Train drivers offered pay rise in bid to end strikes

[dctraindriver]

I’m more concerned about some of the other points in that document.

I can’t see Driver Managers happy about this. Their workload will skyrocket.

New driver salary progression could take up to 4 years to hit 100% salary.

T&C’s and local agreements are what they’re really after, not just a 7 day railway…….

Pensions next I strongly suspect.

 

[47434]

Really? I've never been offered a gp appointment on a Sunday, or even a Saturday for that matter

Neither have I but then again most GP's don't work directly for the NHS. I have however been to A&E on a Sunday or visited my parents in hospital over a weekend.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

You may believe that this should be true. It seems that it is clearly not the case with committed overtime.

So if you want a Sunday off how do you get it? If it’s overtime it can’t be forced. That’s literally what overtime is. Spending time at work over and above your contracted hours.

 

[martin2345uk]

So if you want a Sunday off how do you get it? If it’s overtime it can’t be forced. That’s literally what overtime is. Spending time at work over and above your contracted hours.

I think the point is, if you can't find cover, you don't get it off, even if you want to.

 

[Pacerpilot]

I think the point is, if you can't find cover, you don't get it off, even if you want to.

That's how it worked at a previous TOC that had committed Sundays. If it couldn't be covered , you worked. And only found out if you had it off or not the Wednesday before so you couldn't even plan anything. It really is the worst of both worlds.

 

[mandub]

So if you want a Sunday off how do you get it? If it’s overtime it can’t be forced. That’s literally what overtime is. Spending time at work over and above your contracted hours.

Welcome to the railway (some TOC's).

It is forced overtime, you face disciplinary action if you refuse to attend.
And as it's not part of your working week you cannot book the day off.

You can put in a request to make yourself not available & other drivers can put themselves forward to work an extra Sunday. So if you're lucky you'll get the day off, but you'll only find out at 72hrs notice, not much use if it's a long planned event etc

 

[Llanigraham]

So if you want a Sunday off how do you get it? If it’s overtime it can’t be forced. That’s literally what overtime is. Spending time at work over and above your contracted hours.

As I said earlier, if you want your committed Sunday off then you find another (in the signalling world) member of your roster group or Box staff to do your shift. If there is no-one willing to do that then you work. That is what it states in all signallers contracts and as has been said here exactly the same for drivers (and guards)

 

[XIX7007177]

Welcome to the railway (some TOC's).

It is forced overtime, you face disciplinary action if you refuse to attend.
And as it's not part of your working week you cannot book the day off.

You can put in a request to make yourself not available & other drivers can put themselves forward to work an extra Sunday. So if you're lucky you'll get the day off, but you'll only find out at 72hrs notice, not much use if it's a long planned event etc

Have a Sunday only illness?

 

[InkyScrolls]

4 hrs? More like 2 & a half totops.

I stand corrected! I've checked with Google and it's nowhere near as far as I thought.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I’m not sure forced overtime is even legal.

Either way, sounds great when you have a wedding to attend in 18 months and only find three days beforehand that you can’t actually go. You need to have a way of booking a day off work.

I predict a whole lot of Sunday only sickness in the future.

Fwiw, on companies that have ‘committed Sundays’ already, plenty of crew just don’t bother coming in. Nothing can be done, because it’s overtime and you cannot be disciplined for not working overtime.

 

[irish_rail]

I’m not sure forced overtime is even legal.

Either way, sounds great when you have a wedding to attend in 18 months and only find three days beforehand that you can’t actually go. You need to have a way of booking a day off work.

I predict a whole lot of Sunday only sickness in the future.

Fwiw, on companies that have ‘committed Sundays’ already, plenty of crew just don’t bother coming in. Nothing can be done, because it’s overtime and you cannot be disciplined for not working overtime.

Agreed. The old fatigue card may be played also. Frankly most people will get fatigued if forced to work a 6 day week, especially if that 6 day week involves a 4am alarm every day. The Dft need to recognise that train driving isn't like an office job and that fatigue needs to be considered when coming out with this kind of nonsense.

 

[Horizon22]

That's how it worked at a previous TOC that had committed Sundays. If it couldn't be covered , you worked. And only found out if you had it off or not the Wednesday before so you couldn't even plan anything. It really is the worst of both worlds.

Yes its that. However in certain roles people will bite your hand off for a Sunday.

I’m not sure forced overtime is even legal.

Well its been in place for many years at certain TOCs if you agree that's what the definition of "committed Sundays" ultimately is.

 

[NI 271]

Neither have I but then again most GP's don't work directly for the NHS. I have however been to A&E on a Sunday or visited my parents in hospital over a weekend.

And tens of thousands of people catch trains every Sunday. The point you reply to isn't a great one, but it IS a fair one. Both the NHS and the railway provide, as do pretty much every other sector of industry, a lesser offering on a Sunday. The railway's Sunday service provision is, compared to the Mon-Fri one, far greater than that of the NHS.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I’m not sure forced overtime is even legal.

Either way, sounds great when you have a wedding to attend in 18 months and only find three days beforehand that you can’t actually go. You need to have a way of booking a day off work.

Isn't that what ALR is for ? If your wedding is that important you will surely be booking ALR for it and you surely have to have so many Sundays available as leave

 

[Pacerpilot]

Isn't that what ALR is for ? If your wedding is that important you will surely be booking ALR for it and you surely have to have so many Sundays available as leave

As Sundays aren't part of the working week you aren't able to take them as annual leave. That's why committed Sundays are so bloody awful

 

[Wyrleybart]

As Sundays aren't part of the working week you aren't able to take them as annual leave. That's why committed Sundays are so bloody awful

But surely you are able to book off a few sundays as part of block leave allocation ? If you have a fortnight in June and a fortnight in November to go to the Costa Lotta your middle Sundays will presumably automatically be Sundays off for you ?

 

[Starmill]

I’m not sure forced overtime is even legal.

Which law are you suggesting it would break to make it a part of your contract of service? As long as it's not a working week of more than 48 hours, averaged over 17 weeks, you work whatever your contract says that you work. If you can but just don't want to, you're in breach of your contract.

The way some companies have brought in "committed Sundays" isn't popular and is quite illogical, but that doesn't make it unlawful. It does not sound sensible to me to expand it by any means, but it seems likely it will be.

 

[Facing Back]

As Sundays aren't part of the working week you aren't able to take them as annual leave. That's why committed Sundays are so bloody awful

Is that true? If you have a wedding in x months time you can't book it off as leave?

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Well it’s been in place for many years at certain TOCs if you agree that's what the definition of "committed Sundays" ultimately is.

It may have been in place but plenty of crew haven’t worked their ‘booked’ Sundays in that time and haven’t been disciplined for it. Because you can’t be disciplined for not working overtime.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

Is that true? If you have a wedding in x months time you can't book it off as leave?

No, not on a Sunday. You can Monday - Saturday but as Sundays are outside the working week you can’t book them off. You have no way of getting rid of a Sunday unless someone else will cover your shift, which may be ok in January but is impossible in August.

 

[Facing Back]

Fwiw, on companies that have ‘committed Sundays’ already, plenty of crew just don’t bother coming in. Nothing can be done, because it’s overtime and you cannot be disciplined for not working overtime.

Rubbish

 

[Anvil1984]

Is that true? If you have a wedding in x months time you can't book it off as leave?

If the wedding is on a Sunday (or even a Saturday night and having a distance to travel after or many other reasons). Then under "committed" Sundays you can't attempt to take it as Daily Leave or even do a swap in advance with a colleague

 

[Facing Back]

If the wedding is on a Sunday (or even a Saturday night and having a distance to travel after or many other reasons). Then under "committed" Sundays you can't attempt to take it as Daily Leave or even do a swap in advance with a colleague

ok, that I don't thing is reasonable

 

[riceuten]

I’m not sure forced overtime is even legal.

Either way, sounds great when you have a wedding to attend in 18 months and only find three days beforehand that you can’t actually go. You need to have a way of booking a day off work.

I predict a whole lot of Sunday only sickness in the future.

Fwiw, on companies that have ‘committed Sundays’ already, plenty of crew just don’t bother coming in. Nothing can be done, because it’s overtime and you cannot be disciplined for not working overtime.

Companies draw up contracts saying that "your working hours are xxx, and you will be liable to work overtime on these days, at these times" - this is how they get around it.

Frankly, a large proportion of a particular political wing's industrial relations strategy can be encapsulated in "YOU SHOULD BE GLAD YOU HAVE A JOB", sadly.

 

[irish_rail]

Rubbish

Not rubbish. Certainly on GWR, not a single driver has been disciplined for not turning up for their "overtime " Sunday. How can you possibly discipline someone who refuses to work overtime?!

 

[Mcrdvr]

Attached

Cheers!

 

[Anvil1984]

ok, that I don't thing is reasonable

At my TOC anyway its basically because having Sundays outside the week, but as overtime means that there are no "Spare" guard turns are on the base roster. If the Sundays were inside the week they've got to include spares. You can't have paid Daily Leave on what is essentially overtime and can't swap in advance (again at least at my TOC) because the Sundays have to go through "equalisation" (person with the lowest amount of overtime shifts gets the job) and a little bit of "why is this person available to cover your shift on overtime but not this uncovered one?"

 

[Pacerpilot]

The more I read it, the more I think this is just like the offer made to the RMT. It was designed to never be accepted

 

[choochoochoo]

The only rostered Sunday we're guaranteed off is the one that’s in the middle of our allocated two week leave.

 

[Gorlash1886]

Reading the last few posts is making me glad my Sundays are inside.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

The bad part is I often pick up some overtime on Sundays but it's my choice

 

[bramling]

Welcome to the railway (some TOC's).

It is forced overtime, you face disciplinary action if you refuse to attend.
And as it's not part of your working week you cannot book the day off.

You can put in a request to make yourself not available & other drivers can put themselves forward to work an extra Sunday. So if you're lucky you'll get the day off, but you'll only find out at 72hrs notice, not much use if it's a long planned event etc

If this is what is planned then it’s absolute lunacy. The sooner this utterly rancid government is voted out the better.