Train drivers offered pay rise in bid to end strikes

[Thirteen]

Not that politicians need defending but is worth pointing out that MPs do use the days they're not in Parliament to do surgeries and those can be either Fridays or Saturdays and while they do get paid well, it's not the cushy job some think it is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you’re a railway worker who has signed a contract saying Sundays are outside of the working week it expressly isn’t part of the deal.

Indeed, but this could be solved by new contracts including working Sunday every week, then evening it out over time as people leave, plus you could offer people an increase to change their contract to include Sundays, plenty would take it.

One of the issues here is the baseless objection to having people on different contracts and pay rates, which is the norm in commerce.

 

[Efini92]

Indeed, but this could be solved by new contracts including working Sunday every week, then evening it out over time as people leave, plus you could offer people an increase to change their contract to include Sundays, plenty would take it.

One of the issues here is the baseless objection to having people on different contracts and pay rates, which is the norm in commerce.

In fairness there’s a few tocs with multiple different contracts within. However that’s been caused by TUPE rather than agreeing something new.

I don’t think we’ll see anywhere that hasn’t got Sunday in the working becoming part of the working week. The TOC’s can’t keep up with recruitment at the minute, increasing the establishment figures would make it even harder.

 

[43066]

Point taken and I agree, some parts of the NHS don't work on Sundays (or Saturdays) unless it is overtime or critical stuff like A&E and ITU. A few departments are now starting to work weekends, but this is staffed as overtime or bank.

And like the railway, lots of NHS staff don't want to work weekends....

That’s my point: it’s a skeleton service, staffed by overtime, just the same as the railway, yet the railway is always singled out as if it’s somehow unique.

I wonder why more GP surgeries can’t open more flexible hours to cope with the backlog of cases, for example (paying overtime if necessary).

In some respects I’m grateful to be working at a TOC which has Sundays inside. What a nightmare.

I agree. However I can also see why people with their Sundays outside might want to keep it that way. That is what they signed up for and something the TOCs have favoured for many years, after all.

It is but is there not a chance that some demand is being suppressed by lower capacity, engineering works etc?

Probably, but engineering work has to be done as some time, so while Sundays are the lowest demand days it makes sense for it to be then. There seems to be an increasing move to longer blockades over bank holiday weekends etc.

The shops that open for limited hours only do so because of their size and a legal mandate. Remove that and I bet you more would open for longer, and more people would go to them.

Perhaps that should change but, until it does, it’s part of the reason why Sundays are quieter (especially outside of 9-5 opening hours). Trains at 0700 on a Sunday are absolutely dead so ramping up services to carry fresh air around makes little sense.

Indeed, but this could be solved by new contracts including working Sunday every week, then evening it out over time as people leave, plus you could offer people an increase to change their contract to include Sundays.

One of the issues here is the baseless objection to having people on different contracts, which is the norm in commerce.

To be fair that’s exactly how it works where I am. Everyone joining has their Sundays inside, which they know they’re signing up for, existing drivers had a choice of remaining as they were or bringing their Sundays inside for a modest pay rise, to reflect the change to their Ts and Cs.

 

[notverydeep]

Between the 1980s and early 2000s, the rail industry (and many other areas of work) sought to gain efficiency by replacing a large variety of different incentive rates (time and a half, double time etc.) asscoiated with the less popular times to work (very late, nights, weekends, bank holidays, Christmas etc.). They did this by generally bringing the base salary up to the level that a typical employee would have got from these rates - an apparently significant increase. They were able to add a little bit because of the saving that this enabled. Hundreds of 'clerk' like jobs existed across this and similar industries to keep track of exactly which shifts were worked by which employee and therefore which rate should be paid - total it all up - and make the relevant payments. A basic rate for any time worked made this task much simpler and many of the staff required to calculate all of this were displaced and admin headcount was significantly reduced, saving enough money to share some with the operational staff in return for the improved productivity.

However, there was a catch. All of these shift allowances and incentives had developed for a reason. While individuals differ as to which times they prefer to work, people in generally are much less keen on working these same very late, night, weekend etc. shifts. This can be seen in the lower rates of attendance on these shifts as compared to shifts at more 'sociable' times. If the shift is unsociable to start with an average person is more likely to call in sick if they just have a few sniffles or are generally under the weather than they would with a better timed shift. To be clear - this isn't every one, all of the time, but enough to make full coverage of the available shifts more problematic. This would be countered by having an additional incentive: make Sundays / Boxing Day or whatever attractive enough and more employeese will choose to work rather than forego the incentive (again though, not everyone all of the time).

Ironically, if the industry had waited only a decade or so, computer packages from SAP, Microsoft, IBM and Oracle would have done away with the saved admin staff mentioned above anyway and tracked the appropriate shift payments much more cheaply and it would have retained incentives that would make shifts at unsocial hours more attractive. Instead the cost of the previous consolidation of these rates is a sunk cost that cannot realistically be reclaimed. To improve the incentives for people to work less sociable shifts would require focusing of any pay increase on new incentives over and above the current basic salary, rather than lifting the base pay scale. This is a seperate problem to that of high inflation, but trying to tackle both together in the current climate will be quite tricky to say the least...

As an aside, the above change has made it difficult to compare wages of industries that have no supplements for specific unsociable hours with those that still do, where the 'base salary' will appear lower, but the average salary for the same total hours will be closer. It makes rail staff vulnerable to being compared unfavourably to those who still have the opportunity to use additional incentives to make their salary higher than the published basic rates suggest.

 

[RPI]

Its worth noting that where the comparison is being made with BR days and their coverage of Sundays, the Sunday services back then were much less than now, with many lines having no Sunday service at all, so there was a lot less to cover.

 

[Prince of Wale]

I thought flexible rostering came in in 1982?

 

[NI 271]

So are you expecting people in offices to work 6 or 7 day weeks, then?

Bizarre question, this. Do you think everybody who already works weekends works 6 or 7 day weeks?

 

[XIX7007177]

I’m Sundays outside, coverage is never a problem. Sunday is more reliable than Saturday just less frequency.

 

[TrainSpy]

Not really what ASLEF/Whelan are saying today:

'After six and a half months waiting for a response to our reasonable request for an increase in pay for our members who have not had one since 2019, the RDG sent out an offer at the end of play on Friday and released elements to the press and media before we had even seen it'

It's funny how there can be so many different readings of things!! I see that as an admission that the statement ASLEF issued saying they hadn't received it was incorrect (perhaps willfully, but more likely they didn't check properly

I'm not sure how anyone can argue that half 3 is 'end of play' though...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

I'd be very surprised if that 'offer' even gets put to the members, although most drivers I know would vote to accept in the region of 5 to 6 per cent, dependent on conditions attached. Nobody is seriously expecting a rise in line with inflation.

Highly unlikely it will be accepted, but its got to be progress to get some things written down as a basis for discussion!

 

[AntoniC]

I think it’s shocking the way public sector workers have been treated over the past 12 years. Shame on them for treating so many people like this.

Thank you, I appreciate your comment

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair that’s exactly how it works where I am. Everyone joining has their Sundays inside, which they know they’re signing up for, existing drivers had a choice of remaining as they were or bringing their Sundays inside for a modest pay rise, to reflect the change to their Ts and Cs.

If one TOC can do that, that should perhaps be the standard, and it'll work itself through over time. They could also offer incentives (e.g. a financial "golden handshake") to switch to the new contract as you say.

Why isn't that the standard, then?

 

[TrainSpy]

For an industry that has long worked 7 days a week, for almost every day of the year it seems odd that it still seems surprised people might want to travel on a Sunday, or perhaps even Boxing Day. Just the same way people might want to go out for a trip, go shopping, go to a pub etc, etc.

I'm not sure the industry is surprised - it was heading that way pre-covid, but the numbers wanting to travel weren't hitting the numbers to make it worth kicking up a fuss to uplift service provision.

This side of covid, we've got a whole new business model to contend with - that removes a significant chunk of customers who had no other choice than to travel to work 5 days a week. For most of the past 40 years, customers have simply turned up - we've not really had to sell ourselves at all. In fact even our pricing strategies have been designed to deter customers from travelling (at least at particular times) rather than attract them.

The switch to actively encouraging travel has happened very rapidly, which is why we're now seeing TOCs look at things like this.

 

[Facing Back]

Why’s that? It’s overtime. If you don’t come in, you don’t get paid. But that’s the extent of it.

Not really. If it is committed then I assume that it is in your contract or terms and conditions of employment. If you don't work it then you are in breach of contract and subject to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal.

 

[43066]

If one TOC can do that, that should perhaps be the standard, and it'll work itself through over time. They could also offer incentives (e.g. a financial "golden handshake") to switch to the new contract as you say.

Why isn't that the standard, then?

Chiefly because it increases establishment levels and therefore costs, so TOCs have lacked any real impetus to bring it in. AIUI it’s something the unions have always been open to, hence certain TOCs have introduced it as a quid pro quo for something else as part of wider negotiations of Ts and Cs, where it suited them to do so.

What appears to be be being asked for now (at least for those TOCs who don’t have Sundays within the week) is “committed Sundays”, so still reliance on overtime and a variation on a theme of what happens now.

Of course all the discussion around Sundays rather masks the wider issue that there aren’t sufficient staff to run the service Monday to Saturday without heavy reliance on overtime. Therefore a clear potential issues with the current strategy is that, if people are compelled to work Sundays as overtime, they’re less likely to make themselves available on other days. So Sundays might improve but overall reliability worsen.

The switch to actively encouraging travel has happened very rapidly, which is why we're now seeing TOCs look at things like this.

Not sure it’s true to say TOCs are actively looking at this (or anything else) under the current arrangements? They’re prohibited by the NRCs from negotiating on a local level and, in any case, are currently quite happy being paid to run little to no service, as they’re not taking revenue risk.

 

[DanNCL]

Sorry if I've missed the answer to this as I've only had time to have a quick scan through the thread - has an offer actually been made to ASLEF or was the RDG announcment to the media last week just a PR stunt?

 

[Frankfurt]

Deleted, I can't articulate when I'm angry.

 

[Anvil1984]

Sorry if I've missed the answer to this as I've only had time to have a quick scan through the thread - has an offer actually been made to ASLEF or was the RDG announcment to the media last week just a PR stunt?

There’s been a document doing the rounds today “Pay & Workplace Reform Principle Proposal” which is rather grim for the drivers amongst us

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course all the discussion around Sundays rather masks the wider issue that there aren’t sufficient staff to run the service Monday to Saturday without heavy reliance on overtime. Therefore a clear potential issues with the current strategy is that, if people are compelled to work Sundays as overtime, they’re less likely to make themselves available on other days. So Sundays might improve but overall reliability worsen

Logic would be to tie that in with a "fewer, longer trains" approach as is likely to fit with the May 2023 cuts idea, then you have a solid establishment that can actually run the full service reliably (including Sundays), and if you want to up the service recruit before you do.

 

[43066]

Logic would be to tie that in with a "fewer, longer trains" approach as is likely to fit with the May 2023 cuts idea, then you have a solid establishment that can actually run the full service reliably (including Sundays), and if you want to up the service recruit before you do.

Where I am there aren’t always enough drivers to run the service on RMT strike days without overtime, currently, so I wouldn’t bank on that. I also wouldn’t bank on logic being applied.

There’s been a document doing the rounds today “Pay & Workplace Reform Principle Proposal” which is rather grim for the drivers amongst us

Has there? Is this something in addition to the RDG document upthread?

 

[DanNCL]

There’s been a document doing the rounds today “Pay & Workplace Reform Principle Proposal” which is rather grim for the drivers amongst us

Thanks. Sounds as I suspected then, that the Government are continuing to drag this out and don't have any intention of making a reasonable offer any time soon. And to announce it to the media on Friday, but not put it to those who the offer is actually for for another four days, is completely unacceptable. Sadly not a surprise with the Tories.

 

[XIX7007177]

There’s been a document doing the rounds today “Pay & Workplace Reform Principle Proposal” which is rather grim for the drivers amongst us

Any different to what RDG released Friday?

 

[12LDA28C]

Take out the attached conditions and it’d sail through……but some of the conditions such as Sundays in the working week and the ability to move drivers to different depots all over the network to fill gaps in the roster will kibosh and deal

I don't think there's any intention to 'move drivers to different depots all over the network', more a desire to allow drivers at Depot A at a TOC to be able to cover a vacant turn at Depot B at the same TOC, which will of course be dependent on the driver having sufficient route and traction knowledge and adhering to the various Ts & Cs applicable, which seems fair enough. If a driver is spare at Depot A and can cover a job at Depot B within his hours with a break in the right place and so on then clearly that doesn't seem unreasonable and indeed it already happens at various TOCs.

 

[bramling]

They most certainly do not. What they want is Sunday (and Saturday) to be "part of normal life" for everybody else, not themselves, so their weekend is as convenient as possible for them. There's a vast difference. Sundays as a "normal" day is purely for other people.

Nail absolutely hit on the head there. This is *exactly* the problem, and it’s virtually impossible to reconcile.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

In fairness there’s a few tocs with multiple different contracts within. However that’s been caused by TUPE rather than agreeing something new.

I don’t think we’ll see anywhere that hasn’t got Sunday in the working becoming part of the working week. The TOC’s can’t keep up with recruitment at the minute, increasing the establishment figures would make it even harder.

Having people on different contracts really is undesirable. As well as making resourcing more complex (worth remembering railway resourcing is already very complex as it is), it really does breed toxicity in the workplace. You may well say that it shouldn’t do or that new people who sign a contract don’t have any basis to feel aggrieved, but reality is human nature means they do, and over time this causes issues.

It probably doesn’t help that, compared to commerce, people often stay in the same post for very long periods of service on the railway, so you’re going to see more of this issue than in some other sectors. But again this is just basic reality.

 

[12LDA28C]

Why’s that? It’s overtime. If you don’t come in, you don’t get paid. But that’s the extent of it.

Presumably you have to work it, if it is committed overtime?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

I believe that with committed Sundays a driver would be expected to work a Sunday as rostered however if they wanted to not work and have the day off instead, they would have to arrange cover and if they were unsuccessful in that endeavour then they would have to work their booked Sunday, as rostered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

 

[Horizon22]

But demand for rail travel is far lower on Sundays, that’s the simple fact of the matter. If you bring Sundays inside the working week you then use staff who can’t be used during the rest of the week, hence the historical reliance on overtime.

Hmm this is a bit of the “chicken and egg” scenario - is it reduced because there’s normally such a late start up and considerable engineering works and people have gotten used to and planned accordingly? Is the demand artificially suppressed? Or have we done more engineering works and a reduced timetable on Sundays because of traditionally lower Sunday demand?

I would take an educated guess that the current situation is because it is the latter scenario but demand for weekends is well above 100% now so perhaps it is out of kilter with the post-Covid travel demand.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I don't think there's any intention to 'move drivers to different depots all over the network', more a desire to allow drivers at Depot A at a TOC to be able to cover a vacant turn at Depot B at the same TOC, which will of course be dependent on the driver having sufficient route and traction knowledge and adhering to the various Ts & Cs applicable, which seems fair enough. If a driver is spare at Depot A and can cover a job at Depot B within his hours with a break in the right place and so on then clearly that doesn't seem unreasonable and indeed it already happens at various TOCs.

Unless you're a Thameslink Bedford driver and get asked to cover at Brighton

 

[bramling]

For an industry that has long worked 7 days a week, for almost every day of the year it seems odd that it still seems surprised people might want to travel on a Sunday, or perhaps even Boxing Day. Just the same way people might want to go out for a trip, go shopping, go to a pub etc, etc.

Where issues have arisen is that demand has increased on these sorts of days. Remembering back to my local rail service even as recently as the 90s, the railway was generally peace and tranquility on a Sunday. There’s still a slight taste of this early on Sunday mornings. Same on Boxing Day.

So you’d generally see a heavily slimmed down timetable, albeit with longer formations in places. This is now problematic on two levels - firstly with formations already being longer there hasn’t been the scope to provide extra capacity through lengthening existing services. Likewise with a pretty skeleton Sunday service not many crews were required, so it was easier to resource, and with there being a big disparity between Mon-Sat and Sunday service you could resource Sundays without people having to work them too often, and this was generally pushed further by making the Sunday duties as efficient (ie intense) as possible.

Fast forward a couple of decades and suddenly Sundays (and Saturdays) have got busier, and it’s easy to see why there’s now issues. Unfortunately people seem to expect an intense Sunday service, but fail to appreciate that the resources for this have never really been there, and surprisingly enough these extra resources come with a quite significant price tag, which people probably don’t want to pay (or as seems to be the modern trendy fashion, they expect *someone else* to bear the cost).

As a taxpayer, am I happy to pay extra tax to subsidise enhanced Sunday rail services for others? No. As a weekday rail user, am I happy to pay higher fares to subsidise enhanced Sunday rail services for others? No. I suspect many people would give the same two answers on this.

 

[nlogax]

What are the practicalities of Sunday working in other similar countries.. France or Germany for instance? Is there something specific about the British situation which makes this 'virtually impossible to reconcile'?

 

[Horizon22]

I believe that with committed Sundays a driver would be expected to work a Sunday as rostered however if they wanted to not work and have the day off instead, they would have to arrange cover and if they were unsuccessful in that endeavour then they would have to work their booked Sunday, as rostered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

Yes effectively that. But people used to jump over each other for Sundays where I saw committed Sundays and people wanted to swap so was never an issue. Primarily because of the overtime rate.