Train was too full to board so missed connection

[startingaparty]

Hello. I'll try and keep this as short as possible but it's quite complex...

• I have a Weekly Season Ticket from Buckshaw Parkway to Manchester.
• On Saturday 26th January, I attempted to board the 18:26 Transpennine Express service from Manchester Piccadilly to Preston, where I intended to change and get the last Northern Rail Replacement Bus to Buckshaw Parkway (what the Northern website told me to do).
• The 18:26 service was too full and the staff on the platform refused to let anyone else on board.
• I spoke to a member of staff at the platform about my situation and they said I needed to speak to a member of Northern staff. They didn't know where I could find one.
• I went to the main ticketing office at Piccadilly and they said there's nothing they can do because they're from Virgin Trains.
• I then went to the information counter and the lady said I'd have to contact Northern and suggested I get the 19:26 train to Preston and "make my own way home" from there, which I did.
• I arrived at Preston and booked a taxi back home which cost me £16 exactly. I obtained a receipt.

Basically, where do I stand here? I shouldn't have to pay for a season ticket and then be expected to pay for additional transport costs on top of that because the railway failed to get me to my destination. What should I do?

Thank you!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hello. I'll try and keep this as short as possible but it's quite complex...

• I have a Weekly Season Ticket from Buckshaw Parkway to Manchester.
• On Saturday 26th January, I attempted to board the 18:26 Transpennine Express service from Manchester Piccadilly to Preston, where I intended to change and get the last Northern Rail Replacement Bus to Buckshaw Parkway (what the Northern website told me to do).
• The 18:26 service was too full and the staff on the platform refused to let anyone else on board.
• I spoke to a member of staff at the platform about my situation and they said I needed to speak to a member of Northern staff. They didn't know where I could find one.
• I went to the main ticketing office at Piccadilly and they said there's nothing they can do because they're from Virgin Trains.
• I then went to the information counter and the lady said I'd have to contact Northern and suggested I get the 19:26 train to Preston and "make my own way home" from there, which I did.
• I arrived at Preston and booked a taxi back home which cost me £16 exactly. I obtained a receipt.

Basically, where do I stand here? I shouldn't have to pay for a season ticket and then be expected to pay for additional transport costs on top of that because the railway failed to get me to my destination. What should I do?

Thank you!

Contact TransPennine Express (preferably in writing, i.e. email or letter) and make a claim for delay compensation (assuming you were delayed sufficiently to qualify), and ask them to reimburse you for the taxi fare.

It's not on that Northern are striking, but in this case it is TransPennine Express that are squarely at fault, as it is the overcrowding of their service that has led to you missing the last connection.

 

[Starmill]

For what it's worth, for future travel, you can expect all TransPennine Express services to be full and standing between Manchester Piccadilly and Preston on Northern strike days. A proportion of these (I don't know how many, but more than one or two) will be so busy that not everyone will be able to board. They're all formed of 4 coaches so there's no possibility of accommodating on a train everybody who would usually travel.

The correct action would have been for TransPennine Express to organise you a taxi when it became clear you'd be stranded otherwise. I'm surprised this didn't happen, as I've heard lots of people being put into taxis by TransPennine Express on Northern strike days even for very long journeys e.g. Leeds to Hull or Manchester to Penrith.

 

[robbeech]

Just to add, poor show by Virgin at Picadilly too. Clearly ignoring 28.2 to a point, though you could have got closer to home I guess so they weren’t the last people to be able to help.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

As an aside, Manchester to Buckshaw tickets are not normally valid on TPE via Preston, and there is some ambiguity whether ticket acceptance is in place.

Journey planners will normally offer invalid routes where a bus service forms any part of the itinerary however.

Before Christmas Preston was made a pick up only stop on services after 1626, as people were being left behind who were travelling to Carlisle and Scotland as the trains were full of people going to Preston. These meant journeys to Buckshaw just weren't shown as possible as there was no train to Preston in the journey planners. They appear to have stopped this since Christmas however.

 

[Starmill]

Just to add, poor show by Virgin at Picadilly too. Clearly ignoring 28.2 to a point, though you could have got closer to home I guess so they weren’t the last people to be able to help.

Indeed. This:

I went to the main ticketing office at Piccadilly and they said there's nothing they can do because they're from Virgin Trains.

is a very serious dereliction of their duty.

Not that I am particularly surprised to hear about it.

These meant journeys to Buckshaw just weren't shown as possible as there was no train to Preston in the journey planners.

True, but Manchester to Preston journeys were shown on sites such as National Rail Enquiries... changing at Lancaster!

They appear to have stopped this since Christmas however.

Indeed. Although announcements at Manchester Piccadilly say there are no services to Preston "after 1630" - just to add to the confusion.

 

[yorkie]

Journey planners will normally offer invalid routes where a bus service forms any part of the itinerary however.

Where a journey starts or finishes with a rail replacement bus, journey planners are specifically instructed to check the permitted routes for the rail portion of the journey only.

 

[startingaparty]

Hi all,

I have attached the full response. Where should I go from here? They're saying the staff on the train thought the train was not too full when it clearly was and the staff were telling passengers to not attempt to board. It was crammed to the doors!

Thank you for your correspondence regarding the 18:26 service between Manchester Piccadilly and Buckshaw Parkway. I was sorry to learn of the difficulties you have been experiencing due to crowding on your journey.

Like most train operators, overcrowding has become an increasing issue for us through our previous franchise. Our fleet size has largely remained the same, however customer footfall has increased massively over recent years. Certain services will inevitably be much more popular than others and so our train planners work hard to ensure that we deliver the appropriate amount of capacity where the demand exists.

We are introducing three new types of rolling stock into our fleet. The first of which will be our our CAF Class 397, which will be twelve five carriage electric trains, which will operate on our Manchester and Liverpool to Glasgow and Edinburgh services, via Preston. These carriages will come into service as from early 2019, with the testing phase starting in the Spring of 2018.

The other two carriage types are the Hitachi 802 Bi-Mode trains, and the CAF Mark 5 Coaches. The 19 sets of 5 802 Bi-Modes carriages will be able to operate on both electric and diesel power, and will operate between Liverpool, Newcastle and the Scottish routes, as well as Manchester to Newcastle. The CAF Mark 5 will be loco-hauled, and there will be 13 sets of 5 car carriages. Further details regarding the new additions to our fleet can be found on our website:

www.tpexpress.co.uk/news/2016/10/countdown-to-new-trains-for-the-north-begins/

I appreciate that this is not a short term solution at this stage, but I hope that I have been able to assure you that we understand the current situation our customers face and that the matter is in hand. I have made sure that your comments in your correspondence have been made available for the attention of the relevant managers.

After checking our logs I can see that staff on the train service did not feel it necessary to stop passengers from boarding the train. Therefore I am unable to offer any compensation for this journey.

Once again thank you for contacting TransPennine Express and thank you for bringing the details of your experiences to our attention.

 

[Starmill]

I would write back to them very politely thanking them for the information about their plans and all of that stuff they've said.

Then, return to the issue and say something like: As I referred to in my previous email, your service wasn't available to me to board as a result of the serious overcrowding it faced. For clarity, it wasn't the on-train staff who prevented me from boarding, but rather the station staff. I'm pleased to hear about your plans to reduce the problem of overcrowding in future. However, on this occasion, I was prevented from boarding due to overcrowding, and the actions of the station staff made this clear. As a result, I was left stranded with no way to reach my destination, even though I had paid for a ticket.

Then conclude by asking them again, politely, for whatever resolution you asked for in your first email.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi all,

I have attached the full response. Where should I go from here? They're saying the staff on the train thought the train was not too full when it clearly was and the staff were telling passengers to not attempt to board. It was crammed to the doors!

So, in other words they are making out you are lying. Brilliant.

Try asking them for a copy of the station and/or on-train CCTV. That ought to set the record straight...

 

[Starmill]

So, in other words they are making out you are lying. Brilliant.

Try asking them for a copy of the station and/or on-train CCTV. That ought to set the record straight...

To the OP, I would advise against getting angry or taking the response as offensive. Sure, the person who wrote it may well have been implying that they thought you were lying. But they probably didn't, and are actually just not that great at their job, or have been given poor tools to work with. Instead responding politely reiterating the point might get you somewhere.

If they deny what you say clearly, then you could try asking for thr CCTV. I doubt it will get you anywhere though.

 

[radamfi]

Is there really a log of every full train?

 

[causton]

Is there really a log of every full train?

At least on my local line, conductors are supposed to report to Control whenever a train is Full/Standing or Declassified First Class - for obvious reasons so it can be verified when people claim! It probably doesn't happen 100% of the time, otherwise they'd be calling up for every peak train in some places!

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least on my local line, conductors are supposed to report to Control whenever a train is Full/Standing or Declassified First Class - for obvious reasons so it can be verified when people claim! It probably doesn't happen 100% of the time, otherwise they'd be calling up for every peak train in some places!

There does seem to be a variation between what people see as the meaning of "full and standing" - I always thought it meant "you can't fit another person on" but I've seen it declared a number of times recently on trains that were nowhere near that.

 

[Starmill]

There does seem to be a variation between what people see as the meaning of "full and standing" - I always thought it meant "you can't fit another person on" but I've seen it declared a number of times recently on trains that were nowhere near that.

I always thought it meant "all seats are taken such that at least one person cannot sit".

I'd always used the term "crush loaded" to describe what you mean, where people cannot board.

Most commonly I see it applied to trains where there are a significant number of people standing and all seats taken, but still with room for more standees to board if they wish.

 

[gray1404]

Really poor reply from TPE. You should reply to them for sure!

 

[najaB]

So, in other words they are making out you are lying. Brilliant.

I read it as "there's no train crew report and that's what we use to determine compensation" - as noted above there's a wide variation in what passengers consider too full to board.

To the OP, write back making it clear that it was the station staff who advised not to attempt boarding.

 

[Mag_seven]

There does seem to be a variation between what people see as the meaning of "full and standing" - I always thought it meant "you can't fit another person on" but I've seen it declared a number of times recently on trains that were nowhere near that.

Its not often helped by passengers crowding round the vestibules when there can be plenty of standing space if people move down the train.

 

[Hadders]

I've seen the effects of the Northern strike on loadings on TPE and TfW and can assure you it isn't pretty. Every inch of space used, not just passengers crowding around the vestibules.

When I make a claim because it's too full I use the term 'physically unable to board' rather than 'full and standing'. I've not had a claim denied.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always thought it meant "all seats are taken such that at least one person cannot sit".

I'd always used the term "crush loaded" to describe what you mean, where people cannot board.

I probably would as well, but always thought the former was a "railway speak" term used to report the latter on the PIS without it sounding too nasty but with the suggestion that you really might want to consider a different train because you might not get on that one.

 

[causton]

There does seem to be a variation between what people see as the meaning of "full and standing" - I always thought it meant "you can't fit another person on" but I've seen it declared a number of times recently on trains that were nowhere near that.

Same, as I believe I have seen you say very recently; I have had a guard apologising for the overcrowding and had 4 seats to myself 11 and a half coaches from the buffers!

 

[Mathew S]

Just to complicate this somewhat, on recent Saturdays TPE Scottish services from Manchester Piccadilly have been advertised as not calling at Preston (specifically because of the overcrowding issues, as I understand it). It may be, therefore, that a pick-up only restriction was in force for the Preston stop and that, as a result, the ticket wasn't valid for the journey in the first place.
I'm not 100% certain of the details, or correctness of that, so do correct me please someone if I'm wrong.

 

[Starmill]

They have since Christmas seemed to have open calls at Preston. Yesterday special announcements were being played at Manchester Piccadilly that said Northern Only tickets are not valid on TransPennine Express between Manchester and Preston.

 

[robbeech]

Is there really a log of every full train?

Not a proper one as we can see here.

Its not often helped by passengers crowding round the vestibules when there can be plenty of standing space if people move down the train.

I agree, however as it appears to be station staff that have caused the issue here it’s a difficult one to sort. Deliberately so no doubt. And so begins the increasingly familiar bounce between TOCs passing the blame.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same, as I believe I have seen you say very recently; I have had a guard apologising for the overcrowding and had 4 seats to myself 11 and a half coaches from the buffers!

I had that this very evening. I was sitting in the front coach of the 1714 (or thereabouts) from New St to Euston this evening (8.350 with another 4 added at Northampton), and the guard announced that if anyone was standing there was more room further back. In the front coach there was almost no unit of seating with more than one person in it - the bay of 6 to my right had one person in that, at least, and nobody was sitting next to me. So it looks like there might have been some muppets crowding into one coach somewhere in the middle - their loss and my gain, I guess

 

[kristiang85]

In the couple of times in the past I've been unable to get on a train due to it being too crammed, I take a timestamped photo on my phone of the situation and upload that with the delay repay claim. I've yet to have any rejections.

 

[pedr]

The one time this happened to me (where it was a guard blowing a whistle with dozens of passengers still on the platform due to an earlier cancelled train) I tweeted the train company which at least recorded my situation at the time. Taking a photo is a good idea though.

 

[sefton]

As they have only referred to checking with the on-train staff and did not check with the platform staff then they clearly do not consider what the platform staff say is relevant.

I would write back asking whether they are really suggesting you should ignore the directions being given by platform staff not to board a train. Or would they like to speak to the platform staff and reconsider their decision.

 

[startingaparty]

An update:

I replied directly to TPE's email saying they didn't believe the train was too full. I reiterated that it was and that I was unable to get to my final destination. I received £16 worth of rail vouchers in the post this morning which covered the cost of my taxi fare. Overall, I'm happy with the outcome but it's a shame they didn't do that initially.

 

[yorkie]

That's good to hear that you got a good outcome in the end; thanks for letting us know.