Train drivers offered pay rise in bid to end strikes

[mikeb42]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2023 ==
...such fuss about what a train driver earns. i am sure it is a fair wage but not anything to write home about, Probably in line with a main scale teacher or something similar...

Way out. Qualified teacher salaries are roughly in the £26k-£41k range.

If you'd said teachers in leadership positions or headteachers, maybe. When including overtime, clearly so (given that teachers generally get paid £zilch for overtime like most comparable professionals).

Exclusive of overtime, quoted median train driver salaries are already above the 90th percentile of the UK income distribution - £60k pa. See HMRC UK Income Percentiles to Aug 22.

Inclusive of overtime some are breaching the 95th percentile - £82k pa - and beyond. On these very pages some have alluded to pulling £100k pa. That's NHS consultant territory.

This is why Joe Public has difficulty understanding. It seems intuitively out of kilter. Most won't think beyond that to grasp the multiple complex reasons for it often put forward on this forum.

 

[AntoniC]

I have been a Civil Servant for 34 years now, once I was well paid but following 12 years of austerity and minimal pay rises per year ( 1 % or 2%) on the 1st April I have to be given a £330 per year payrise to £22854 p.a or I will be paid below national minimum wage - I sure feel appreciated !.
I wont leave as I don`t have long to go till I can retire ( I can still retire with a Civil Service Pension at 60) and I can live within my means.

 

[NI 271]

I think the public want Sunday to be part of normal life

They most certainly do not. What they want is Sunday (and Saturday) to be "part of normal life" for everybody else, not themselves, so their weekend is as convenient as possible for them. There's a vast difference. Sundays as a "normal" day is purely for other people.

 

[dk1]

They most certainly do not. What they want is Sunday (and Saturday) to be "part of normal life" for everybody else, not themselves, so their weekend is as convenient as possible for them. There's a vast difference. Sundays as a "normal" day is purely for other people.

This is so true.

 

[Facing Back]

They most certainly do not. What they want is Sunday (and Saturday) to be "part of normal life" for everybody else, not themselves, so their weekend is as convenient as possible for them. There's a vast difference. Sundays as a "normal" day is purely for other people.

I’ll accept the clarification however it also rather makes my point. I think increasingly, seven day services are just that. Not five or six day services plus whatever is cobbled together on a Sunday.

 

[irish_rail]

They most certainly do not. What they want is Sunday (and Saturday) to be "part of normal life" for everybody else, not themselves, so their weekend is as convenient as possible for them. There's a vast difference. Sundays as a "normal" day is purely for other people.

Exactly, same with boxing day.

 

[Bantamzen]

Exactly, same with boxing day.

For an industry that has long worked 7 days a week, for almost every day of the year it seems odd that it still seems surprised people might want to travel on a Sunday, or perhaps even Boxing Day. Just the same way people might want to go out for a trip, go shopping, go to a pub etc, etc.

 

[baz962]

They most certainly do not. What they want is Sunday (and Saturday) to be "part of normal life" for everybody else, not themselves, so their weekend is as convenient as possible for them. There's a vast difference. Sundays as a "normal" day is purely for other people.

And I would add in Saturday. My last doctor used to publish the average salary on their website -£104,000. And they didn't work Saturday or Sunday or after 18.30 . A 24/7 society if you are a train driver, just not if you get sick.

 

[38Cto15E]

Would it not work if Drivers had to work say 13 Sundays per year and if they did then the Saturday would not be part of that working week, unless they wanted it to be.
However, I still do not agree with these foreign companies taking away their ill gotten gains.

 

[66701GBRF]

Would it not work if Drivers had to work say 13 Sundays per year and if they did then the Saturday would not be part of that working week, unless they wanted it to be.
However, I still do not agree with these foreign companies taking away their ill gotten gains.

Surely that just moves the "problem" to Saturdays?

 

[NI 271]

I’ll accept the clarification however it also rather makes my point. I think increasingly, seven day services are just that. Not five or six day services plus whatever is cobbled together on a Sunday.

I’ve worked pretty much my entire life where Sunday is a part of the normal working week. I don’t have any problem with it, my problem is with people who won’t work weekends themselves demanding that those who do should work as if it is a weekday, and provide similar levels of service (be that transport, retail, health, hospitality, whatever) as they do the rest of the week. Nope. Open the offices on Saturdays and Sundays and they can start griping about everybody else. Until then, they can whistle, imo.

 

[dctraindriver]

It's interesting as since joining the industry I'm regularly asked when waiting to pickup a set or head home what Im earning, especially by passangers in first.

They nearly all seem to think that 45-50k is too much so there face when you tell them what the TOC pays is usually a picture.

I’ve never been asked by a customer what I earn, and I’ve not yet encountered any remarks about them paying my wages.

 

[43066]

Way out. Qualified teacher salaries are roughly in the £26k-£41k range.

If you'd said teachers in leadership positions or headteachers, maybe. When including overtime, clearly so (given that teachers generally get paid £zilch for overtime like most comparable professionals).

Exclusive of overtime, quoted median train driver salaries are already above the 90th percentile of the UK income distribution - £60k pa. See HMRC UK Income Percentiles to Aug 22.

Inclusive of overtime some are breaching the 95th percentile - £82k pa - and beyond. On these very pages some have alluded to pulling £100k pa. That's NHS consultant territory.

This is why Joe Public has difficulty understanding. It seems intuitively out of kilter. Most won't think beyond that to grasp the multiple complex reasons for it often put forward on this forum.

To be fair Joe Public is fairly ignorant about most things. I doubt they think head teachers earn £100k plus, for example and might well regard that as “intuitively out of kilter”.

It’s also true to say that many more senior nurses earn in the region of £50-£60k+. But the lower £33k average is always trotted out to beat train drivers with.

It also isn’t really relevant to consider overtime as many other workers can boost their earnings through this. NHS staff certainly can, they can also do shifts through agencies for multiples of their normal hourly rate, with the agency creaming off a fee (the NHS spends circa. £3bn just on agency fees alone according to recent analysis, which rather puts the railway’s finances into perspective!).

They most certainly do not. What they want is Sunday (and Saturday) to be "part of normal life" for everybody else, not themselves, so their weekend is as convenient as possible for them. There's a vast difference. Sundays as a "normal" day is purely for other people.

Agreed. Huge sectors of the economy don’t operate on Sundays (including the failing, crisis-ridden NHS!), yet somehow the railway is singled out.

For an industry that has long worked 7 days a week, for almost every day of the year it seems odd that it still seems surprised people might want to travel on a Sunday, or perhaps even Boxing Day. Just the same way people might want to go out for a trip, go shopping, go to a pub etc, etc.

The industry isn’t surprised. Sunday is already inside the working week on many parts of the railway, and favoured by the unions, but the TOCs and now the government don’t seem to be willing to pay for that everywhere, so it will continue to rely on overtime.

 

[Annetts key]

There was never a problem covering Sunday work back in the days of BR, as our rates of pay were crap compared to now, and Sunday's were paid at Time and three quarters. Drivers and Guards would sell their own Grandmother for a Sunday! Especially if you could get 12 hours out of it, same for Rest Days which would be paid at Time and a half under BR, now it's mostly just time worked for the majority of TOCs that have a Rest Day work agreement.
Now we earn a decent rate of pay, so there's no need to work Sunday to make up for the crap rate of pay, unless of course you have to work a Sunday as your Company has Sunday as part of the working week.

Thank you.

So the situation is, in many parts of the railway, that the company have increased the basic rate of pay and reduced overtime rates. In the area that I know about, the T&C treat Sundays as a normal working day. Hence staff can be rostered to work on any day Monday to Sunday.

This has not solved the problem of staff shortages. But now the company can be short of staff on any day. Indeed, just today I’m told one manger has just sent out at least two emails this morning asking for volunteers to come in and work overtime.

 

[geoffk]

Harmonisation of pay would take years. Drivers at LNER for instance would never accept a pay cut and drivers at SE etc aren't likely to get a £15k pay rise. I'm sure ASLEF will understand that. I cannot see any easy solution to the current mess!

Am I right in thinking that under BR rates of pay and conditions for each grade were similar thoughout the network (plus London weighting I expect)? If so fragmentation has allowed them to diverge and we now have wide differences between TOCs and between passenger and freight. (I'm writing as someone outside the industry).

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Presumably you have to work it, if it is committed overtime?

Why’s that? It’s overtime. If you don’t come in, you don’t get paid. But that’s the extent of it.

 

[dctraindriver]

I have been a Civil Servant for 34 years now, once I was well paid but following 12 years of austerity and minimal pay rises per year ( 1 % or 2%) on the 1st April I have to be given a £330 per year payrise to £22854 p.a or I will be paid below national minimum wage - I sure feel appreciated !.
I wont leave as I don`t have long to go till I can retire ( I can still retire with a Civil Service Pension at 60) and I can live within my means.

I think it’s shocking the way public sector workers have been treated over the past 12 years. Shame on them for treating so many people like this.

 

[Annetts key]

They most certainly do not. What they want is Sunday (and Saturday) to be "part of normal life" for everybody else, not themselves, so their weekend is as convenient as possible for them. There's a vast difference. Sundays as a "normal" day is purely for other people.

Exactly. They want their weekend off so that they can enjoy themselves. Meanwhile they want the service providers to operate so that they can enjoy themselves.

Just like the politicians generally speaking like to have the weekend off.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2023 ==

I’ll accept the clarification however it also rather makes my point. I think increasingly, seven day services are just that. Not five or six day services plus whatever is cobbled together on a Sunday.

So goes back to levelling it out for everyone, by the government changing the law and making Sunday a normal working day for everyone. If the majority want shops, pubs, restaurants, railways, busses, taxis, ships, airlines etc to be open and operating on Sundays, why not all industries, businesses and other employers?

 

[43096]

I’ve worked pretty much my entire life where Sunday is a part of the normal working week. I don’t have any problem with it, my problem is with people who won’t work weekends themselves demanding that those who do should work as if it is a weekday, and provide similar levels of service (be that transport, retail, health, hospitality, whatever) as they do the rest of the week. Nope. Open the offices on Saturdays and Sundays and they can start griping about everybody else. Until then, they can whistle, imo.

So are you expecting people in offices to work 6 or 7 day weeks, then?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Agreed. Huge sectors of the economy don’t operate on Sundays (including the failing, crisis-ridden NHS!), yet somehow the railway is singled out.

The "problem" is that people want to travel on Sundays (and Saturdays and bank holidays). Especially if they work Monday to Friday

The days of everyone staying at home on Sundays and going to church are long gone

And it may surprise you... the failing, crisis-ridden NHS does operate on Sundays.... (Except senior managers and consultants)

 

[Bletchleyite]

So are you expecting people in offices to work 6 or 7 day weeks, then?

Do most people think that?

My view is that Sunday should be part of the working week for the railway, but that nobody should be working rest days at all - I'm not even convinced it should be allowed for drivers/guards etc to do so in such a safety-critical job - overtime should be for exceptions, i.e. the service has gone to hell in a handcart and so we need an extra half hour out of a driver to stop them leaving a train in the middle of nowhere. However I can accept the argument that this should be done optionally and by making Sundays near-universal for new staff, if any existing staff really don't want them.

In the end there is a choice of careers. If you want to work 9am to 5:30pm Monday to Friday you should choose an office career. If you want to work on the railway, shifts and weekends are part of the deal.

That I don't want to work weekends is irrelevant - I chose an office based career, where most work being Monday to Friday is the norm. Part of the reason I did is that.

 

[jh64]

So are you expecting people in offices to work 6 or 7 day weeks, then?

A bunch of places do, I work in media/marketing stuff and most people in my company do one weekend every four weeks with a variety of rest days. I prefer seven straight days with the following Monday and Tuesday off for a short three day week, others have Friday and Monday around the weekend off.

 

[43066]

So are you expecting people in offices to work 6 or 7 day weeks, then?

Why not? I regularly work six days on the trot covering both Saturday and Sunday for no extra pay, and work two out of three Saturdays.

Perhaps we should abandon the concept of weekdays and weekends and every day should be a working day or a rest day. That’s what railway staff are expected to do.

The "problem" is that people want to travel on Sundays (and Saturdays). Especially if they work M-F.

The days of everyone staying at home on Sundays and going to church are long gone

But demand for rail travel is far lower on Sundays, that’s the simple fact of the matter. If you bring Sundays inside the working week you then use staff who can’t be used during the rest of the week, hence the historical reliance on overtime.

And it may surprise you... the failing, crisis-ridden NHS does operate on Sundays.... (Except senior managers and consultants)

It does surprise me because I know it isn’t true for huge parts of it. I can’t get a GP appointment and many specialist functions within hospitals don’t operate on Sundays. Many shops open limited hours and most professional services and tradesman are unavailable, or only attend for emergencies.

 

[baz962]

Do most people think that?

My view is that Sunday should be part of the working week for the railway, but that nobody should be working rest days at all - I'm not even convinced it should be allowed for drivers/guards etc to do so in such a safety-critical job - overtime should be for exceptions, i.e. the service has gone to hell in a handcart and so we need an extra half hour out of a driver to stop them leaving a train in the middle of nowhere. However I can accept the argument that this should be done optionally and by making Sundays near-universal for new staff, if any existing staff really don't want them.

In the end there is a choice of careers. If you want to work 9am to 5:30pm Monday to Friday you should choose an office career. If you want to work on the railway, shifts and weekends are part of the deal.

That I don't want to work weekends is irrelevant - I chose an office based career, where most work being Monday to Friday is the norm. Part of the reason I did is that.

The only trouble with that is staff at TOCs that don't have Sunday inside did indeed choose not to work Sundays, same as you. So I would argue that reasonably the only way would be for new starters. That though would take a while for all existing staff to move on or retire.

 

[43066]

In the end there is a choice of careers. If you want to work 9am to 5:30pm Monday to Friday you should choose an office career. If you want to work on the railway, shifts and weekends are part of the deal.

If you’re a railway worker who has signed a contract saying Sundays are outside of the working week it expressly isn’t part of the deal.

 

[dctraindriver]

If you’re a railway worker who has signed a contract saying Sundays are outside of the working week it expressly isn’t part of the deal.

In some respects I’m grateful to be working at a TOC which has Sundays inside. What a nightmare.

 

[12LDA28C]

If i was the govt i would be delighted that staff were prepared to be this reasonable given the headline inflation numbers. Certainly shows the "restraint" that leading govt ministers ask for.

Perhaps train drivers aren't the 'greedy, selfish' people that they are painted in the press and on social media after all...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It does surprise me because I know it isn’t true for huge parts of it. I can’t get a GP appointment and many specialist functions within hospitals don’t operate on Sundays. Many shops open limited hours and most professional services and tradesman are unavailable, or only attend for emergencies.

Point taken and I agree, some parts of the NHS don't work on Sundays (or Saturdays) unless it is overtime or critical stuff like A&E and ITU. A few departments are now starting to work weekends, but this is staffed as overtime or bank.

And like the railway, lots of NHS staff don't want to work weekends....

 

[Bantamzen]

Why not? I regularly work six days on the trot covering both Saturday and Sunday for no extra pay, and work two out of three Saturdays.

Perhaps we should abandon the concept of weekdays and weekends and every day should be a working day or a rest day. That’s what railway staff are expected to do.

Saturdays are increasingly becoming a normal office work day, it certainly is in my Department (although technically I'm on call 24/7 these days, if something blow up I gotta jump to attention). Sundays are probably not that far behind.

But demand for rail travel is far lower on Sundays, that’s the simple fact of the matter. If you bring Sundays inside the working week you then use staff who can’t be used during the rest of the week, hence the historical reliance on overtime.

It is but is there not a chance that some demand is being suppressed by lower capacity, engineering works etc?

It does surprise me because I know it isn’t true for huge parts of it. I can’t get a GP appointment and many specialist functions within hospitals don’t operate on Sundays. Many shops open limited hours and most professional services and tradesman are unavailable, or only attend for emergencies.

Again, probably only a matter of time. The shops that open for limited hours only do so because of their size and a legal mandate. Remove that and I bet you more would open for longer, and more people would go to them.

 

[66701GBRF]

If you want to work 9am to 5:30pm Monday to Friday you should choose an office career. If you want to work on the railway, shifts and weekends are part of the deal.

No one has said they only want to work 9-5 M-F and Sundays are only part of the deal if that is what is in your contract.