Train travel - unenjoyable

[nw1]

By the latest, January 2025 (so up to 2 years), sadly!

But realistically, May or June 2024, I suspect, no-one will want a Christmas/winter election again.

Quite apart from that, I suspect there will be a general strike if they insist on hanging on until 2025!

 

[py_megapixel]

The fact that we have multiple *rail enthusiasts* saying they're give up train travel and are getting driving licences should be some food for thought for the "they'll all come back" people.

Just another perspective:

It could be viewed in a more optimistic light. Perhaps people are willing to give up train travel so readily now because they believe the chaos is temporary, and they might as well take a break while it blows over and come back in a few years once things have improved. I think if people really believed there was an permanent threat to the viability of rail travel, there would be a lot more of people talking along the lines of wanting to do things by train now while they still can.

Not sure I agree fully with either extreme of interpretation to be honest.

 

[Edsmith]

But realistically, May or June 2024, I suspect, no-one will want a Christmas/winter election again.

Quite apart from that, I suspect there will be a general strike if they insist on hanging on until 2025!

I don't think any change of government is going to bring the railway back up to speed, most of the problems seem to be a legacy of the pandemic. I still use Southeastern quite regularly and they're generally not too bad but for journies further afield it's the car every time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==

Just another perspective:

It could be viewed in a more optimistic light. Perhaps people are willing to give up train travel so readily now because they believe the chaos is temporary, and they might as well take a break while it blows over and come back in a few years once things have improved. I think if people really believed there was an permanent threat to the viability of rail travel, there would be a lot more of people talking along the lines of wanting to do things by train now while they still can.

Not sure I agree fully with either extreme of interpretation to be honest.

That's a good point and I think things will gradually improve.

 

[LTJ87]

I’ve found the strikes have made contending with engineering works and other disruption harder.

A recent example, I was recently due to travel from Nottingham to London. The MML was blocked due to weekend engineering works, so I deferred my journey to Monday 12th December.

Due to a freight train derailment the line was blocked and my booked train was cancelled. I couldn’t defer my trip by another day due to industrial action.

Fortunately the line reopened and I was able to travel but the strikes create a lot of additional uncertainty.

I’ve done similar journeys in recent months and something always seems to go wrong. I’ve found setting up journey alerts on WhatsApp essential.

I’ve also had to change plans to travel to Nottingham tomorrow (Friday) because there are no direct trains from Birmingham after 5.49pm.

The car is not really an option for me, but for longer trips from London next year, I may look at flying.

 

[Bantamzen]

The fact that we have multiple *rail enthusiasts* saying they're give up train travel and are getting driving licences should be some food for thought for the "they'll all come back" people.

I think a lot will depend on the type of passenger. The enthusiasts and the commuters with no other options probably will trickle back in time. But the short distance leisure seeking travellers will probably stay away a lot longer, especially those who have buses with the £2 fair caps applied. Certainly around my neck of the woods the buses have filled up nicely since it's introduction, and if the bus companies have any opportunities they may seek to exploit this further. Whilst not easy, increasing their potential capacity is going to be less difficult than on the rails. Time will tell of course, but the TOCs in some areas would do well to look nervously on.

 

[kristiang85]

The fact that we have multiple *rail enthusiasts* saying they're give up train travel and are getting driving licences should be some food for thought for the "they'll all come back" people.

Quite. Reading through this thread is a depressing experience really, especially on a rail forum with both workers and passengers. It just shows what an abject state the industry is in. But I also wholeheartedly agree with everything said here.

 

[bramling]

Just another perspective:

It could be viewed in a more optimistic light. Perhaps people are willing to give up train travel so readily now because they believe the chaos is temporary, and they might as well take a break while it blows over and come back in a few years once things have improved. I think if people really believed there was an permanent threat to the viability of rail travel, there would be a lot more of people talking along the lines of wanting to do things by train now while they still can.

Not sure I agree fully with either extreme of interpretation to be honest.

The theme I pick up is that a lot of people would be only too pleased to use trains, however are being put off from doing so by various negative factors.

The other thing to bear in mind is it isn’t just rail that’s in a dire state. At this moment it feels like pretty much every institution in this country is dysfunctional. I was discussing this whilst having my hair cut yesterday, it was so refreshing to be in a place which literally hasn’t changed since the 80s, even the price hasn’t gone up by that much. Such throwbacks to an age where everything worked well seem few and far between in this country at the moment.

Unfortunately I can’t see much changing until this horrific government is booted out. In the meantime it seems we just have to suffer being humoured by the likes of Sunak.

 

[Western 52]

Plenty of negative comments on the current situation on our railway, and now we get the unwelcome, but expected, fare rise announcement. Yes it's below current inflation rates, but will do nothing to improve perception of the railway for most people.

 

[455refurb]

My employer now mandates against rail travel for business, has ended its contract with our business rail ticketing supplier, and we have a new deal with Enterprise car hire. This is not a small company, either.

This happened after our Managing Director was stranded in Liverpool by Avanti and missed an important business meeting as a result, the increase in strikes, and several other incidents of people or products being in the wrong place caused by the railway in quick succession.

Road and Air are now ahead of Rail in the travel policy, you can still take a train if it's the quickest and most direct option, and claim back. The environmental impact of this has been commented on but it's just felt by most people in the company as a necessary evil due to the extreme unreliability of the railway at the moment.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Unfortunately I can’t see much changing until this horrific government is booted out

Have no wish to get on to politics, but all I would (politely) say, to anyone, is be careful what you wish for. Some of us remember the power cuts back in the early 70's, days of walking around holding candles, and no telly to watch. Thankfully (we) still had a coal fire, so the heating side of things wasn't too bad. Very few people today have a standalone source of heat and power.

 

[Irascible]

Deterioration is the word, but the buses may be deteriorating due to their inability to pick up the slack from a deteriorating train service.

Buses were deteriorating before the current rail crisis - to be honest transport here is actually quite well managed in general as far as the county council can take it, it's just always been "best we can do with what we have" other than when a political point is needed. Shifting to cars for commuting here just isn't gonig to work ( assuming you work in Exeter anyway ) - there's nowhere to put them. Getting out of the county on a bus is ... interesting, these days.

 

[Thirteen]

Personally, I would no more give up on the idea of railways because of their present situation than I would give up on my wife just because she became ill. Things aren't too bad here in GWR land and overall, hopefully we'll have a Labour government before too long. Anyhow I've been very fond of European railways since my first TGV ride in 1995. In terms of rail-fan-experience it's been downhill all the way since Mark 1 LHCS was no longer the norm, but time does march on.

I agree, the situation at the moment isn't great but the railways aren't likely to be ripped up and turned into roads or housing by this Government or any Government.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It is so inconvenient and tedious to not be boarding the main train for my journey until up to 2 hours after leaving home after only having travelled around 10 miles.

Be right in suggesting that sub-optimal connections / interchange opportunities like mentioned here were a key factor which resulted in reduced patronage which then "justified" the closure of relatively many already lightly-used railway lines back in the 1950s/1960s?

 

[miklcct]

Unfortunately the endless rail strikes have already made my two recent beach trips (to Christchurch and to Brighton) seriously cost overrun as I had to use buses / coaches to complete my journey.

As a response I have already adjusted my travel plan to reduce long-distance travel where the railway is a near-monopoly. I still have one long trip booked next year (on the 2nd of January, involving 5 changes at St Albans, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester and Chesterfield just to go between two stations on the Midland Main Line using a combination of tickets) but it will be likely the last until the railways return to a good service.

I will still travel within the London commuter area by rail but anywhere further beyond I will avoid travelling, unless it's for a high-level major event or if I can find enough people to share a car to be affordable.

 

[twpsaesneg]

I work in the rail industry on the infrastructure side. As such I get no discount on train travel (nor do I expect one!), nor does the company I work for have any incentive to use rail travel over other modes, although it is encouraged for environmental reasons - provided the cost and time is similar. My job regularly requires me to travel extensive distances across the country, and from a leisure perspectives I occasionally have weekends away in cities around the UK.

I live in a semi-rural village which has a poor bus service that connects to the nearby town with a station but does not actually serve the station itself, requiring a 1.5 mile walk. Realistically I therefore need to use my car to get to the station. Despite this 6-7 years ago I would happily catch the train to get to my meetings and even some site visits as I knew I could spend the time productively working, get a cup of tea from the trolley and enjoy the experience. This is on a regional service, not InterCity.

Since COVID, the journeys I have attempted have been far poorer, with less seating available and therefore less chance of a seat (and therefore my ablity to work), the virtual withdrawal of the guard into the back cab meaning that anti-social behaviour has increased, and the removal of catering facilities. There are also plans afoot to change the service meaning I would need to change, thereby making me less productive.

In contrast, I am able to get into my car (which is paid for, insured and taxed anyway as it is essential to have where I live) and drive to the same offices / sites in either the same or considerably less time than the train, in comfort. Even using personal mileage expenses rates this generally works out cheaper than the station parking + rail ticket. I am able to change my plans easily, go to a different site if necessary and have ample space / storage for PPE and tools & equipment.

For leisure travel it becomes even less financially sensible, and if taking more than a small suitcase its frankly a pain, especially where changes of train are required. I generally expect at least one cancellation or major delay en-route now, which means we lose time at our destination and we end up with a fractious child to entertain whilst we wait for the next train, often on a cold and unwelcoming platform.

Unless rail travel becomes better value, has a better on-board experience than a car, or is significantly quicker why would I ever go back?

 

[Matt_pool]

Living in Liverpool I started to avoid using the train at the weekends a long time ago. My local station is served by Northern and at the weekend, if the trains aren't delayed or cancelled, a 2 carriage 150 or 156 will turn up that is full to standing, and probably has been since Warrington and Widnes. Often I'd be left standing on the platform unable to get on board, so I turned to using the buses if I wanted to go into the city centre.

As for getting the train to work through the week, well that is always hit and miss whether or not they are delayed or cancelled. The service could be fine for a couple of weeks, then the next week it would completely fall apart and the train would be delayed by 10, 15, 20, 25+ minutes, or just cancelled, every day of the week.

And these last couple of weeks have been a nightmare due to the strikes and then the overtime ban resulting in more than half the trains on the CLC being cancelled including the one I use to get to work.

Fortunately there's a half decent bus service that I can use and which I've been using a lot more than in the past.

As for longer train journeys - I've had trips planned to Leeds, York etc that I cancelled due to the chaos at TPE. I've also ruled out using West Midland Trains at the weekend - last time I used them to get from Liverpool to Birmingham on a Saturday I stood all the way crammed in like a sardine. Never again!

 

[yorksrob]

I think you are being over optimistic if you honestly believe that a Labour government would ever do anything much different to the current situation.
With rail travel by passengers, and freight, being such a small % of total travel movements it's simply not as important as it used to be.

There is at least an element of doubt to other parties competence.

This Government has proved beyond doubt that it is incapable of running a rail service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==

Have no wish to get on to politics, but all I would (politely) say, to anyone, is be careful what you wish for. Some of us remember the power cuts back in the early 70's, days of walking around holding candles, and no telly to watch. Thankfully (we) still had a coal fire, so the heating side of things wasn't too bad. Very few people today have a standalone source of heat and power.

Yes, that was under Mr Heath wasn't it.

 

[FOH]

My employer now mandates against rail travel for business, has ended its contract with our business rail ticketing supplier, and we have a new deal with Enterprise car hire. This is not a small company, either.

This happened after our Managing Director was stranded in Liverpool by Avanti and missed an important business meeting as a result, the increase in strikes, and several other incidents of people or products being in the wrong place caused by the railway in quick succession.

Road and Air are now ahead of Rail in the travel policy, you can still take a train if it's the quickest and most direct option, and claim back. The environmental impact of this has been commented on but it's just felt by most people in the company as a necessary evil due to the extreme unreliability of the railway at the moment.

How does this work though in a world of ESG? I have a meeting in Manchester in January that's making me think to go by air to have a better chance of being there. But the ESG side doesn't sit well with that...

 

[Class45]

Having been an enthusiast for many years in rail, I must say I am losing it with this industry - in terms of patience and interest.

The day to day disruption is quite frankly awful. This will take a while for Rail to recover from, and it is sad to see.

The downward spiral is on, I can only predict severe cuts to May23 TT, with routes being cut particularly where there is duplication.

Is anyone else just thinking of throwing the towel in on rail for the time being? What used to be fun, certainly isn’t anymore. Car for travelling is certainly pushing towards the norm, and that’s from a pro-rail, enthusiast, loyal traveller since I’ve been born.

You've described exactly how I feel. Things that put me off were a disastrous trip to Bristol this summer where I had to endure late and cancelled trains culminating in having to wait two hours for a train home from St Pancras when they are supposed to run every 15 minutes; the design of the seating on the class 700s on my local line means I find them unenjoyable to travel on so i only use the train when it is impractical to use the car rather than it being my first choice. I made a special trip to travel on the Elizabeth line when it first opened and wanted to do another one when through running was introduced but every time I've had the time to do it there have either been engineering works or strikes and now I just can't be bothered. I really hope things improve next year, because I'd hate to give up on the railways completely.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I hope for everyone giving up rail travel that it starts becoming better soon, these cancellations can't be allowed to continue.

I have no thoughts of giving up the railways anytime soon, as long as there are any trains I'll use them

Things that put me off were a disastrous trip to Bristol this summer where I had to endure late and cancelled trains culminating in having to wait two hours for a train home from St Pancras when they are supposed to run every 15 minutes

Was this entirely TPE/Avanti style issues or was there an engineering/breakdown issue?

 

[swaldman]

Yep. I'm a big fan of rail travel. I love the speed. I love having somebody else drive while I can relax or work.

But right now I'm considering cancelling my tickets for tomorrow and driving for 5 hrs, due to SWR's approach to their overtime ban of "this line no longer gets trains" meaning that my destination has no trains for about 2.5 weeks. And living in TPE-land I've not exactly had a good run of it for a while...

 

[Class45]

Was this entirely TPE/Avanti style issues or was there an engineering/breakdown issue?

This was 'shortage of drivers' on Thameslink, what was particularly galling was that locals to St Albans & Luton were running more or less normally but all the Bedford trains were cancelled. My station is between Luton and Bedford

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I haven't given up on rail travel for leisure but I've certainly modified the type of journeys I make.

I do a lot of walking and previously I would think nothing of making long day trips to places like the Lake District or the Malvern Hills from my South Yorkshire base. Unfortunately now I tend to limit myself to journeys no more than a hour or so from home, preferably with one or two changes at most. For any journey longer than that, the risk of getting delayed, having to stand or even end up stranded just stops the day being pleasurable and means I'm on edge for much of the journey.

And, needless to say, I avoid basket case TOCs like TPE and Avanti altogether!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

This was 'shortage of drivers' on Thameslink, what was particularly galling was that locals to St Albans & Luton were running more or less normally but all the Bedford trains were cancelled. My station is between Luton and Bedford

I feel like any driver shortage situation (where driver training allows) shouldn't cut routes but decrease overall service, maybe from 15 minutely to 30 or so? You'd know frequencies around there better than me.

 

[Mat17]

I don't use any TPE service as I expect those to be cancelled. Some days I'm not sure if the company still exists.

For other services, I'll travel shorter distances (1hr or so) happily on trains, but never on weekends. I used to travel a lot on Saturdays, but with the over crowding, I wouldn't do it now.

 

[Magdalia]

I no longer enjoy rail travel, and my use of rail is still less than half of what it was before the pandemic. My disillusionment with rail won't be cured by the end of industrial action because the issues go deeper than that.

At weekends the railway can't be relied upon to provide a full timetabled service. Any time when there is significant disruption, the railway can't be relied upon for service recovery.

Since the pandemic there has also been a significant increase in low level anti-social behaviour on trains, notably badly behaved schoolchildren, beggars, and drunken teenagers.

Rail travel isn't just unenjoyable, in too many cases it is stressful.

As a result I rarely make long journeys. I always try to complete journeys by about 2000, earlier on Fridays and Saturdays. And I try to avoid afternoon trains which I know are used by schoolchildren.

This means less in the farebox for the railway, but also impacts on, for example, preserved railways and the hospitality industry, where I'm no longer spending my money.

 

[Skiddaw]

Yesterday I travelled from Penrith to Carlisle and back (a bit of last minute Christmas shopping) and to my utter astonishment, the outward train (Avanti) and the return train (TPE) were both Actually Running and Running On Time (admittedly in the midst of a rake of cancellations and late running services). I commented to Mr S when I got home that it was a proper Brigadoon moment. It's so sad isn't it? That's honestly the first time I've travelled anywhere by train in the past two years when I've not been scuppered (the last time I went to Carlisle I had to catch a bus back because every southbound train that afternoon had been cancelled).

 

[pokemonsuper9]

My disillusionment with rail won't be cured by the end of industrial action because the issues go deeper than that.

At weekends the railway can't be relied upon to provide a full timetabled service. Any time when there is significant disruption, the railway can't be relied upon for service recovery.

Since the pandemic there has also been a significant increase in low level anti-social behaviour on trains, notably badly behaved schoolchildren, beggars, and drunken teenagers.

I feel like industrial action, lack of full service and anti-social behaviour could all be solved by more money for staff and trains, but I doubt that'll come any time soon

 

[td97]

I'm lucky enough to enjoy a reliable and punctual rail service. A regular Northern user (around 3 return journeys per week), my last delay repay was mid-October. My route's frequency was increased on 12 December and the service has been perfectly adequate since. A handful of cancellations (guard related as the train still runs ECS) this week owing to the RMT overtime ban, but very few.
Anecdotally, patronage seems very high on this route so other customers are presumably satisfied with Northern's offering and trust that they will get to their destination and home again.
It helps that cheap advance fares were launched this month too, so a return on advances (available on all services up to 5-10 minutes before departure) can be had for less than half the price of an anytime return.
I'll admit it's not easy for other Northern lines at the moment (CLC, Barrow etc.), but it's reassuring to know that not all Northern routes are a myriad of cancellations and delays.

 

[station_road]

Wihout wishing to make light of what is happening now (which has definitely put me off travelling when I don't absolutely have to), there have been major issues in the past that disrupted people's journeys. Post-Hatfield the whole network was in chaos, and I can remember stretches of the West Coast Main Line being closed for months during the West Coast route modernisation (Crewe - Wilmslow was closed for nearly 6 months in 2006, with the rail replacement buses virtually empty) yet the long term trend of passenger numbers continued to rise.

If the rail industry can come out of this without major cuts (which is not certain, given the DfT involvement) I think passenger numbers will recover faily quickly.