Train nearly leaving without conductor

[175001]

Doesn’t say what unit.

155s don’t have interlock I think and so could possibly be moved with door open.

150/1 could be moved with interlock but local door open (has happened in past I believe)

155s have now been modified and will not move with doors opened.

 

[R Trevithick]

155s have now been modified and will not move with doors opened.

Thanks for that.

Hadn’t heard about the modification.

 

[whhistle]

You guys should check out the Hayes and Harlington incident a couple years back where a lady put her hand in the train doors expecting them to open. However the train diver interlock light was off, so he proceeded to drive off, dragging the passenger along.
Citing the Rule Book, and stock manual, the driver incorrectly thought the light off meant the doors were closed and locked ready to go with no obstructions. However this is incorrect, as interlock can still be gained with the doors open by around 5-6 cm. The stock involved was a 166, which is newer than the 150. Perhaps the 15x units, unless they've had something changed, suffer form the same defect.

That would explain why the driver may have had no light in the cab, but does not explain why the guard decided to get off and move the obstruction from the outside. Unless the CDL was still illuminated? But then the driver would also have a light in the cab.

But then let's face it, if the guard gave two on the buzzer, then got off, why they did not give further buzzers to stop the driver proceeding I don't know.

 

[E_Reeves]

I thought interlock light illuminated means interlock has been gained?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

185, no interlock, no bell buzzers. Expect this is the same for all desiro stock.

 

[BestWestern]

Those who are talking about disabling the bell/buzzer until interlock is obtained are forgetting that while the doors are open, at least the following bell/buzzer codes may be needed: 3-3 (guard to contact driver or vice-versa), 9 (emergency services required), 1-2 (close doors - particularly important in the case of a stop-short). The bell/buzzer must never be disabled.
I suspect some people are also confused as to what is disabled when interlock has not been achieved. Some people think that brakes can be released but power cannot be taken, others think that brakes cannot be released and power cannot be taken. The bad news is that both groups are right depending on traction type. On 3 of the 4 traction types I have driven a lack of interlock only inhibits taking power and the train can still roll on a gradient with the brakes released. On the fourth traction type the brakes are forced on until interlock is achieved. The benefit on the first 3 traction types is that after your personal brake test you know that come departure time the brakes will actually release, the benefit on the fourth traction type is that you know you'll never have a tea-and-no-biscuits conversation with the Competency Development Manager after a doors-open station roll.

Are you thinking of HSTs? On class 14x & 15x, the buzzer is inoperable with doors released and interlock broken. The code 3-3 on such trains would be given via the cab-to-cab, a separate system to the buzzer. The code 2-1 is not applicable here, as the Guard would close the doors themselves, and '9' wouldn't be possible with the doors released (except from a cab, where I believe the desk buzzer will still sound regardless of interlock). In reality of course, '9' was probably last used sometime last century!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite, who's going to use 9 when they can pull their phone out of their pocket (or use CSR) and phone them, which is all the recipient of 9 is going to do anyway!

 

[tsr]

Those who are talking about disabling the bell/buzzer until interlock is obtained are forgetting that while the doors are open, at least the following bell/buzzer codes may be needed: 3-3 (guard to contact driver or vice-versa), 9 (emergency services required), 1-2 (close doors - particularly important in the case of a stop-short). The bell/buzzer must never be disabled.

This, I am afraid, is not correct. In fact, it is very very wrong in some cases.

Whether or not the bell or buzzer is enabled by interlock being gained is dependent on traction and can also be down to the crew's position in the train - either adjacent to a cab door or a saloon panel. (This latter point being relevant to some Electrostars, where you can give bell signals from a non-leading cab to the driver's cab, and vice versa, but there is only one-way communication from driver to guard if the guard is using a saloon panel and interlock has not yet been gained. The reason is that the guard can close doors without giving a bell code if they are in the saloon, but they must use the 1-2 bell code if in some classes' cabs, as the door close controls on some variants are not active in non-leading cabs.)

There are also plenty of trains where it is impossible to give a bell or buzzer code from guard to driver (and in some cases driver to guard). This includes much of the Turbostar fleet, where the guard does not have an interlock light indication, so the final check after the BILs extinguish is to give the ready-to-start buzzer code and check it sounds correctly. If it does not sound, buzzer interlock is still broken. This also means buzzer codes can't be given whilst at a stand if interlock is broken.

I've never signed the 15x series so can't specifically comment on those, but if they do have bell / buzzer inrerlock it would be much the same as 455s.

 

[Eccles1983]

Firstly the guard would use 9 (i have had it)

Gsmr isnt normally turned on it the back cab, and furthermore isnt registered with the correcr headcode.

I'll repeat again. 14 and 15 do not have interlock lights.

And the bell buzzer doesnt work if interlock is lost (its part of the door test, to see if the doors are closed properly on prep)

 

[BestWestern]

GSMR can still be used from the rear cab of course, firing it up only takes seconds and a handy phone book of relevant contacts is contained within.

I can only imagine the bemused face most Drivers would likely pull if '9' came through on the buzzer Fair play that man for remembering what it meant!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any current stock on which there is no verbal driver-guard communication but there is a signal buzzer? I suspect instead of using 9 the guard would call the driver and explain precisely what emergency assistance was required.

Otherwise...

Driver calls 999 (or railway equivalent)
Call centre: Emergency services, which service do you require?[1]
Driver: Er, I don't know, the guard just told me to call the emergency services.
<ends>

[1] This is the most hair-brained setup I have ever used (and I have called it once while not in a very good way myself) - why oh why isn't there one single call centre to which you describe the problem and they dispatch the required service or combination of services?

 

[BestWestern]

Is there any current stock on which there is no verbal driver-guard communication but there is a signal buzzer? I suspect instead of using 9 the guard would call the driver and explain precisely what emergency assistance was required.

Otherwise...

Driver calls 999 (or railway equivalent)
Call centre: Emergency services, which service do you require?[1]
Driver: Er, I don't know, the guard just told me to call the emergency services.
<ends>

[1] This is the most hair-brained setup I have ever used (and I have called it once while not in a very good way myself) - why oh why isn't there one single call centre to which you describe the problem and they dispatch the required service or combination of services?

In fairness, the Rulebook meaning is specifically 'police assistance required', so I suppose the appropriate action would be for the Driver to request this be arranged at the first available point. The details of why may or may not be available.

 

[LowLevel]

Firstly the guard would use 9 (i have had it)

Gsmr isnt normally turned on it the back cab, and furthermore isnt registered with the correcr headcode.

I'll repeat again. 14 and 15 do not have interlock lights.

And the bell buzzer doesnt work if interlock is lost (its part of the door test, to see if the doors are closed properly on prep)

As far as I know the only 15x that has an interlock light in the cab is 158/9 where it's above the AWS sunflower.

You don't need to register the GSMR in the back cab. You turn it on by holding in the registration key for a moment and then you can use it to make calls. It will stay on for 30 minutes. I use it all the time - phonebook 1 and 2, call signaller/priority call/railway emergency call are all functional on an unregistered GSMR interface except in class 153 where it will only work in the cab with the key in or one cab at a time otherwise as there's only one set of kit with two interfaces. Very useful bit of kit for a guard.

 

[Eric]

I don't know what the above means as I don't work on the railway.

Can anyone answer this please, if possible .

Why can the train move if the slam door at the conductors end is open?

 

[Dhassell]

I don't know what the above means as I don't work on the railway.

Can anyone answer this please, if possible .

Why can the train move if the slam door at the conductors end is open?

It depends if the slam door is part of the interlock, for example on a Class 150/1 on the guard slam door is not connected to the train interlock, so the train could still move if the cab door is open. I have seen it happen before where A 150/1 started moving away with the guard still on the platform, luckily the ticket inspector knew to give the one bell to the driver quiet sharpish. On other trains, the slam door may be part of the interlock, and the train can't move if it's still open.

 

[Lockwood]

[1] This is the most hair-brained setup I have ever used (and I have called it once while not in a very good way myself) - why oh why isn't there one single call centre to which you describe the problem and they dispatch the required service or combination of services?

Because then you would get a jack of all trades master of none.
You phone the police, you get a call handler that is trained to deal with police matters. (Not sure what happens after this stage)
You phone the ambulance service, you get a call handler who is trained to use the ambulance system and the initial triage system. In this case, the call is passed to the dispatch desk for them to resource and allocate, the call handler's job is to act as the inferface between the service and the caller.
You phone the fire and rescue service and... I guess someone wakes up and does something?

If you had a control centre that was not just a combined building but a shared workforce, there would be a much higher risk of error from fatigue.

 

[OneOffDave]

Because then you would get a jack of all trades master of none.
You phone the police, you get a call handler that is trained to deal with police matters. (Not sure what happens after this stage)
You phone the ambulance service, you get a call handler who is trained to use the ambulance system and the initial triage system. In this case, the call is passed to the dispatch desk for them to resource and allocate, the call handler's job is to act as the inferface between the service and the caller.
You phone the fire and rescue service and... I guess someone wakes up and does something?

If you had a control centre that was not just a combined building but a shared workforce, there would be a much higher risk of error from fatigue.

You'd also get the situation that the calls for one service would crowd out the calls for the other two too. Call volumes to ambulance control rooms are usually much higher than to police and fire controls. You don't want to be stuck in your burning bedroom trying to get through to fire because someone with a sprained wrist or a cold has dialled 999 for an ambulance. I've done shifts in the control rooms for all three services and the ambulance get far more 'less urgent' 999 calls than the other two services.

 

[185]

I've had a 158 set off without me at Huddersfield once, caused by an impatient driver who set off with no buzzer. 9 mins late and more concerned with his finish time, he just heard the brakes come off and went for it - no buzzer. Plonker failed to realise I was on the platform with police getting a middle door shut on a butterfly latch after a drunken football fan had been fighting with others.

Fortunately, doing the external door butterfly brought the train to a stop at 1mph when the door opened. Needless to say Mr Driver's incident was covered up at the time, and Australia (where he now works) can keep him.

 

[FordFocus]

It's not unheard of this sort of incident. Slam cab doors on 150/1 and some BR EMU stock cab doors are not interlocked.

Obviously I wasn't there nor will I make judgement as this is why the railway has it's own internal investigations but this is one way of how guards have been left behind in the past.

- Guard presses close button
- Notices a door isn't closed corrected
- Walks down and kicks the door shut. Train has now gained interlock. Guard still on the platform walking back towards their cab.
- [Assumption: Driver has left the brake in Step 1] Brake Cylinder reading drops along with the audible expelling of air in the brake system as soon as that final door was kicked closed.
- Driver isn't quite paying attention, hears the brakes released, thinks they have heard 2 on the buzzer for the ready to start signal and pulls away.

Doing 80+ stops a day it becomes robotic, too routine and your mind naturally wonders particularly if your fatigued at times. Can't quite remember the proper terminology for such an occurrence.

 

[talltim]

You'd also get the situation that the calls for one service would crowd out the calls for the other two too. Call volumes to ambulance control rooms are usually much higher than to police and fire controls. You don't want to be stuck in your burning bedroom trying to get through to fire because someone with a sprained wrist or a cold has dialled 999 for an ambulance. I've done shifts in the control rooms for all three services and the ambulance get far more 'less urgent' 999 calls than the other two services.

What happens when you need more than one service at once?

 

[Trackman]

I was on a 150 that rolled backwards at Wigan NW with the doors open about 20 years ago, it left the guard on the platform who had to run and leap on board to stop the train (the driver was reading a newspaper).
It kicked off after that, but that's another story.
I think this was before brake interlocking mods and not just traction interlocking at the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was on a 150 that rolled backwards at Wigan NW with the doors open about 20 years ago, it left the guard on the platform who had to run and leap on board to stop the train (the driver was reading a newspaper).
It kicked off after that, but that's another story.
I think this was before brake interlocking mods and not just traction interlocking at the time.

I had that at Bolton as well, probably about 30 years ago, though I don't know if the guard was on board or not or was just reading his paper.

Here's something I've wondered, actually.

If there are significant numbers of drivers thinking they heard "ding ding" when they didn't, should the system perhaps change so that ceases to be possible? Something a bit like the following?

- On release/opening of any interlocked door, local or all, (or possibly any door including non interlocked manual cab doors) the train is put in "stopped" mode. Brakes fully on, power disabled, hazard lights illuminated in some form (perhaps flashing if doors are closed to keep the differentiation).

- The guard must press two buttons together with the door key switch on to release the train from that mode, which would signal departure instead of using 2 buzzes, and can only do so when the brake is on and interlock has been obtained. If the buttons are pressed and the brake is not on or there is not interlock, a warning tone sounds both at the panel and in the cab and "stopped" mode remains engaged.

The signal buzzer would remain in use for all other purposes.

 

[DaveTM]

Well I stand well and truely corrected regarding the bell never being inhibited!
It does seem an odd design choice though. Can anyone tell us what the rationale is behind inhibiting the bell? What risk does removing communication between guard and driver mitigate against? Ding-ding-and-away-without-interlock would only be a risk on stock where lack of interlock does not inhibit taking power, and I don't think anyone has mentioned any classes that do that (yet)! If there isn't a good reason, perhaps I should modify what I wrote to: "The bell/buzzer should never be disabled".
To me, the interesting thing here is the lack of standardisation across traction types.

 

[Right Away]

I was on a 150 that rolled backwards at Wigan NW with the doors open about 20 years ago, it left the guard on the platform who had to run and leap on board to stop the train (the driver was reading a newspaper).
It kicked off after that, but that's another story.
I think this was before brake interlocking mods and not just traction interlocking at the time.

It was the case on a class 150 that if the driver moved the F&R switch to neutral before the doors had been released, the brake cylinder would remain at the same pressure that the brake controller was set to. For example; if before the doors were released, the brake controller was in step one when the F&R was switched to neutral, the brake cylinder reading would remain at one bar instead of the normal three bar you get when the interlock has been broken. If the F&R switch is still in direction when the doors are released, the brake cylinder pressure will automatically go to 3 bar when the interlock is broken, accompanied by an audible 'clunk.

As an aside, in my platform staff days, despatching mk 2 LHCS, I had given the guard the second tip. The guard stepped on to the platform (because of the curved platform) to give the RA using the green flag. I press the RA indicator. The guard goes to re-board the train to find that the inward opening door has partially shut behind them and is now a bit stiff in the frame and won't open! I recall the guard frantically kicking the door as the train was setting off before finally succeeding in freeing it and jumping back on board red faced!

I have heard of guards being sent by taxi to the next station in similar circumstances. No GSM-R back then. Just had to tell the signalman so they could advise the driver by a Signal Post Telephone that their guard was in hot pursuit!

 

[OneOffDave]

What happens when you need more than one service at once?

You call the one you need first and tell them what else you need and they'll contact the other agencies while their response starts rolling. If you pass your request as either an ETHANE message or following the SLIDE approach you'll get what you need as fast as possible. Most 999 calls only need the one service

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thinking of the idea above, though, it'd probably just be easier to fit interlock to non-interlocked cab doors and instruct guards they must never close all doors when they are not on the train unless it is going to leave as a DOO service.

 

[Lockwood]

You call the one you need first and tell them what else you need and they'll contact the other agencies while their response starts rolling. If you pass your request as either an ETHANE message or following the SLIDE approach you'll get what you need as fast as possible. Most 999 calls only need the one service

I've had it where the police control had called for an ambulance to a job, and not told the officers on the ground they had called us. Cue a confused family, two confused police officers and a confused ambulance crew.

 

[The Lad]

Ethane I know is a gas, Slide?

 

[Lockwood]

(M)ETHANE

(Major Incident Declared)
Exact Location
Type of Incident
Hazards Identified/Suspected
Access/Egress
Numebr of casualties
Emergency Services Present & Required


Not sure about SLIDE