Train Dispatch rules

[plymothian]

We use 6 a lot. Examples are St James Park on the Down Waterloo. At Dawlish Warren if we give 6 and draw up to the signals (both well clear of the platforms) then we've departed the station right time and the delay is put down as signals. If we wait at the platform for the signal to clear we get the delay. Same at Worle in both directions.
Giving 6 came about our way as a driver was given 2 at SJP at had a SPAD. It was felt that giving 6 would draw attention to the red signal.
If 6 was given as part of a shunt move then the movement would have already been agreed with all concerned.

I much prefer to wait time at a platform then a few yards beyond it. If something goes wrong such as somebody being taken ill on the train or a problem further down the line resulting in a significant delay, you are much better off being at a station platform with easy egress than locked on a train remote from one. If the driver subsequently has a SPAD, that is not the fault of the guard. A train moving towards a red signal has the same risk irrespective of whether '2 bells' or '6 bells' has been given. Worrying about any delay minutes being attributed incorrectly is a common and often repeated myth. If the signal is at red you are not going anywhere whether you are stopped at the signal or in the platform before it. Somewhere like Worle where even the longest trains are easily clear of the platforms the driver should not be receiving '6 bells' on the buzzer. There is no consistency from guards when applying this train of thought. The signals are some distance away from the platforms. Then take stations like Bath Spa and Keynsham in the up direction. The next stop signals after both of the respective up platforms are significantly closer than those beyond the platforms at Worle, but because they are not visible during despatch, no guard ever gives '6 bells' at either of these locations. Surely the risk of the driver having a SPAD is greater at a platform where the next signal isn't visible compared to one where it is?

In agreement. Always better to wait at a platform than outside as it's easier to control passengers at a station (especially when it's so hot), and if things do go belly up there's no need to think about wrong move procedures. Stuff delay attribution (and I do truely believe the 'you get the attribution' is a load of bunkum).

St James Park down, Dawlish Warren, Credition up - never give 6 - always wait.
Worle both directions aren't starting signals anyway. Worle Junction is approach control too, so you will very very rarely get a proceed aspect to go along the main line whilst stood at Worle.

 

[skyhigh]

That should all have been squashed by your ops standards department. Train dispatch is clearly defined in the rulebook. SS1 says the ready to start signal should be given as per correct bell buzzer codes, the RA indicator if provided or a green hand signal, either a flag or lamp. TW1 defines the "ready to start" bell code as 2. Dispatching a train from a platform, as opposed to repositioning it, using anything other than 2 bells is a breach of the rules, whether it's one that has snuck in unofficially or not.

I completely agree- I've never heard of anyone doing this at my place in the circumstances described. Before reading this thread the idea hadn't even entered my head!

 

[robbeech]

That should all have been squashed by your ops standards department. Train dispatch is clearly defined in the rulebook. SS1 says the ready to start signal should be given as per correct bell buzzer codes, the RA indicator if provided or a green hand signal, either a flag or lamp. TW1 defines the "ready to start" bell code as 2. Dispatching a train from a platform, as opposed to repositioning it, using anything other than 2 bells is a breach of the rules, whether it's one that has snuck in unofficially or not.

This level of inconsistency is somewhat of a concern to say the least. In my line of work the safety critical tasks have rules. They’re there for a reason. If something different to normal which is not generally covered or not done frequently is required then a discussion is had, a plan formed and a confirmation made that everyone involved understands what we are doing. It may be that a further risk assessment is required and this can take time to sort. If someone makes up a rule to save a bit of time then they will find they’ve got more spare time when they’re sent home.

 

[ComUtoR]

This level of inconsistency is somewhat of a concern to say the least. In my line of work the safety critical tasks have rules. They’re there for a reason. If something different to normal which is not generally covered or not done frequently is required then a discussion is had, a plan formed and a confirmation made that everyone involved understands what we are doing.

But that is exactly what is happening. The rulebook creates the specific set of rules that we shold all adhere to. However, it just cannot allow for every single unique situation. It used to be a huge and complicated document with rules that just couldnt be followed because locally it couldnt be followed. So what happened and has been slowly evolving is that 'Local instructions" will apply. The 'Local Instructions' are allowances for each locations uniqueness. It also allows for various traction constraints too.

This is actually a good way to work. Take a 10 Car out of somewhere like Cannon Street and you WILL be in the platform if you are stopped on the next gantry. This presents a risk to passengers and additional risk for dispatch. The 'Rulebook' in this case doesn't work so a 'Local Instruction' would be better. Other examples, like the one posted above, come about because of the lack of a local instruction. So people will start to make decisions for themselves, not forgetting that the over arching rule is that "if you believe something is not safe, dont do it."

 

[craigybagel]

In agreement. Always better to wait at a platform than outside as it's easier to control passengers at a station (especially when it's so hot), and if things do go belly up there's no need to think about wrong move procedures. Stuff delay attribution (and I do truely believe the 'you get the attribution' is a load of bunkum).

St James Park down, Dawlish Warren, Credition up - never give 6 - always wait.
Worle both directions aren't starting signals anyway. Worle Junction is approach control too, so you will very very rarely get a proceed aspect to go along the main line whilst stood at Worle.

But that is exactly what is happening. The rulebook creates the specific set of rules that we shold all adhere to. However, it just cannot allow for every single unique situation. It used to be a huge and complicated document with rules that just couldnt be followed because locally it couldnt be followed. So what happened and has been slowly evolving is that 'Local instructions" will apply. The 'Local Instructions' are allowances for each locations uniqueness. It also allows for various traction constraints too.

This is actually a good way to work. Take a 10 Car out of somewhere like Cannon Street and you WILL be in the platform if you are stopped on the next gantry. This presents a risk to passengers and additional risk for dispatch. The 'Rulebook' in this case doesn't work so a 'Local Instruction' would be better. Other examples, like the one posted above, come about because of the lack of a local instruction. So people will start to make decisions for themselves, not forgetting that the over arching rule is that "if you believe something is not safe, dont do it."

There are some locations where the signal isn't going to clear, you could be waiting all day. I agree it would be great if a consistent policy was adhered to but in the absence of one something needs to take place. Personally though I'm happy enough as long as a clear understanding has been reached - as a guard as per my TOCs policies I never gave 6 without discussing it with the driver first. As a driver I'm happy to accept 2 or 6 at those problematic non starting signals at danger, but again I always make a point of discussing it in advance to ensure a clear understanding.

 

[robbeech]

I see little wrong with ‘local instructions’ but there’s talk of some drivers / guards just doing things they’ve become accustomed too, and others refusing. And others doing something else entirely. It’s the inconsistency that I find baffling.

 

[Llama]

Same applies at Manchester Piccadilly. Trains are always booked in platforms 13 and 14 but occasionally when there are delays and cogestion, doors will open up on 13b/14b when a train occupies the main platform. The train is held at at the signal on platform prior to the off platform signal. This is discouraged by network rail though as it causes confusion amongst passengers. Guards seem to disregard this and open the doors if they are standing for some time at 13/14b.
Therefore the same process is applied here as it is at Leeds, following the train out and watching the PTI very carefully.

Piccadilly is actually the opposite of Leeds - at Piccadilly special authority has to be obtained (see local instruction) before station duties can be done on the 'first' part of one of the through platforms. At Leeds it's done as a matter of course.

As others have said, at Piccadilly a train can't be dispatched from the 'first' part of the platform until both the signal ahead of the train and the signal at the end of the platform are cleared - you can't get dispatched from Piccadilly 13b/14b on a single yellow. At Leeds you can and occasionally do. This situation has been raised and the mitigation at Leeds is that the dispatcher has to walk with the train and remain with it until the platform end signal has cleared and the train has proceeded clear of the platform.

 

[Efini92]

Piccadilly is actually the opposite of Leeds - at Piccadilly special authority has to be obtained (see local instruction) before station duties can be done on the 'first' part of one of the through platforms. At Leeds it's done as a matter of course.

As others have said, at Piccadilly a train can't be dispatched from the 'first' part of the platform until both the signal ahead of the train and the signal at the end of the platform are cleared - you can't get dispatched from Piccadilly 13b/14b on a single yellow. At Leeds you can and occasionally do. This situation has been raised and the mitigation at Leeds is that the dispatcher has to walk with the train and remain with it until the platform end signal has cleared and the train has proceeded clear of the platform.

When I signed Leeds we were told not to be dispatched on a single yellow from the mid platform signals (unless it was onto the through road). When did this change?

 

[Efini92]

But that is exactly what is happening. The rulebook creates the specific set of rules that we shold all adhere to. However, it just cannot allow for every single unique situation. It used to be a huge and complicated document with rules that just couldnt be followed because locally it couldnt be followed. So what happened and has been slowly evolving is that 'Local instructions" will apply. The 'Local Instructions' are allowances for each locations uniqueness. It also allows for various traction constraints too.

This is actually a good way to work. Take a 10 Car out of somewhere like Cannon Street and you WILL be in the platform if you are stopped on the next gantry. This presents a risk to passengers and additional risk for dispatch. The 'Rulebook' in this case doesn't work so a 'Local Instruction' would be better. Other examples, like the one posted above, come about because of the lack of a local instruction. So people will start to make decisions for themselves, not forgetting that the over arching rule is that "if you believe something is not safe, dont do it."

Whilst I see your point, it’s not up to train crew to make up their own methods of work. The rule book says the ready to start signal is 2 on the buzzer not 6.

We use 6 a lot. Examples are St James Park on the Down Waterloo. At Dawlish Warren if we give 6 and draw up to the signals (both well clear of the platforms) then we've departed the station right time and the delay is put down as signals. If we wait at the platform for the signal to clear we get the delay. Same at Worle in both directions.
Giving 6 came about our way as a driver was given 2 at SJP at had a SPAD. It was felt that giving 6 would draw attention to the red signal.
If 6 was given as part of a shunt move then the movement would have already been agreed with all concerned.

The DRA should’ve drawn the drivers attention to the red signal. I’m surprised the company have issued instructions to give 6 as it contradicts what the rule book says.

 

[ComUtoR]

Whilst I see your point, it’s not up to train crew to make up their own methods of work. The rule book says the ready to start signal is 2 on the buzzer not 6.

Err............

I've made no mention of Guard dispatch. I'm talking about passing the starter and then still being caught in the platform due to the distance between the next signal and the platform. As the standards say that a starter is considered to be where a train remains in the platform when stopped at the signal. This kinda makes the standards unworkable. Ergo, a local instruction is needed or at least preferable.

Drivers, at least at my TOC, notoriously do not move towards midpoint signals at Red. We tend to hold back till it steps up to two yellows. Whilst there are no specific rules to cover that. Some will not care and pull forward the moment the signal clears. Some will hold till it steps up. Who is right ?

The DRA should’ve drawn the drivers attention to the red signal.

One of the issues with the DRA is its overuse. Consider this. How many SASSPADS have occured after the Driver resets the DRA ?

 

[Efini92]

Err............

I've made no mention of Guard dispatch. I'm talking about passing the starter and then still being caught in the platform due to the distance between the next signal and the platform. As the standards say that a starter is considered to be where a train remains in the platform when stopped at the signal. This kinda makes the standards unworkable. Ergo, a local instruction is needed or at least preferable.

Drivers, at least at my TOC, notoriously do not move towards midpoint signals at Red. We tend to hold back till it steps up to two yellows. Whilst there are no specific rules to cover that. Some will not care and pull forward the moment the signal clears. Some will hold till it steps up. Who is right ?



One of the issues with the DRA is its overuse. Consider this. How many SASSPADS have occured after the Driver resets the DRA ?

Apologies about that, I linked it to the wrong comment.
I completely agree with the amount of drivers that over use the DRA but if it’s used properly it’s a vital tool.

 

[PupCuff]

This level of inconsistency is somewhat of a concern to say the least. In my line of work the safety critical tasks have rules. They’re there for a reason. If something different to normal which is not generally covered or not done frequently is required then a discussion is had, a plan formed and a confirmation made that everyone involved understands what we are doing. It may be that a further risk assessment is required and this can take time to sort. If someone makes up a rule to save a bit of time then they will find they’ve got more spare time when they’re sent home.

I'm surprised their management allow it. Our place certainly wouldn't. That said, occasionally crews fall into a custom and practice of breaking the rules at a location where they're not likely to be caught and it'll only come to management attention when something goes wrong (not necessarily with that method of working even, OTMR review of another incident, customer feedback etc). On a dispersed network (using the example of GWR, London to Penzance and a heck of a lot in between) management are so thinly spread, what's the chance of one being there to spot it at any given time? Said crews just have to hope they don't have someone on board who does notice it, and is prepared to kick off about it. Of course, I'd prefer it if everyone just followed the rules, which I'm pleased to know that majority do indeed do.

 

[ComUtoR]

I completely agree with the amount of drivers that over use the DRA but if it’s used properly it’s a vital tool.

Some TOCs say not to set the DRA when leaving the cab because it forces the next Driver to set the DRA when they get in the cab. The DRA explicitly says it should be set when leaving the cab. Again, which is the safer option ? is the TOC right or wrong to overrule the rulebook ? TBH I'm unsure if TOCs are allowed to set local policy that overrides the rulebook. A few years ago the rulebook changed and a lot of rules were removed with the caveat that TOC policy will not apply. Even the RSSB admit that the rulebook cannot account for all circumstances.

One DRA rule that I would love to see changed is the set DRA after a single yellow into a platform with no starter. PERSONALLY I would like to see that with an additional clause that says "if you cannot see the signal" Overuse of the DRA needs to be reduced and to do that they need to change the DRA rules or allow for "local instructions" Doing this at Elstree and Borehamwood make some sense but doing this at Ladywell is beyond stupid.

The rulebook has been evolving for many years and a lot has been slowly pushed towards the TOCs. Even the Sexy Appendage has a list of local instructions. I think we all need to accept that the rulebook is evolving, the railway is changing, and super strict, ridgid adherance, isn't always the best way forward.

I don't want people to just '"make stuff up" but "custom and practice" is a real phenomenon that also needs to be addressed. I also do not want there to be "grey" areas where you are caught between rulebook and TOC policy or just caught where there is nothing to account for the situation you are in.

 

[ComUtoR]

That said, occasionally crews fall into a custom and practice

Er. Great minds or fools.. I saw the 'new messages' notification but never clicked the posts.


I don't think people are trying to circumvent the rules or do soemthing because they don't get caught. The people on the front line do this day in, day out. We see the holes in the system and we will often compensate for the greater good. Management turn a blind eye because it works or saves a ton of cash. I am reminded of a rather serious incident where the Traincrew were following "custom and practice" and using an unofficial dispatch. When it caused an incident; the brown stuff hit the spinny thing. Only then did Management come down heavy on the unoffical working.

I do have faith that most of us do things because its the safest option; rather than trying to get away with something.

 

[PupCuff]

Er. Great minds or fools.. I saw the 'new messages' notification but never clicked the posts.


I don't think people are trying to circumvent the rules or do soemthing because they don't get caught. The people on the front line do this day in, day out. We see the holes in the system and we will often compensate for the greater good. Management turn a blind eye because it works or saves a ton of cash. I am reminded of a rather serious incident where the Traincrew were following "custom and practice" and using an unofficial dispatch. When it caused an incident; the brown stuff hit the spinny thing. Only then did Management come down heavy on the unoffical working.

I do have faith that most of us do things because its the safest option; rather than trying to get away with something.

Unfortunately, the staff should know the rules, and if they wilfully choose to break them for whatever reason, then they're digging their own grave. If the Rule Book was optional we would call it the Guidance Book.

There's mechanisms for reporting holes in the system so that they can be identified and addressed, or at least there should be at all TOCs. And all will have a Worksafe policy allowing anyone to stop the job to await confirmation from management that the task is safe without fear of reprisal. Most managers may turn a blind eye to irregular working, but if one day it's not the chatty DTM who's moved into the office for the easy life, it's the new Head of Operations who does things by the book that catches you then is it really worth it for at best a mark on your safety record which could make transferring TOCs difficult, and if the shortcut is serious enough potentially the loss of your key?

There was a recent thread on here where safety culture was discussed, and this is a good example of poor safety culture. Managers who turn a blind eye to things for whatever reason they may have, are simply part of the problem - a positive attitude to following the rules needs to happen from the frontline right up to the CEO. Very very few breaches need a disciplinary like some court scene off Law and Order - I can count on one, err... finger the number of disciplinary investigations which have been triggered following safety investigations at our place in the last few years - often the best resolution will be an honest and open informal conversation about the breach of the rules and the need to ensure that it's done correctly going forwards. But they still need to be raised, as doing so normalises talking about safety in a supportive way and many staff are grateful, as perhaps they might be new and still getting to grips with the reasons behind certain rules, or there's been a recent change and they're glad that it's been pointed out now and not when they do something badly wrong later.

In the example you used if even one person had reported just one of the irregular dispatches the investigation could have stopped whatever happened from happening before it did. I certainly would beat myself up day and night for a long time if someone was killed in an accident I knew I'd watched staff cutting corners in said task and not reported it.

 

[Tomnick]

Some TOCs say not to set the DRA when leaving the cab because it forces the next Driver to set the DRA when they get in the cab. The DRA explicitly says it should be set when leaving the cab. Again, which is the safer option ? is the TOC right or wrong to overrule the rulebook ? TBH I'm unsure if TOCs are allowed to set local policy that overrides the rulebook. A few years ago the rulebook changed and a lot of rules were removed with the caveat that TOC policy will not apply. Even the RSSB admit that the rulebook cannot account for all circumstances.

My view is that company instructions can never override or contradict the Rule Book, only complement it with more restrictive clauses or additional requirements. A lot of content has come out of the Rule Book and into company instructions (which is fair enough, to an extent at least). If something's still in the Rule Book, though, it's for us to obey regardless of what company instructions tell us.

One DRA rule that I would love to see changed is the set DRA after a single yellow into a platform with no starter. PERSONALLY I would like to see that with an additional clause that says "if you cannot see the signal"

That said, I've always interpreted TW1 10.2 to apply to any platform where the next signal is visible, even if it wouldn't be considered the platform starting signal under my company's definition (it's not a definition that's given in the Rule Book so how can you be expected to apply it to a clause in the Rule Book?). I was taught that way, I've been assessed that way and to be honest I'd never even considered it any other way!

 

[ComUtoR]

My view is that company instructions can never override or contradict the Rule Book, only complement it with more restrictive clauses or additional requirements.

But Derrogations may apply. Who is to say that the TOC hasn't applied for a derrogation ?

A lot of content has come out of the Rule Book and into company instructions (which is fair enough, to an extent at least). If something's still in the Rule Book, though, it's for us to obey regardless of what company instructions tell us.

A rock and a hard place ?

That said, I've always interpreted TW1 10.2 to apply to any platform where the next signal is visible

It makes no distinction wether the signal is visible or not. If you pass the single yellow and stop in the platform. Set the DRA. It make less sense if you can see the next signal. If the next Signal is Red and you can see it, People will choose not to drop down. Or as has been highlighted, get 6 on the bell to draw forward.

Interestingly. The caveat that "you may set the DRA before your train stops" was put in because some TOCs put the DRA in on the move and others don't. My TOC are very much against that. As you say, they have set a more restrictive rule. If the rulebook allows it... Can I set it before I stop ?

 

[Tomnick]

But Derrogations may apply. Who is to say that the TOC hasn't applied for a derrogation ?

Can a TOC do that? The thought makes me very uncomfortable. I don’t mind a situation where the Rule Book tells me that I can’t do something or that I must do something, whilst company instructions tell me that I can’t do something else either or I must do something else too. I don’t like the idea of being issued one document that tells me that I can’t do something then being issued with another one that tells me that I can :-/ . Isn’t that what the phrase “unless shown in company instructions” is for?

It makes no distinction wether the signal is visible or not. If you pass the single yellow and stop in the platform. Set the DRA. It make less sense if you can see the next signal. If the next Signal is Red and you can see it, People will choose not to drop down. Or as has been highlighted, get 6 on the bell to draw forward.

Interestingly. The caveat that "you may set the DRA before your train stops" was put in because some TOCs put the DRA in on the move and others don't. My TOC are very much against that. As you say, they have set a more restrictive rule. If the rulebook allows it... Can I set it before I stop ?

It does say “where there is no signal” (or words to that effect - I can’t check at the moment). If the next signal is visible, then there is a signal even if it’s not what your company would define as a starting signal. I do see what you’re saying though, and I also agree that it makes little sense. We have one where we regularly drop in on a single yellow but the next signal is usually visible from the platform (except in summer - vegetation - or fog). It was passed at danger two or three years ago, in thick fog. I’d hate to get into the habit of mindlessly setting the DRA there.

I don’t see a problem with the Rule Book saying that you may set the DRA on the move but then your company instructions forbidding it. It’s a contradiction, perhaps, but one’s not overriding the other, just a more restrictive requirement. Personally I’d much rather set the DRA just before I get to the platform rather than risk being distracted by people doing silly things or asking silly questions and then forgetting all about it!

 

[geoffk]

An interesting discussion to inform the untrained observer. The rule book must apply equally to dispatch by a guard or by a train despatcher. I don't know what determines which stations should have train despatchers, but I guess that's a separate issue.

 

[ComUtoR]

Can a TOC do that?

I genuinely do not know. I am supposed to put my trust in my Ops safety department and have trust in my TOCs safety case to say the policy they are implementing is within all rules and regs.

I’d hate to get into the habit of mindlessly setting the DRA there.

Precicely.

We have one that is approach controlled. If you are swinging right then you get the single yellow that steps up but you still hit the platform on a single yellow. The signal is about 300yrds away and will typically show a green. Setting the DRA is just done out of habit and a tick box.

I don’t see a problem with the Rule Book saying that you may set the DRA on the move but then your company instructions forbidding it. It’s a contradiction, perhaps, but one’s not overriding the other, just a more restrictive requirement.

I agree. More restrictive should be acceptable.

 

[Tomnick]

I genuinely do not know. I am supposed to put my trust in my Ops safety department and have trust in my TOCs safety case to say the policy they are implementing is within all rules and regs.

I can’t think of anything in our company instructions that override the Rule Book. I’d certainly hope that it’s not permitted! I do have some other thoughts to follow in due course...

Precicely.

We have one that is approach controlled. If you are swinging right then you get the single yellow that steps up but you still hit the platform on a single yellow. The signal is about 300yrds away and will typically show a green. Setting the DRA is just done out of habit and a tick box.

Ours in my example protects a level crossing. If I routinely set the DRA even though I can see the signal’s off, it devalues it for the hundredth time when it’s still on for some reason. We have another one ‘protecting’ an AHB a short distance beyond a platform, and no matter how long you wait, it won’t come off until you’ve been buzzed away and trundle gently towards the signal and over a treadle - the DRA’s a valuable reminder in that case and obviously it’s always set there. As much as I trust the RSSB and our own ops standards, there has to be an element of the drivers’ professional instincts in there too, and what works best for individuals?

 

[Taunton]

At Dawlish Warren if we give 6 and draw up to the signals (both well clear of the platforms) then we've departed the station right time and the delay is put down as signals. If we wait at the platform for the signal to clear we get the delay.

Was this not behind the mass unauthorised detraining incident at Clifton Down (RAIB report), the signal in front, readily visible, was (unusually) at red because of an issue ahead, train took on an exceptional crush load travelling to the event. However precisely as described, if they stayed in the platform they would get hit for overtime, if they pulled forward to the signal NR would get hit as an operational issue, so did so, waited, waited ... and eventually had a big detraining.

 

[Mintona]

It used to drive me nuts at Petts Wood when I did four Orpington trips a day, to set the DRA after passing a single yellow into the platform even though I could see the next signal was off for the road around to Bickley. I imagine that is one of the stations being referred to above by ComUtoR. Ladywell being another, where you can see the next signal is off but still have to apply the DRA.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I spoke to my boss this morning. It is perfectly acceptable to give 6 to draw up to a red signal where the whole train will be off the platform such as Worle or St James Park as discussed. It was pointed out that the rule book no longer defines 6 as a shunting signal. The instruction dates back to Wessex days but I've long lost the paperwork. I remember though that Torre on the down did not (at the time) count as a platform starting signal and the guard could give 2 against it. None of us did though. That was soon withdrawn.

 

[PupCuff]

I spoke to my boss this morning. It is perfectly acceptable to give 6 to draw up to a red signal where the whole train will be off the platform such as Worle or St James Park as discussed. It was pointed out that the rule book no longer defines 6 as a shunting signal. The instruction dates back to Wessex days but I've long lost the paperwork. I remember though that Torre on the down did not (at the time) count as a platform starting signal and the guard could give 2 against it. None of us did though. That was soon withdrawn.

At the end of the day you've raised the issue with your manager and they've given you their permission to continue. Just so long as you're aware that such tolerance won't apply everywhere, if, for instance, you were to move to a different part of the country and change TOCs.

 

[jettofab]

At the end of the day you've raised the issue with your manager and they've given you their permission to continue. Just so long as you're aware that such tolerance won't apply everywhere, if, for instance, you were to move to a different part of the country and change TOCs.

I got told off for saying I would accept 2 at Newton Le Willows on a red and my manager is adamant I should ONLY accept 6. I don't see why but I'm in a tricky position here (and have been given both 2 and 6 in the last couple of weeks); if I get pulled for it in a download or a ride out I don't much fancy my chances of arguing my case.

 

[Right Away]

I spoke to my boss this morning. It is perfectly acceptable to give 6 to draw up to a red signal where the whole train will be off the platform such as Worle or St James Park as discussed. It was pointed out that the rule book no longer defines 6 as a shunting signal. The instruction dates back to Wessex days but I've long lost the paperwork. I remember though that Torre on the down did not (at the time) count as a platform starting signal and the guard could give 2 against it. None of us did though. That was soon withdrawn.

It certainly highlights how different operating practices are adopted by different depots. I know crew managers in the same TOC who have instructed their staff that '6 bells' must not be given at such locations. If I recall correctly, the Operational Standards department issued a reminder brief stating as much approximately a year ago.

 

[221129]

I don't much fancy my chances of arguing my case.

What does the rulebook say in that scenario? There is your answer.

 

[PupCuff]

I got told off for saying I would accept 2 at Newton Le Willows on a red and my manager is adamant I should ONLY accept 6. I don't see why but I'm in a tricky position here (and have been given both 2 and 6 in the last couple of weeks); if I get pulled for it in a download or a ride out I don't much fancy my chances of arguing my case.

I sympathise. It's been a while since I've been through Newton le Willows but I do recall a number of instances of hearing guards give six and then the driver returning with two, or vice versa, which seems to me to be the worst of both worlds as it doesn't demonstrate correct 'reading back' of what's been signalled. Although the problem in itself is rather insignificant (though could lead to a situation where a driver accidentally stops short, guard gives six bells to correct the stopping position and the driver thinks it's time to go and in doing so manages to both stop short and fail to call at the same station) it does illustrate that some rail staff are caught between a rock and a hard place in terms of compliance with rules and I would be very surprised if such instances were limited to just how many buzzes you get at certain stations.

 

[Right Away]

Although the problem in itself is rather insignificant (though could lead to a situation where a driver accidentally stops short, guard gives six bells to correct the stopping position and the driver thinks it's time to go and in doing so manages to both stop short and fail to call at the same station)

That very scenario happened at Castle Cary a couple of years ago. The up direction signals are some way off of the end of the platforms, especially so on the short (3 carriages only) platform 3 used by Weymouth services. It is commonplace there to have an up or down West of England service signalled across in front of a local service so some guards were in the habit of giving '6 bells' to draw up to the signal. However a driver of a 3 car train stopped slightly short with the rear most doors not accommodated. The guard gave '6 bells' and the driver took that as an instruction to draw up to the signal thinking that station duties were complete. For this reason, the unofficial practice of giving '6 bells' towards a red signal was quickly stamped out at the local depots.