Train nearly leaving without conductor

[Eric]

I witnessed this nearly happen at New Pudsey station.

The conductor had closed the doors and got back on the train via the slam door at the rear of the train. The conductor then realised something was obstructing the doors nearest the vestibule and went to close them.

Once they were closed the driver started accelerating out of the station. Luckily the conductor got on at the back before the train really started accelerating.

I can certainly see how incidents like this happen on the railway.

Thankfully any miscommunication was discussed at Bradford Interchange as driver and conductor had lengthy talk on the platform.

 

[najaB]

Begs the question if/why he gave two and then got back out?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Begs the question if/why he gave two and then got back out?

He wouldn't have been able to give 2 as the interlock wouldn't have been present. So the driver has seen the interlock and taken off, unless the interlock was faulty (in which case presumably the train would have been terminated straight away).

Tea without biscuits, anyone?

 

[greatkingrat]

Is it possible that they obtained interlock, gave two on the bell, then lost interlock again before the train started moving?

 

[Starmill]

The crew doors on some of Northern's stock (150/1) are not interlocked.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The crew doors on some of Northern's stock (150/1) are not interlocked.

No, but the open passenger door he went to check is, and so he could not have used the signal buzzer prior to resolving it (as doing so requires interlock on 14x and 15x).

 

[Starmill]

No, but the open passenger door he went to check is, and so he could not have used the signal buzzer prior to resolving it (as doing so requires interlock on 14x and 15x).

It was your own speculation that:

driver has seen the interlock and taken off

So this clearly is plausible within the context of your story.

 

[najaB]

He wouldn't have been able to give 2 as the interlock wouldn't have been present. So the driver has seen the interlock and taken off...

Tea without biscuits, anyone?

If the driver has started off without getting the signal then that's an entirely plausible menu suggestion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So this clearly is plausible within the context of your story.

I don't think it's plausible that (unless I've got it wrong re the buzzer requiring interlock on 150/1s, but I'm pretty sure it does on all 14x and 15x) the guard could have given 2 with a door open.

What I think could have happened is:
- Guard closes doors
- Guard notices door open and hazard light on
- Guard goes to correct. Once corrected interlock is gained and driver departs, imagining he's had 2 on the buzzer (I've heard of this happening before - it's a sort of muscle memory type issue)

Though I suppose it's possible that the obstruction wasn't big enough to cause lost interlock, in which case the guard perhaps did give 2 and then get out, in which case he's a twit and will himself be having said meeting

 

[najaB]

...in which case he's a twit and will himself be having said meeting

I suspect there will be two cups of tea and only one plate of biscuits.

 

[Starmill]

unless I've got it wrong re the buzzer requiring interlock on 150/1s, but I'm pretty sure it does on all 14x and 15x

I didn't comment on buzzer issues - I do not know where you have got this from.

Guard goes to correct. Once corrected interlock is gained and driver departs, imagining he's had 2 on the buzzer (I've heard of this happening before - it's a sort of muscle memory type issue)

Not on the vast majority of rolling stock where the guard would have left their door open, thus preventing the train from moving (well, possibly only from taking power).

 

[HLE]

You couldn’t take the brake off without interlock*

I reckon what’s happened is the guard has given two on the bell and then got off via the non interlocked local door to see what the obstruction was. Or, the driver took off upon gaining interlock which is possible and does happen, but isn’t the norm or the ‘done thing’. 2 on the bell before moving.

*before the armchair mafia correct me......unless it’s been ebs’d etc.

 

[boxerdog]

You couldn’t take the brake off without interlock*

I reckon what’s happened is the guard has given two on the bell and then got off via the non interlocked local door to see what the obstruction was. Or, the driver took off upon gaining interlock which is possible and does happen, but isn’t the norm or the ‘done thing’. 2 on the bell before moving.

*before the armchair mafia correct me......unless it’s been ebs’d etc.

You can on certain traction types, as it's part of the coupling process to test brake continuity between units, but, you cannot take power, only roll (eg which ever way the gradient takes you) .....

 

[Starmill]

I've been boarding a train a few times that has rolled with all of its doors open, at a platform on a slope.

 

[sw1ller]

So the guard jumped onto a moving train?? Bit silly that! Getting left behind at a station won’t lose you your job but jumping on a train whilst it’s moving will. S/he should of just waived it good bye and got a brew!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been boarding a train a few times that has rolled with all of its doors open, at a platform on a slope.

I've been on a 150/1 that did exactly that too, a fair way down the platform at Bolton...though it was in about 1990-something.

Away from the UK SBB and DB practice on hauled stock is to use the coach brakes to stop but then to only hold the train on the loco brake, which results in a bit of disconcerting movement when boarding.

 

[westcoaster]

On a 150/1 the brake applies into emergency when interlock is lost, even at a standstill. As soon as you get interlock the brake releases. My interpretation
Guard sees obstruction -no interlock
Goes and sorts it out - gets interlock, while walking back
Driver sees brakes release - takes power and off he goes.

 

[Sprinter153]

A similar sort of thing happened to a colleague of mine on an HST. Although there is no interlock on an HST the driver thought he heard two buzzes and the train left the station sans guard with several doors wide open. My colleague managed to jump on and pulled the passcom to bring the train to a stand.

Was my colleague congratulated on avoiding several doors being taken off their hinges and potentially causing injury on the platform? No.
Was he thanked for ensuring a train didn't wend its way through the countryside with doors open and no guard? No.
He was told never to climb on a moving train again, drug and alcohol tested and rewarded with a 2 year Competence Development Plan.

 

[185]

For many years, the Newton Heath / Heaton 150s that Leeds crews worked for were totally interlocked (ie ex RRNE, NS & ATN units). 150s that creeped in from FNW / Newton Heath are slam door with no interlock. A fairly easy mistake for those who have solely worked 150s with a full interlock. I did see one start to roll away some years ago when a driver got out at Leeds to wipe bugs off the windscreen.

Perhaps the four cab (slam-)doors could be modified to add the power door interlock (train wire 4?) through them which prevents the buzzer being pressed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A similar sort of thing happened to a colleague of mine on an HST. Although there is no interlock on an HST the driver thought he heard two buzzes and the train left the station sans guard with several doors wide open. My colleague managed to jump on and pulled the passcom to bring the train to a stand.

Was my colleague congratulated on avoiding several doors being taken off their hinges and potentially causing injury on the platform? No.
Was he thanked for ensuring a train didn't wend its way through the countryside with doors open and no guard? No.
He was told never to climb on a moving train again, drug and alcohol tested and rewarded with a 2 year Competence Development Plan.

What did they suggest was correct procedure in this case? (Very different from a train going out guardless but properly secured).

SPT to signaller requesting everything put to red?

 

[R Trevithick]

Doesn’t say what unit.

155s don’t have interlock I think and so could possibly be moved with door open.

150/1 could be moved with interlock but local door open (has happened in past I believe)

 

[E_Reeves]

So the buzzer can't be used without interlock? Is this so on all stock as I swear I see XC guards and drivers using the buzzer before doors are closed?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

HST are CDL, there's no traction interlock on slam doors. Same with 150/1 crew slam doors also not in the interlock as with the guard slam doors on a 442, PEP derived stock and on the Mk2 DBSO or Mk4 DVT and bell buzzers will still operate with slam doors that are still open, staff or passenger.

Powered doors however are traction interlinked. The only way traction can be obtained with power doors open is if the TIS (Traction Interlock Switch) has been isolated or "Raised" and this is a distinctive flag in the driving cab window.

Only a few weeks ago a XC HST left York with the CDL locked but the TM was left behind on the platform. The TM had to holler a lift on the following VTEC service to Tollerton where the XC HST was brought to a stand to await their return. How this happened can only be speculated, but if flags and whistles have been used and after giving the tip the guard/TM slips or trips on the platform and is unable to board before the driver takes power then missing the train is a possibility.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the buzzer can't be used without interlock? Is this so on all stock as I swear I see XC guards and drivers using the buzzer before doors are closed?

On 14x and 15x it can’t. Other stock varies.

 

[Eric]

Doesn’t say what unit.

155s don’t have interlock I think and so could possibly be moved with door open.

150/1 could be moved with interlock but local door open (has happened in past I believe)

Class 150.

 

[Eric]

On a 150/1 the brake applies into emergency when interlock is lost, even at a standstill. As soon as you get interlock the brake releases. My interpretation
Guard sees obstruction -no interlock
Goes and sorts it out - gets interlock, while walking back
Driver sees brakes release - takes power and off he goes.

That's how it looked to me. I certainly didn't hear two on the buzzer.

Some of the doors on the class 150s have become troublesome of late.

 

[Eccles1983]

150/1 The slam doors are not linked to the interlock. This is how a guard sadly killed himself a few years ago.

Also there is no interlock light on 150's in Northern. The only indication the driver would get is if when coming to a stand he didn't place the brake into step 3, and on gaining interlock it has released to step 1 and he has taken that as ready to go.

Which is why it is taught to go to step 3, as you will not hear the brakes come off and you respond to the bell.

The download will prove all in this case.

 

[DaveTM]

Those who are talking about disabling the bell/buzzer until interlock is obtained are forgetting that while the doors are open, at least the following bell/buzzer codes may be needed: 3-3 (guard to contact driver or vice-versa), 9 (emergency services required), 1-2 (close doors - particularly important in the case of a stop-short). The bell/buzzer must never be disabled.
I suspect some people are also confused as to what is disabled when interlock has not been achieved. Some people think that brakes can be released but power cannot be taken, others think that brakes cannot be released and power cannot be taken. The bad news is that both groups are right depending on traction type. On 3 of the 4 traction types I have driven a lack of interlock only inhibits taking power and the train can still roll on a gradient with the brakes released. On the fourth traction type the brakes are forced on until interlock is achieved. The benefit on the first 3 traction types is that after your personal brake test you know that come departure time the brakes will actually release, the benefit on the fourth traction type is that you know you'll never have a tea-and-no-biscuits conversation with the Competency Development Manager after a doors-open station roll.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those who are talking about disabling the bell/buzzer until interlock is obtained are forgetting that while the doors are open, at least the following bell/buzzer codes may be needed: 3-3 (guard to contact driver or vice-versa), 9 (emergency services required), 1-2 (close doors - particularly important in the case of a stop-short). The bell/buzzer must never be disabled.

The buzzer is disabled on Class 14x and 15x when there is no door interlock. Fact, whether you like it or not! (Unless any TOC has modified theirs)

 

[philthetube]

It is possible that something like a plastic bag was trapped in the door, interlock would be got but then guard notices and gets off to sort, forgetting the driver has already been buzzed.