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Train Driving and Automation

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FordFocus

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Can ATO detect whether a train has hit an object? If so can it tell the difference between a bird, large animal or human? Can it detect signalling irregularities, trespassers, obstructions on the adjacent line, track side workers and list of other things a human eyeball can see and respond to?

This DLR style technology isn't suitable for the mainline and probably won't be for a very long time. Too many external factors. There are questions with driverless cars and lorries... Does it swerve to avoiding hitting school children and hit an oncoming car injuring the driver or vice versa?

ATO and driverless technology on the mainline (also outside the Thameslink core) offers virtually no advantages for the immense cost involved.
 
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carriageline

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Can ATO detect whether a train has hit an object? If so can it tell the difference between a bird, large animal or human? Can it detect signalling irregularities, trespassers, obstructions on the adjacent line, track side workers and list of other things a human eyeball can see and respond to?


No it can't, and that's exactly why a driver will be upfront for the foreseeable future. People need to realise, ATO on the Mainline and driverless trains on the Mainline are two different things, and don't necessarily come hand in hand.

But how long before technology is in a position to do it? I would say easily within 10 years, but how they would apply it to the railway I do not know. It would require a complete rewrite on how we work, and the cost involved would be awful. I truly believe we will have drivers on trains until I retire, and that's 30 odd years away yet. Even if they ain't driving.

The benefit of ATO is as people say, not needing route knowledge, trains can follow closer, and close up gaps so in/out stations faster, operating incidents will reduce (hopefully :lol:), losing defensive driving policies will speed things up ALOT (note: I don't think they are a bad thing at all, but it's a different kettle of fish with ATO) to name a few.
Whether it's worth the cost, I guess we will see in 2018 when Thameslink ATO kicks off. Once ERTMS is implemented, then ATO is (surely) simple enough To implement, as the train has all the information it needs from the signalling system.
 
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DerekC

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That's the easy bit. The bit that's harder to crack is stopping the train accurately, without losing time needlessly or having operating incidents. It's a pretty fundamental issue, that none of the ATO systems currently in use in Britain have been able to fully address.

With the performance of modern human drivers being fairly good (I think I'm right that Southall is the most recent fatal accident caused by driver error that wouldn't have been fully protected by TPWS), ATO introduces a range of issues without providing major benefits - especially if we're still retaining a member of staff on the train. Railway engineering is a compromise, and currently the scales tip away from ATO. If performance of human drivers is unable to meet a specification for a specialised application (for example Thameslink) then the scales may tip the other way.

I am not sure where the idea that ATO systems don't work very well comes from - maybe from teething problems that most of the systems had. From personal experience it took nearly 4 years to get SELTRAC on DLR right, but since about 1997 it has worked very well. Then unfortunately LU decided that DLR had nothing to teach Central Line, and then went to another different supplier for the Jubilee Line extension in 1998 or so. So the lessons got learned all over again. But now (according to a reliable source in LU) better than 99% of all stops on ATO fitted lines are achieved without problem in ATO control, a small number (about 1%) of these using a lower brake rate on surface sections in bad weather. Getting it right isn't easy, but it can be done.
 

bramling

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I am not sure where the idea that ATO systems don't work very well comes from - maybe from teething problems that most of the systems had. From personal experience it took nearly 4 years to get SELTRAC on DLR right, but since about 1997 it has worked very well. Then unfortunately LU decided that DLR had nothing to teach Central Line, and then went to another different supplier for the Jubilee Line extension in 1998 or so. So the lessons got learned all over again. But now (according to a reliable source in LU) better than 99% of all stops on ATO fitted lines are achieved without problem in ATO control, a small number (about 1%) of these using a lower brake rate on surface sections in bad weather. Getting it right isn't easy, but it can be done.
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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am not sure where the idea that ATO systems don't work very well comes from - maybe from teething problems that most of the systems had. From personal experience it took nearly 4 years to get SELTRAC on DLR right, but since about 1997 it has worked very well. Then unfortunately LU decided that DLR had nothing to teach Central Line, and then went to another different supplier for the Jubilee Line extension in 1998 or so. So the lessons got learned all over again. But now (according to a reliable source in LU) better than 99% of all stops on ATO fitted lines are achieved without problem in ATO control, a small number (about 1%) of these using a lower brake rate on surface sections in bad weather. Getting it right isn't easy, but it can be done.

The 1% figure is incorrect. On the Jubilee and Northern lines, all stops in the open (as well as some tunnel) are carried out at the most gentle brake rate. This enters platforms at roughly *half* the speed that a driver could, and is slower than even the slowest drivers used to.

It would not be acceptable on a mainline railway to use such a gentle braking rate everywhere, all year round - the amount of time lost compared to today would be unacceptable. And the railhead conditions on LU are comparatively tame compared to mainline - if it just about copes on a metro railway with trains every 3 minutes cleaning the railhead, performance on a less frequent railway would be worse.

The Central Line has incidents all the time where the trains have to be taken out of ATO, as well as running adhesion trains through the autumn. The Victoria Line is all tunnel so is a special case. And DLR is not representative of the mainline, a small urban system that fortunately manages to avoid too many changin railhead conditions such that they can set their brake rate from the control room, which keeps them out of trouble most of the time. However a journey on the DLR can still be depressingly slow at times.

I'd dispute the point about LU not learning lessons from the DLR. LU first experimented with ATO in the 1960s, and had a production installation on the Victoria Line. The Central Line was a development of this, and the original trial installation on Hainault-Woodford lasted until 1986. So LU already had experience of its own in ATO, including in the open. The originally proposed system for the JLE never came to fruition as the moving block signalling could not be developed in time. Seltrac on the Jubilee and Northern Lines is virtually identical to DLR.
 
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notadriver

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I don't think you can convince DerekC no matter how hard you try Bramling. When people have their own agenda nothing we say can convince otherwise despite our obvious personal experiences.
 

ComUtoR

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I don't think you can convince DerekC no matter how hard you try Bramling. When people have their own agenda nothing we say can convince otherwise despite our obvious personal experiences.

What has really annoyed me is that I am a supporter of ATO and automated trains. DerekC is someone who has worked to implement it so I was hoping for a stronger, more convincing argument. It has only opened up more questions. I am yet to be convinced of its benefits or its wider introduction but I truly am looking forward to it. 2017-18 is when I get my hands on it. It is happening in my career and I can't wait.
 

DerekC

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The 1% figure is incorrect. On the Jubilee and Northern lines, all stops in the open (as well as some tunnel) are carried out at the most gentle brake rate. This enters platforms at roughly *half* the speed that a driver could, and is slower than even the slowest drivers used to.

It would not be acceptable on a mainline railway to use such a gentle braking rate everywhere, all year round - the amount of time lost compared to today would be unacceptable. And the railhead conditions on LU are comparatively tame compared to mainline - if it just about copes on a metro railway with trains every 3 minutes cleaning the railhead, performance on a less frequent railway would be worse.

The Central Line has incidents all the time where the trains have to be taken out of ATO, as well as running adhesion trains through the autumn. The Victoria Line is all tunnel so is a special case. And DLR is not representative of the mainline, a small urban system that fortunately manages to avoid too many changin railhead conditions such that they can set their brake rate from the control room, which keeps them out of trouble most of the time. However a journey on the DLR can still be depressingly slow at times.

I'd dispute the point about LU not learning lessons from the DLR. LU first experimented with ATO in the 1960s, and had a production installation on the Victoria Line. The Central Line was a development of this, and the original trial installation on Hainault-Woodford lasted until 1986. So LU already had experience of its own in ATO, including in the open. The originally proposed system for the JLE never came to fruition as the moving block signalling could not be developed in time. Seltrac on the Jubilee and Northern Lines is virtually identical to DLR.

None of the performance data accords with the facts which I got from LU on a reasonably official basis. Are you suggesting that they are telling porkies? What's your information based on?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't think you can convince DerekC no matter how hard you try Bramling. When people have their own agenda nothing we say can convince otherwise despite our obvious personal experiences.

Hmm - I wasn't actually trying to convince anybody of anything. What I wanted was to see whether this community (which has obviously got quite a lot of drivers) thinks about what the driver's role will be like in the future, as the application of automation increases on the railway. I got some useful stuff, but there are obviously quite a few who want to believe that it will never happen. I think they are wrong, but only time will tell. Nobody said it would be easy or will happen quickly.
 

najaB

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Nobody said it would be easy or will happen quickly.
In one of your earlier posts you referred to the "largely automated railway of 20 years time" - that is quickly for the railway given that there are still large parts that operate the same way as it did 100 years ago.
 

DerekC

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What has really annoyed me is that I am a supporter of ATO and automated trains. DerekC is someone who has worked to implement it so I was hoping for a stronger, more convincing argument. It has only opened up more questions. I am yet to be convinced of its benefits or its wider introduction but I truly am looking forward to it. 2017-18 is when I get my hands on it. It is happening in my career and I can't wait.

Sorry to have annoyed you, ComUtoR It wasn't intended. I guess you are going to be driving on either Crossrail or Thameslink. The argument on urban railways of that kind is made already - it's all about capacity, as I am sure you know. Rolling ATO out on a wider basis is more difficult for many reasons and the benefits are less clear, so it will take longer. It took a lot of convincing over about 10 years to get ATO adopted on Thameslink, after all! I am afraid that's reality. However you are in really great position because you will be leading the way. Please start a discussion thread when testing starts.
 

notadriver

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None of the performance data accords with the facts which I got from LU on a reasonably official basis. Are you suggesting that they are telling porkies? What's your information based on?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




Hmm - I wasn't actually trying to convince anybody of anything. What I wanted was to see whether this community (which has obviously got quite a lot of drivers) thinks about what the driver's role will be like in the future, as the application of automation increases on the railway. I got some useful stuff, but there are obviously quite a few who want to believe that it will never happen. I think they are wrong, but only time will tell. Nobody said it would be easy or will happen quickly.


I've never said it won't happen. But to me true ATO is one like the docklands light railway where's there's no one in the front. I can't see that happening on main line trains for a long time yet.

I've also mentioned that all high speed railways still have a driver actually driving in front when ironically these would have been the best choices for ATO operation given that they are segregated from other railways and road crossings etc. I mentioned RER line A in Paris - the busiest outside of Japan uses SACEM and not ATO. Why ?

You're only response to those facts was that HS2 will be ATO - a railway line which doesn't even exist.
 
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Juniper Driver

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I'm looking forward to it.

You've made a statement but you haven't given any reasons why you are looking forward to it.

Is it due to strikes?

I think we've had very little industrial action since I've been at my latest depot over 25+ years.

(sorry haven't trawled through the entire seven pages so haven't seen any answers)
 
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ComUtoR

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Sorry to have annoyed you, ComUtoR It wasn't intended.

Your in the biz but even you are showing us the pitfalls of its introduction. You haven't directly annoyed me so please don't have that belief. I'm annoyed that for probably the first time we have someone who knows they system with direct experience but still cannot put forward a convincing argument. Currently the naysayers have the upper hand. If a forum cannot be convinced then how do you convince the government, toc, drivers, signalers, and the general public ?

My willing and openness for automation is because I want to see the railway going forward. My opinion is purely emotive. I have no evidence to support automation and really wanted to see someone who is clearly knowledgable provide some hard evidence to show it being viable on the main line.

Hmm - I wasn't actually trying to convince anybody of anything. What I wanted was to see whether this community (which has obviously got quite a lot of drivers) thinks about what the driver's role will be like in the future, as the application of automation increases on the railway.

It has been discussed many times and various degrees of automation happen on a day to day basis. It is almost impossible to predict what our role will be because we aren't convinced it will ever happen. Technology is slowly being introduced but we see how long it takes to implement and how our day to day job barely changes. The automation we have now just makes life a little easier but still has its own inherent problems. So what we see it the same **** but different day.

I got some useful stuff, but there are obviously quite a few who want to believe that it will never happen. I think they are wrong, but only time will tell. Nobody said it would be easy or will happen quickly.

Its not the belief it wont happen just that it is years and years away. In the mean time we will just get the typical glacial change towards obsolete technology at insane prices.

I only see it happening because the next traction I train will have a button I press that will 100% drive the unit for me. Cuppa tea and a current bun time.
 

najaB

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Its not the belief it wont happen just that it is years and years away. In the mean time we will just get the typical glacial change towards obsolete technology at insane prices.
The reason for the slow pace of change is that trains don't win wars. The rapid progress in aviation was driven by the need to have better bombers, which necessitated better fighters to intercept them, which drove the need for better bombers...

Similarly the progress in IT and computing was driven by the need for smaller, faster computers to enable more accurate targeting of smaller and more difficult to intercept warheads, which drove the need for better radars and tracking systems to intercept them, which results in a need for smaller, faster computers...

Meanwhile, the railways just plod along.
 

ComUtoR

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You've made a statement but you haven't given any reasons why you are looking forward to it.

Is it due to strikes?

Seriously WTF with the strike comment.

However; I'm of an age and generation where technology has grown and I am fully part of this era. I was stunned how backwards the railway was when I joined, especially as someone I know said he loved the tech trains had. Automation is making our lives easier. Giving me an easy life ? yeah I'm all for that. It is also a level of safety for the passenger so again, I have to support that. The negative side of automated system are minimal and are typically due to the human element. It will protect me from incidents so job security is better too.

I have driven a 400 unit and my most current "modern" EMU is a 376. The differences are vast. Do people really want to be stuck in a 400 style unit ? All the old stock get a bad press and passengers hate the **** they have been shoveled and cry out for new units. There is a thread somewhere with people complaining about the WiFI signal !! Everything inside me is screaming out for the railway to push forward. Wether its tech for the passenger or tech for the Driver. The reality is that even those who balked loudly at the various automated system we have, have come to realize the benefits. Imagine taking it away ?

So yes. I'm looking forward to it.


@naja
A very interesting perspective :)

Would you say that trains have peaked ? Are we already at a point where its almost perfect. Sure there is some icing to be done but effectively trains already do their job very well.

Do people see automation to be surplus to requirement and nothing more than a vanity project or one done purely to boost the economy or even to appease the public ?
 
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najaB

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A very interesting perspective :)

Would you say that trains have peaked ? Are we already at a point where its almost perfect. Sure there is some icing to be done but effectively trains already do their job very well.

Do people see automation to be surplus to requirement and nothing more than a vanity project or one done purely to boost the economy or even to appease the public ?
It hasn't peaked, there is a lot that can be done to make things more reliable and safer (though they are already very safe). Just there is not compelling national security interest like there was in aviation in the 1930's to 1990's. I truly believe that aspects of ATO will make an appearance in the drivers cab - in the 2030's the role of a train driver will be more like that of an airline pilot today: they will mainly monitor systems, ready to take over if the automation can't handle the situation, but a lot of the time they won't actually be manually controlling the speed. I don't foresee an empty cab any more than you have empty cockpits today.
 

ComUtoR

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I don't foresee an empty cab any more than you have empty cockpits today.

Neither do I.

I think its level 2 ATO that we will end up with where there will still be a Driver up front. Even so the widespread introduction is way of. ERTMS seems to be the next step to take first with ATO in confined areas like the Thameslink Core/Crossrail.

Anyone here know how Cambria is doing and experience it on a daily basis ?
 

Juniper Driver

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Seriously WTF with the strike comment.

Thanks for the in-depth answer.The strike comment wasn't meant to be an insult (apologies) towards you but with the recent tube strikes and how much drivers are overpaid and the negative comments resulting in the usual "I can't wait till computers replace you drivers",comments.I thought this may be one of the reasons.

Not the fact the railway is far behind other industries.Even been to Thailand? Their railway is like our railway was in the 1980's.
 

bramling

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None of the performance data accords with the facts which I got from LU on a reasonably official basis. Are you suggesting that they are telling porkies? What's your information based on?
.

Take a trip on the Jubilee or Northern Lines, and see what speed the train is doing when the front car enters a surface platform. A manually driven train in good adhesion should be doing approx 30-35 mph (assuming no lower speed reriction). Seltrac ATO currently achieves 22 mph.

On the Northern Line alone this applies at 24 out of 91 platforms, excluding termini. I make this over 25 percent. In distance terms it's probably more as the open sections tend to be longer between stations.
 

D1009

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Does anyone have any detailed figures on the effect this has had on planned journey times on the Northern Line?
 

bramling

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Does anyone have any detailed figures on the effect this has had on planned journey times on the Northern Line?

It's hard to quantify because as part of the upgrade the traction power of the trains was increased (previously the motor output was capped by software restriction), and also maximum line speed has been increased from 40 or 45 mph to 50 mph.
 

DerekC

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Take a trip on the Jubilee or Northern Lines, and see what speed the train is doing when the front car enters a surface platform. A manually driven train in good adhesion should be doing approx 30-35 mph (assuming no lower speed reriction). Seltrac ATO currently achieves 22 mph.

22mph at entry corresponds with a brake rate setting of 0.4 m/s/s in ATO, which is what LU say they use in poor adhesion conditions. Are you suggesting this is what they use all the time on surface sections of Northern? If so I will try to find out why, because it contradicts the information provided a couple of years ago.

As regards time, the difference between stopping at 0.4 m/s/s and 0.8 m/s/s is about 7 seconds over the platform length, but if this applies all the way down from 40 mph it will be more. Against this is that a properly tuned ATO shouldn't need to "flare out" before the stop, which is what most human drivers do. This saves a few seconds.
 

Dave1987

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This thread is slowly becoming more and more infuriating to read as it goes on!

Eliminating all the other potential issues to do with degraded working and just focussing on rail adhesion there are several key points. As any mainline driver knows adhesion forecasts are an advisory system put in place by NR so you know to be aware that rail conditions in particular areas might be bad. It doesn't mean they are bad. And other areas besides those areas might also be bad. Basing your braking on an ATO train on adhesion forecasts just means you are either going to be losing a lot of time because you ATO train has started braking miles before it needed to, or your ATO train is going to slide right through the station because the conditions are worse than you programmed it for. A human driver on the other hand is able to read the conditions based on their experience and reports from other drivers. I have a good 30 odd years of my driving career ahead of me (subject to keeping my record clean) and cannot foresee their not being someone at the pointy end for the next 50 plus years. What I can see though is technology used to assist the driver and make human error less and less likely. Like as been said repeatedly ATO is a vast expense for little or no benefit.
 
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Radedamer

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Very basic question here: why do trains not have antilock brakes? Is it just, or mostly, that it would be too expensive due to the number of wheels needing to be monitored?
 

Dave1987

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Very basic question here: why do trains not have antilock brakes? Is it just, or mostly, that it would be too expensive due to the number of wheels needing to be monitored?

They do its called WSP (wheel slip/slide protection), combined with automatic sanders. But it only assists with the problem of wheels locking or slipping. It doesn't prevent it.
 
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ComUtoR

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combined with automatic sanders.

Both a blessing and a curse for us :/

On one side it is a good form of automation and as we both say, its an aid to the Driver. On the other side, on one of our units we lost the ability for on demand sand. If the computer believes you need sand it will light up and you can get a little extra but you are at the mercy of the computer. Sadly its not great and I have almost never used it.

The auto sander also only works in step 2 ! so the brake policy was changed to use step 2 first so that it deliberately kicks in the wsp and lays sand <(

I must admit there is an art to driving in the slip. One I doubt the computer is capable of. From what I see from this thread and others is that it reduces the speed and alters the braking curve. Last night I kept it to notch 2/3 and didn't use 4. I was driving by feel and experience.

Does ATO have AI or some form of it. or is it all pre programed in advance ?
 

bramling

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22mph at entry corresponds with a brake rate setting of 0.4 m/s/s in ATO, which is what LU say they use in poor adhesion conditions. Are you suggesting this is what they use all the time on surface sections of Northern? If so I will try to find out why, because it contradicts the information provided a couple of years ago.

As regards time, the difference between stopping at 0.4 m/s/s and 0.8 m/s/s is about 7 seconds over the platform length, but if this applies all the way down from 40 mph it will be more. Against this is that a properly tuned ATO shouldn't need to "flare out" before the stop, which is what most human drivers do. This saves a few seconds.

Yes. The reason given is because of the likelihood of the VOBCs halting if the train goes into a slide, and the time then taken for the VOBCs to be re-entered into the system, which involves travelling at slow speed to the next inductive loop. In some cases the gentle brake rate will be all the way down from 50 mph, and in the future may be from 62 mph which is intended to be the maximum speed in the long-term on selected sections.

If you're referring to the human knocking the brake off before stopping, this is done to give a smooth stop, and shouldn't cost more than a second. A good ATO system should have this designed in anyway.

Not that the tunnel braking is necessarily better either. To give an example, at Elephant & Castle southbound there is a point on the tunnel wall where the tunnel changes shape, which many drivers used to use as a marker to start braking from 20 mph. Now ATO is in, the speed coming into that platform has reduced from 20 mph to 18 mph -- guess what, the ATO starts braking *earlier*, from a lower speed. However this is starting to digress from the usefulness of ATO on the mainline.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Very basic question here: why do trains not have antilock brakes? Is it just, or mostly, that it would be too expensive due to the number of wheels needing to be monitored?

They do, but same as with cars it only mitigates, it doesn't fully remove the issue. It works by momentarily releasing brakes on individual wheels if the system detects the wheel has locked up. Naturally it follows that with brakes releasing all over the train, brake force is reduced, although the idea is that it's still more brake force than would be the case if the wheels remained locked up. Where the train eventually stops will depend on how bad the conditions are and whether the wheels start turning again when the system re-applies the brakes.

It's similar to driving a car on ice, if the conditions are bad enough it will slide -- and in the worst cases a train can slide for miles. The only real mitigation is anticipation and driving accordingly. Sand is not guaranteed to work either, and the problem with sand is that if you use it all the time then eventually it will run out.
 
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ComUtoR

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Sand is not guaranteed to work either, and the problem with sand is that if you use it all the time then eventually it will run out.

We now have a system (automated...) where it will tell you if the hopper is empty. The human factor of a manual check has been mitigated by the computer. After Stonegate something needed to be done.
 

Dave1987

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We now have a system (automated...) where it will tell you if the hopper is empty. The human factor of a manual check has been mitigated by the computer. After Stonegate something needed to be done.

I've heard of sand boxes being empty even though the computer said it was full because sand was covering the sensor used to calculate the amount in there, and on the other hand I've seen low sand warnings on the computer to physically look and see plenty in there. Computers are only as good as the data they receive.
 

notadriver

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We now have a system (automated...) where it will tell you if the hopper is empty. The human factor of a manual check has been mitigated by the computer. After Stonegate something needed to be done.


The system should stop you using sand for traction if it drops below a certain level. Saying that I can deploy sand at any time on my traction (the button doesn't light up) but I try to use it sparingly.
 

ComUtoR

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I think (keeping things on topic) that part of the problems with getting full ato onto the mainline is precisely because we see the smaller forms of automation, such as the sander, still not being able to properly cope with the reality of train driving. ATO would have a higher degree of safety protocols etc but it still clearly has a very very long way to go.

If we can't get the sander right then how are we to get a full blown automated train right.
 
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