rugby anyway. A number of whom were pretty hacked off to find their Gloucester-London train and Avonmouth branch trains cancelled due to it last weekend.

 

[AlanFry1]

Hi, I don't usually use the main lines from Waterloo, but why couldn't they double the capacity between Ldn Waterloo and Putney as there is already four tracks? Waterloo int still has three terminus platforms, Clapham two spare and vauxhall two spare

 

[Darandio]

Oh dear.

Aren't you the one who won't get on a train if it doesn't have First Class?

Yup, the one and only.

 

[northernchris]

I really don't envy the likes of Northern and TPE when it's their turn - they don't have anything like an HST available to begin with - but then they've had four years to plan for it...:roll:

The TOCs are also trying to run their usual services for the many people in this country who couldn't care less about the rugby anyway. A number of whom were pretty hacked off to find their Gloucester-London train and Avonmouth branch trains cancelled due to it last weekend.

Indeed, TPE don't have any spare stock - they struggle enough for events such as York races. Northern should have a little more flexibility on Saturdays although I guess it will be difficult to predict where extra capacity will be needed.

 

[jimm]

It was only a matter of time before the politicians weighed in.

Some helpful and detailed advice from the Welsh Secretary that the TOCs should 'fix it' and that there should not be any finger-pointing - except from him of course.

It seems he didn't have time to talk about the jams on the M4 or all the park-and-ride car parks being booked out - which is the case again for today's game.

And he doesn't seem to realise XC also runs trains to Cardiff.

Welsh Secretary Stephen Crabb has delivered a two-word message to train companies after Rugby World Cup fans expressed dismay about rail services: “Fix it.”

Mr Crabb spoke to the bosses of First Great Western and Arriva UK Trains and set out what was at stake for Wales and the Welsh capital.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-secretary-tells-train-companies-10109063

And a couple of letters to the Western Mail, one says that ATW should do a better job of explaining how the queuing system functions, the other says that the answer to match-day congestion at Cardiff Central is... renationalisation.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/western-mail-letters-tuesday-september-10105465

 

[PHILIPE]

To be honest, how do you manage to cope with up to 45,000 passengers waiting to join trains as was the case on Saturday. Extra trains can't be the answer - where do you path them, especially if trains are sitting in platforms in excess of a normal dwell time due to having to wait for their passengers to be admitted to the platform and then such an excessive (full and standing) number joining thus delaying other trains. Watch this space.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The stampede has started:-
100 people at Bristol T.M. awaiting train to Cardiff
12 07 Taunton to Cardiff not calling Filton Abbeywood - train wedged.

 

[gareth950]

Atw aslef strike ballot result in 92.1% in favour of strike action dates to be announced shortly I expect October 1st Wales v fiji to be the first one up

So no news at all anywhere about a strike on ATW next week, unless something is announced by the end of the working day today, are we to assume that ASLEF have decided against strike action?

Are there any reliable sources at all (other than unsubstantiated rumours on these forums) to back up the claims of ATW drivers walking out in the next few weeks?

 

[craigybagel]

So no news at all anywhere about a strike on ATW next week, unless something is announced by the end of the working day today, are we to assume that ASLEF have decided against strike action?

Are there any reliable sources at all (other than unsubstantiated rumours on these forums) to back up the claims of ATW drivers walking out in the next few weeks?

Two separate posters have said that the ballot took place and I am happy to make that three. Until anything else gets declared publicly that is as far as I am prepared to go.

 

[BestWestern]

It was only a matter of time before the politicians weighed in.

Some helpful and detailed advice from the Welsh Secretary that the TOCs should 'fix it' and that there should not be any finger-pointing - except from him of course.

It seems he didn't have time to talk about the jams on the M4 or all the park-and-ride car parks being booked out - which is the case again for today's game.

And he doesn't seem to realise XC also runs trains to Cardiff.



http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-secretary-tells-train-companies-10109063

And a couple of letters to the Western Mail, one says that ATW should do a better job of explaining how the queuing system functions, the other says that the answer to match-day congestion at Cardiff Central is... renationalisation.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/western-mail-letters-tuesday-september-10105465

Again, this is where TOCs need to actually stand up for themselves and explain their situation, rather than just issuing wishy-washy apologies and bending over ready for the shafting. Wouldn't it be refreshing if ATW responded by suggesting that if it is so unsatisfactory perhaps this man and his fellow politicians should do something about it?

 

[alb1]

Again, this is where TOCs need to actually stand up for themselves and explain their situation, rather than just issuing wishy-washy apologies and bending over ready for the shafting. Wouldn't it be refreshing if ATW responded by suggesting that if it is so unsatisfactory perhaps this man and his fellow politicians should do something about it?

I would love them to do this and prove just how out of touch he is, especially if ATW, GWR and XC put on a united front.

Interestingly, there were loads of Stewards and other security staff at Cardiff Central during this morning's peak but none inside the station itself that I saw when changing there about 5 min ago.

 

[Mag_seven]

So on Saturday night there are no late night trains from London to South Wales which means that Welsh fans from South Wales will have to stay the night in London. Sunday could therefore be interesting as FGW (sorry GWR), are just running their normal hourly service from Padd to South Wales.

Even more interesting could be services from Leeds to Scotland on Sunday afternoon after the Scotland match. Just one additional service planned (VTEC HST) - everyone else will have to cram aboard a XC Voyager!

 

[jimm]

I would love them to do this and prove just how out of touch he is, especially if ATW, GWR and XC put on a united front.

Interestingly, there were loads of Stewards and other security staff at Cardiff Central during this morning's peak but none inside the station itself that I saw when changing there about 5 min ago.

I'd hope that by now they are all outside putting the queuing system into action as the game has finished.

 

[PHILIPE]

17 40 Cheltenham to Southampton delayed 30 mins at Gloucester waiting a replacement guard due to the guard being assaulted. Police attending. There are hooligans following Rugby as well as Soccer. Hope not too badly hurt.