Train drivers offered pay rise in bid to end strikes

[ComUtoR]

Surely, it's the changes to terms that is the key requirement for the government to achieve ?

Yes. The Gov wants reform and in all honesty, we all do.

Aren't pay increases only going to happen once the changes have been agreed?

Probably not in the way you are thinking. The pay 'deal' is a negotiation where terms and conditions are changed and simultaneously pay is offered in return. It's all one big giant 'deal' It's a huge contribution to why the railway moves so slowly and reform takes years.

Other places I've worked, the pay rise is independent of any changes to your contract. Some people have wage increases linked to performance/KPI. Some have annual pay reviews, PDR (personal development reviews) etc. There are many ways pay gets negotiated in different industries.

The railway seems to lump it all in under one annual 'deal' so nothing happens till the next deal and in some cases its 2/3yrs gaps at a time. If, for example, a deal was accepted and was 3yr deal but it didn't have Sunday working. It will take another 3yrs before it even gets put back on the table. TOCs also don't negotiate outside their franchise; so any change gets limited again. It is also a problem of the condition changes being limited to that specific deal. If we agreed to a two year (4%/4%) deal it would need to have any changes to the terms and conditions being implemented this year as out last year has been and gone and any chance at potential changes for this year are rapidly dying away. There wouldn't be any agreements to changes to our terms in 2024 unless a deal put to us is a multi year deal.

As the staff here are saying; this will all still need to go down to the individual TOC. My TOC works Sunday inside and DOO. Two big clauses that the Gov are asking for but we already have. The RDG aren't being totally clear about anything and what's being put out doesn't reflect the reality of what is still to come and what will actually happen in reality.

 

[Horizon22]

What are the practicalities of Sunday working in other similar countries.. France or Germany for instance? Is there something specific about the British situation which makes this 'virtually impossible to reconcile'?

It isn’t impossible to reconcile. But it will cost more and the DfT can’t have their cake and eat it like they are trying to do currently.

 

[Evelynm]

The "problem" is that people want to travel on Sundays (and Saturdays and bank holidays). Especially if they work Monday to Friday

The days of everyone staying at home on Sundays and going to church are long gone

And it may surprise you... the failing, crisis-ridden NHS does operate on Sundays.... (Except senior managers and consultants)

Really? I've never been offered a gp appointment on a Sunday, or even a Saturday for that matter

 

[ComUtoR]

In the end there is a choice of careers. If you want to work 9am to 5:30pm Monday to Friday you should choose an office career. If you want to work on the railway, shifts and weekends are part of the deal.

But this way of thinking doesn't fit with the modern world and even the Government wants that reflected. Flexible working, part time, hybrid working is the new norm. 9-5 rat race office work is just as much of a dinosaur as the railway is.

I chose an office based career, where most work being Monday to Friday is the norm. Part of the reason I did is that.

Many chose the railway because Sunday isn't the norm and they are voluntary.

If the Government wants part time and flexible working then we need to accept that 'shifts and weekends' are no longer part of the deal and that people will be able to choose their availability before joining.

 

[12LDA28C]

Unless you're a Thameslink Bedford driver and get asked to cover at Brighton

If you can get there and back within your booking on and off times and still get a PNB etc then perfectly reasonable. Unlikely in your given example, but reasonable.

 

[bramling]

What are the practicalities of Sunday working in other similar countries.. France or Germany for instance? Is there something specific about the British situation which makes this 'virtually impossible to reconcile'?

No idea on the former, however I'd hazard a guess that the answer to the latter may well be yes, namely that this country has a nasty habit where people want to have things but seem less keen to personally pay for them. Attitudes in this country stink at times.

 

[43066]

Hmm this is a bit of the “chicken and egg” scenario - is it reduced because there’s normally such a late start up and considerable engineering works and people have gotten used to and planned accordingly? Is the demand artificially suppressed? Or have we done more engineering works and a reduced timetable on Sundays because of traditionally lower Sunday demand?

I would take an educated guess that the current situation is because it is the latter scenario but demand for weekends is well above 100% now so perhaps it is out of kilter with the post-Covid travel demand.

It is chicken and egg to an extent, but exactly the same analysis applies to most industries: many business would have demand if they opened on Sundays, but choose not to. In terms of shopping, it wasn’t so long ago that essentially *nothing* opened on Sundays (pre the 1994 act enabling largely current levels of Sunday trading).

However you look at it Sunday being generally considered a “day off” is a very long established cultural norm in this country.

In terms of the railway there’s a difference here between operators: long distance IC services start later, and arguably under provide for current Sunday demand, whereas local commuter services start earlier, but are over provided at extreme ends of the day.

It isn’t impossible to reconcile. But it will cost more and the DfT can’t have their cake and eat it like they are trying to do currently.

Absolutely.

If you can get there and back within your booking on and off times and still get a PNB etc then perfectly reasonable. Unlikely in your given example, but reasonable.

Indeed. Or a Brighton spare would work the absent driver’s train to Bedford and pass back, then a Bedford spare might work it to Brighton and pass back. Or pass to meet it half way etc.

Or (more likely) they would just cancel it as there are no spares at either depot!

 

[GN Boy]

Indeed. Or a Brighton spare would work the absent driver’s train to Bedford and pass back, then a Bedford spare might work it to Brighton and pass back. Or pass to meet it half way etc.

Or (more likely) they will just cancel it as there are no spares at either depot!

Very much the norm between various GN depots and Brighton/Horsham.

 

[bramling]

It is chicken and egg, but exactly the same analysis applies to most industries: many business would have demand if they opened on Sundays, but choose not to. In terms of shopping, it wasn’t so long ago that essentially *nothing* opened on Sundays (pre the 1994 act enabling largely current levels of Sunday trading).

And in that sense, this is a politically produced problem. Implementing a change without considering the wider implications. That's politicians to a tee, unfortunately.

Not unique to the railway either, look no further than the NHS for an example of ghost towns at weekends. This is arguably much more of a pressing issue, as ISTR there are statistics which show you're more likely to have a bad outcome if you fall unwell at the weekend. Not sure how one fixes this given the NHS, like the railway, can barely provide its services on the other days of the week...

 

[nlogax]

No idea on the former, however I'd hazard a guess that the answer to the latter may well be yes, namely that this country has a nasty habit where people want to have things but seem less keen to personally pay for them. Attitudes in this country stink at times.

Indeed we do have a long tradition of not wanting to spend money on anything vital, or going with make-do-and-mend / just enough to make something work to the lowest levels of service or standards. It's an embarrassing state of affairs. From afar we must look cheap and utterly short-sighted.

 

[TrainSpy]

Thanks. Sounds as I suspected then, that the Government are continuing to drag this out and don't have any intention of making a reasonable offer any time soon. And to announce it to the media on Friday, but not put it to those who the offer is actually for for another four days, is completely unacceptable. Sadly not a surprise with the Tories.

I don't mean to be awkward, but I am going to keep pointing out that Mick himself has confirmed that he received the offer on Friday night in his own tweets. We can obviously discuss whether any offer is reasonable or not (my opinion - no way it is going to fly as it is!)!

 

[bramling]

Indeed we do have a long tradition of not wanting to spend money on anything vital, or going with make-do-and-mend / just enough to make something work to the lowest levels of service or standards. It's an embarrassing state of affairs. From afar we must look cheap and utterly short-sighted.

It probably doesn't help that successive governments have tended to focus on the provision of low-wage jobs. The problem with this is that these don't contribute much in the way of tax revenue. Again there are some interesting figures on how a relatively small proportion of the population pay a disproportionate amount of the total tax take. To be fair to Liz Truss, she absolutely did recognise this problem, just rather a shame her attempt at addressing the problem was found wanting...

As a country we *ought* to be able to afford good stuff, yet everything seems to be on a shoestring - a trend which looks set to get considerably worse in the current climate.

 

[TrainSpy]

Not sure it’s true to say TOCs are actively looking at this (or anything else) under the current arrangements? They’re prohibited by the NRCs from negotiating on a local level and, in any case, are currently quite happy being paid to run little to no service, as they’re not taking revenue risk.

From what I see, they are... Sundays the fastest growing day in terms of passenger numbers. The high yield pre-covid commuters and business travellers just don't exist any more, and where we have seen Pax increases, its on low-yield off peak or discounted fares. On average each passenger journey today is worth 30-40% less in ££ terms. So the only way you can increase revenue (and taking a commercial TOC view for a second) and make the case for the gvt to give them back revenue risk incentives is by encouraging more leisure travellers. The first place you go for additional customers is where they are travelling already - therefore weekends. That's also why they're not happy to just run a service at the direction of gvt.

The NRC's don't prohibit local negotiating. They do require any changes that impact budgets to be agreed by gvt, as it is now taxpayers money.

The current national principles approach to negotiating was agreed by unions as part of the Enabling Framework Agreement sometime in 2021.

 

[43066]

I don't mean to be awkward, but I am going to keep pointing out that Mick himself has confirmed that he received the offer on Friday night in his own tweets. We can obviously discuss whether any offer is reasonable or not (my opinion - no way it is going to fly as it is!)!

@DanNCL has it exactly right.

The “offer” was leaked to the media late on a Friday afternoon, at best simultaneous to it being sent to the union, before there had been any sensible discussion of it. This was clearly a deliberate strategy.

That is hardly reasonable negotiation practice and those tactics have made a favourable reception less not more likely.

That's also why they're not happy to just run a service at the direction of gvt.

They are perfectly happy to do so while the current arrangements continue. They don’t have much choice.

The NRC's don't prohibit local negotiating. They do require any changes that impact budgets to be agreed by gvt, as it is now taxpayers money.

Sorry but you are arguing black is white. The NRCs (have you actually read them?) essentially make any negotiation impossible, on pain of losing government support. Any dispute has to be referred upwards the government via the clearly defined Dispute Handling Policy - there is no meaningful independent local negotiation by TOCs possible under these agreements.

The current national principles approach to negotiating was agreed by unions as part of the Enabling Framework Agreement sometime in 2021.

Agreed or acknowledged?!

Either way, the position now is that the unions are asking to negotiate in the normal way, the government have continued to prevent this (via the aforementioned NRCs) while simultaneously telling the media that the dispute is merely between employers and unions and nothing to do with them.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I believe that with committed Sundays a driver would be expected to work a Sunday as rostered however if they wanted to not work and have the day off instead, they would have to arrange cover and if they were unsuccessful in that endeavour then they would have to work their booked Sunday, as rostered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

If it’s overtime, you can’t be forced to work it. The DfT need to sort it out so Sunday is a proper working day, not a ‘have cake and eat it’ enforced voluntary day.

 

[Facing Back]

If it’s overtime, you can’t be forced to work it.

You may believe that this should be true. It seems that it is clearly not the case with committed overtime.

 

[John Bishop]

I believe that with committed Sundays a driver would be expected to work a Sunday as rostered however if they wanted to not work and have the day off instead, they would have to arrange cover and if they were unsuccessful in that endeavour then they would have to work their booked Sunday, as rostered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

Yes, that correct and how it operates up here in sunny Scotland. It generally works quite well in that, those who don’t want to work Sunday make themselves unavailable and others who are quite happy to work will collect their colleagues shift for overtime or another Lieu day. The shifts are always covered and the Sunday service is, in the most part, fine.

Obviously, if nobody can cover your shift, you are contractually obligated to work it.

 

[mandub]

If it’s overtime, you can’t be forced to work it. The DfT need to sort it out so Sunday is a proper working day, not a ‘have cake and eat it’ enforced voluntary day.

Yep.
How many committed Sundays might I have to work.
We have approx 1 in 4 at the moment.

But if the reasoning is that Sundays are growing in user numbers and we need more services then how many extra days work will it be.
2 a month, 3 a month?
All on top of the normal full working week with no other days off to compensate and with no option to book the day off with annual leave etc.
It's not acceptable to me.
It should be Sundays in the week if they want more services.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Unless you're a Thameslink Bedford driver and get asked to cover at Brighton

Or a Northern Leeds driver asked to cover a Carlisle, which has been known to happen! Four hours in a taxi does not appeal. . .

 

[TrainSpy]

@DanNCL has it exactly right.

The “offer” was leaked to the media late on a Friday afternoon, at best simultaneous to it being sent to the union, before there had been any sensible discussion of it. This was clearly a deliberate strategy.

Even if true, that's hardly "exactly right" - @DanNCL said "days later", that's a pretty big difference and I think that matters when we're talking about it. Completely agree there was no opportunity for any sensible discussion of it. They say the offer was made at 1518 - rather precise, and hardly "late in the day"...

That is hardly reasonable negotiation practice and those tactics have made a favourable reception less not more likely.

Probably not, but it's a tactic used by unions when announcing strike dates, for example. My point is not to condone the practice, but to acknowledge that unreasonableness comes both ways.

They are perfectly happy to do so while the current arrangements continue. They don’t have much choice.



Sorry but you are arguing black is white. The NRCs (have you actually read them?) essentially make any negotiation impossible, on pain of losing government support. Any dispute has to be referred upwards the government via the clearly defined Dispute Handling Policy - there is no meaningful independent local negotiation by TOCs possible under these agreements.

I have (more than the two particular TOC NRCs quote in the stuff they've circulated). None of them prohibit local negotiation. What makes discussion difficult is that in the current system is that TOCs are responsible to the DfT for changes to budget - as they have been for the past 2 and a half years. The politicisation of the discussions certainly make it difficult.

Agreed or acknowledged?!

Either way, the position now is that the unions are asking to negotiate in the normal way, the government have continued to prevent this (via the aforementioned NRCs) while simultaneously telling the media that the dispute is merely between employers and unions and nothing to do with them.

A fair distinction to make, but the doc has their logo on it, and I haven't seen a fuss made about it until now.

 

[class 9]

Any different to what RDG released Friday?

It's a lot more than the RDG release, 7 pages, haven't had a chance to read it yet

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

Or a Northern Leeds driver asked to cover a Carlisle, which has been known to happen! Four hours in a taxi does not appeal. . .

4hrs??? More like 2 & a half tops.

 

[Mcrdvr]

It's a lot more than the RDG release, 7 pages, haven't had a chance to read it yet

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==


4hrs??? More like 2 & a half tops.

Do you have a link to the 7 page doc please?

 

[Llanigraham]

If it’s overtime, you can’t be forced to work it. The DfT need to sort it out so Sunday is a proper working day, not a ‘have cake and eat it’ enforced voluntary day.

Sorry but you are wrong.
In the signalling grades Sundays are committed and paid as overtime, but unless you can get someone else to take your shift you are required by your contract to work it.

 

[DoubleO]

Attached

 

[eldomtom2]

The TOCs Proposal will provide for a robust system to deliver a seven-day railway where
Sundays are worked that are in addition to the basic average contracted working hours per
week. This will require a variation to the working arrangements of those employees to give
effect to the Principles of a Sunday Commitment Protocol and will mean that employees who
are rostered to work a Sunday shift are committed and contractually required to work their
shift where alternative competent employees cannot be identified to cover.

Am I reading this right? Are they proposing to force staff to work Sundays in addition to their regular hours?

 

[XIX7007177]

Attached

Seems like 7 pages of waffle that will be hard to implement or will be implemented unsuccessfully when it hits reality.

 

[irish_rail]

If you’re a railway worker who has signed a contract saying Sundays are outside of the working week it expressly isn’t part of the deal.

Spot on

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

The "problem" is that people want to travel on Sundays (and Saturdays and bank holidays). Especially if they work Monday to Friday

The days of everyone staying at home on Sundays and going to church are long gone

And it may surprise you... the failing, crisis-ridden NHS does operate on Sundays.... (Except senior managers and consultants)

And as has been pointed out numerous times, Aslef, and the vast majority of drivers are more than happy to allow Sunday as part of the working week. What we don't want is to be forced to work it as overtime. Hardly unreasonable.

 

[mandub]

Am I reading this right? Are they proposing to force staff to work Sundays in addition to their regular hours?

Yes.
And no mention of any upper limit on how many Sundays you will be mandated to work over and above your working week

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Yep, as I said previously, it needs doing properly or not at all. Get Sundays in the full working week if you want a full reliable service. Potentially being forced to do three out of four Sundays as enforced overtime is not the way.

 

[Pacerpilot]

If they want Sundays then they go in the working week, where the pay is pensionable, with another day off during the week. Being forced to work 6 days is unreasonable. But they don't want to pay for that.