Train Dispatch rules

[eoff]

As a long time passenger on UK railways I have joined the forum to ask some technical questions.

One thing I'm interested to know is if/when the rules concerning train dispatch have changed.

I used to get a service from Haymarket Station where it was routine that I would board the smoky DMU (I liked to sit at the front with a view forward along the track). Often the platform staff would signal for the train to depart and it would slowly proceed up to a red signal at the end of the platform and possibly have to stop. When the signal changed it would of course continue.

In recent years this has never happened, a train does not depart if the signal is red, so did the rules change and why?

 

[GB]

Dispatching a train when the signal is still red creates a real risk of the driver passing the signal at danger....which of course is a very serious issue. I am not a dispatcher so don't know when the rules officially changed.

 

[Intermodal]

Here are the relevant rules from rulebook module SS1. A guard giving the driver 'two' on a red would be considered a safety of the line incident and the guard would usually be taken off the job.

Additionally, many major platforms these days are permissive, meaning they allow more than one train. If a platform is permissive then a driver is not permitted to move their train towards a red signal without authority of the signaller, as there may be a conflicting move inbound to the same platform that the driver does not know about. Therefore, moving up towards a red signal as you describe in your post would quite often be a rulebook violation in two ways!

 

[eoff]

I should clarify that the scenario noted was a long time ago. There may be no current trains where you can see forward from the passenger compartment through the drivers cab. The practice did continue for some time though.

 

[LowLevel]

Many years ago there was no rule book requirement for the guard to check the signal was clear prior to dispatching the train. A number of incidents attributed to the guard giving the right away and the driver passing a red signal changed that meaning that the dispatch process (with the exception of closing slam doors ready to be locked) must no longer start until the platform starting signal if provided has changed from red.

 

[GB]

If the signal is not on the platform but a little further down the line is there a minimum distance it has to be to be able to start the dispatch if its still red?

 

[ComUtoR]

If the signal is not on the platform but a little further down the line is there a minimum distance it has to be to be able to start the dispatch if its still red?

It depends if the signal is the platform starter or not. The *platform starter is where the AWS for the associated signal is in the platform and/or if a train is stopped at the signal, part of it would remain in the platform.

We have stations where you can be stopped at the next signal and still be in the platform but we still get dispatched :/ There is also an infamous signal for us where it is so tight that some belive you can pull up and others believe you can't.


*from the standards

 

[TravellingPhil]

If the signal is not on the platform but a little further down the line is there a minimum distance it has to be to be able to start the dispatch if its still red?

My understanding is that the maximum distance is the same as the longest length of the train to use that station. But I'm ready to be corrected.

(Edit: Just seen Comutor's answer above...much better answer than mine!)

Which signals are starting signals and which ones are not are a key part of the Guard's route knowledge anyway. And there are occasions where the Guard has to take a lengthy walk or work the doors from a particular point on the train to be able to see the signal.

 

[jon0844]

If the signal is not on the platform but a little further down the line is there a minimum distance it has to be to be able to start the dispatch if its still red?

If the platform is not signal controlled and the signal is beyond another 'berth', even though it is visible from the platform, then that could be the reason?

It would clearly be some distance ahead though.

 

[Mojo]

I’ve not travelled on this line for a few years, but it used to be quite common at Clifton Down passing loop for the guard to give 6 on the buzzer to the driver when the signal at the end of the loop was still set to danger as the train in the other direction hadn’t cleared the single line section yet. The driver would then draw down to the signal at a slow speed.

You can see from this YouTube thumbnail where the signal used to be: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/c2qYjDQvBGQ/maxresdefault.jpg

You can now see the signal where it is now on this thumbnail from a YouTube video: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QpemBTbzz2U/maxresdefault.jpg, so I guess this practice no longer happens as the new signal is right at the end of the ramp.

 

[QueensCurve]

There were a collision at Paisley Gilmour St in 1979. The following quote is taken from the report on the event.

49. In 1972, when the current British Railways Rule Book was issued. the former Rule 141(b) was
modified so that the signal from the guard to his driver was specifically defined as meaning 'Train Ready to
Start' in an attempt to tighten up train starting disciplines. Despite this, in 1977 and 1978 there were 36
cases reported of drivers passing Starting signals at Danger after receiving the 'Train Ready to Start' signal
from their guard. In 1977 there were 20 such cases involving 14 EMU, 2 DMU and 4 locomotive-hauled
trains, I8 incidents occurring at colour-light signals and 2 at semaphore signals. In 1978 16 cares were
reported involving 9 DMU, 6 EMU and one locomotive-hauled train at 13 colour-light and 3 semaphore
signals. In recent years there have been a number of accidents reported to the Railway Inspectorate from
this same cause. Luckily these have, for the most part, been of a minor nature. derailments at trap points
or slow speed collisions. Two more serious accidents from this cause, however, were the subject of formal
inquiries by this Inspectorate; these were the collision at Clapham Junction in September 1972 and the
collision at Pollockshields East Junction in June 1974. As a result of the general unsatisfactory situation
outlined above and of the Inquiries into the two accidents. the Inspectorate and the Board's Officers have
on several occasions discussed possible ways of reducing there incidents. One possibility considered was to
alter the meaning of the bell signal given by the guard or the .Right Away' hand signal given by the platform
staff or the guard where there is no bell communication with the driver, so that the signal would only be given
after the Starting signal had cleared to a proceed aspect. The great drawback to this proposal \+as that it
could not be made universal. as at many stations platforms are on curves and it is not possible for the platform
staff, if any, or guard. to see the Starting signal. The general view taken during the discussions prior to the
accident at Paisley was that if the rule was changed the effect would be to erode the driver's sole responsibility
of obeying running signals. In addition, the uncertainty of whether or not the bell or 'Right Away' hand
signal indicated that the Starting signal had been cleared or not was considered a possible source of confusion
which might well cause as many cases of drivers passing Starting signals at Danger as hitherto. Thus at that
time it was decided not to change the parts of Section H of the Rule Book dealing with bell and 'Right
Away' hand signals.

Following the event it British Rail reinserted the requirement for the guard and/or platform staff, if they were in a position to see the signal at the end of the platform, to not give a right-away signal to the driver.

 

[TheEdge]

If the signal is not on the platform but a little further down the line is there a minimum distance it has to be to be able to start the dispatch if its still red?

The few examples I know of that are like that are normally covered by some sort of local instruction. Normally if you can see the signal from the platform don't dispatch if its red. The down direction signals at Hoveton & Wroxham and North Walsham are like that, unless during degraded working where you do dispatch against them to draw up to complete modified working procedures.

 

[LowLevel]

I’ve not travelled on this line for a few years, but it used to be quite common at Clifton Down passing loop for the guard to give 6 on the buzzer to the driver when the signal at the end of the loop was still set to danger as the train in the other direction hadn’t cleared the single line section yet. The driver would then draw down to the signal at a slow speed.

You can see from this YouTube thumbnail where the signal used to be: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/c2qYjDQvBGQ/maxresdefault.jpg

You can now see the signal where it is now on this thumbnail from a YouTube video: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QpemBTbzz2U/maxresdefault.jpg, so I guess this practice no longer happens as the new signal is right at the end of the ramp.

6 bells has never been the right code to use for anything like that though, it seems to have become a local unofficial thing in parts of the Western Region. 6 bells is very specifically there to instruct the driver to draw up the train to an agreed point or until further instructed to stop by the guard for the purpose of repositioning in the platform, as opposed to 2 bells which is the standard signal for train ready to start having completed station duties or for example having reset a pass com which brought it to a stand.

So say a passenger train delayed by disruption needed to move towards a red signal to allow another train to arrive behind it, the driver would get permission to move from the box, come to an understanding with the guard and platform staff if provided, then the guard would conduct their normal dispatch procedure but give 6 bells rather than 2 to draw down the platform. Any train actually departing a station should be dispatched with 2 bells only.

 

[swt_passenger]

Botley down direction is the example that came to my mind. The signal protecting the single line towards Fareham is about 200m beyond the platform end, so it’s not quite enough for a full length train to sit fully off the platform, but my experience is that down trains almost always run down to the signal if it’s red.

 

[J-P_L]

Two that come to mind for me are Newton Le Willows on the Up Chat Moss. Signal can be seen from the platform but is not a starting signal (an 802 will fit comfortably between the platform and the signal).

Other is Leeds P15/16 if starting from the mid platform signal - trains can be dispatched on a single yellow from the mid platform and crawl along to the platform end signal (which usually will have cleared by this point, but on occasion is held at the platform end signal). Dispatcher walks with the train to maintain PTI vigilance until clear.

 

[GB]

Thanks all,

 

[CC 72100]

6 bells has never been the right code to use for anything like that though, it seems to have become a local unofficial thing in parts of the Western Region. 6 bells is very specifically there to instruct the driver to draw up the train to an agreed point or until further instructed to stop by the guard for the purpose of repositioning in the platform, as opposed to 2 bells which is the standard signal for train ready to start having completed station duties or for example having reset a pass com which brought it to a stand.

So say a passenger train delayed by disruption needed to move towards a red signal to allow another train to arrive behind it, the driver would get permission to move from the box, come to an understanding with the guard and platform staff if provided, then the guard would conduct their normal dispatch procedure but give 6 bells rather than 2 to draw down the platform. Any train actually departing a station should be dispatched with 2 bells only.

This.

If it's a plarform starting signal, the train doesn't move.

If its not a platform starting signal, then its 2.

6 only used in the more specific and less frequent circumstances as you've described.

I can think it one location where there is a little bit of debate about whether it is a starting signal or not. Using ComUtor's post (which also applies to us) it is not a Starting signal. Some Guards will wait until it clears. But if the train is going to be moved (more common), no 6 please!!

 

[josla1]

Two that come to mind for me are Newton Le Willows on the Up Chat Moss. Signal can be seen from the platform but is not a starting signal (an 802 will fit comfortably between the platform and the signal).

Other is Leeds P15/16 if starting from the mid platform signal - trains can be dispatched on a single yellow from the mid platform and crawl along to the platform end signal (which usually will have cleared by this point, but on occasion is held at the platform end signal). Dispatcher walks with the train to maintain PTI vigilance until clear.

Same applies at Manchester Piccadilly. Trains are always booked in platforms 13 and 14 but occasionally when there are delays and cogestion, doors will open up on 13b/14b when a train occupies the main platform. The train is held at at the signal on platform prior to the off platform signal. This is discouraged by network rail though as it causes confusion amongst passengers. Guards seem to disregard this and open the doors if they are standing for some time at 13/14b.
Therefore the same process is applied here as it is at Leeds, following the train out and watching the PTI very carefully.

 

[Ken H]

isnt this to do with whether the train receiver has passed the AWS magnet.

If the train has passed the magnet, then when the train restarts, no AWS warning will occur. So the guard has to observe the signal and not give the right away till it clears
If there is an AWS magnet between the front of the train and the signal, then the train can go, and the driver will get an AWS warning.
I assume the guard will have route knowledge to know which applies.

But how does and 'off' indicator affect how this all works?

 

[LowLevel]

Same applies at Manchester Piccadilly. Trains are always booked in platforms 13 and 14 but occasionally when there are delays and cogestion, doors will open up on 13b/14b when a train occupies the main platform. The train is held at at the signal on platform prior to the off platform signal. This is discouraged by network rail though as it causes confusion amongst passengers. Guards seem to disregard this and open the doors if they are standing for some time at 13/14b.
Therefore the same process is applied here as it is at Leeds, following the train out and watching the PTI very carefully.

If you sit for too long at a platform with the doors locked someone will get fed up of waiting and bang an egress to get off which causes far more disruption. I give them a minute at Picc and if they haven't got things moving I release the doors.

 

[jonnyfan]

Same applies at Manchester Piccadilly. Trains are always booked in platforms 13 and 14 but occasionally when there are delays and cogestion, doors will open up on 13b/14b when a train occupies the main platform. The train is held at at the signal on platform prior to the off platform signal. This is discouraged by network rail though as it causes confusion amongst passengers. Guards seem to disregard this and open the doors if they are standing for some time at 13/14b.
Therefore the same process is applied here as it is at Leeds, following the train out and watching the PTI very carefully.

The local instruction is that if the doors are permitted to be released in the 'B' section of platform 13 & 14 at Piccadilly then platform staff will inform the driver, the driver will in turn inform the guard to release the doors. If no instruction is received then the doors mustn't be released. And the train must not be dispatched from the 'B' section unless the mid-platform displays a Green or Double Yellow

 

[jonnyfan]

isnt this to do with whether the train receiver has passed the AWS magnet.

If the train has passed the magnet, then when the train restarts, no AWS warning will occur. So the guard has to observe the signal and not give the right away till it clears
If there is an AWS magnet between the front of the train and the signal, then the train can go, and the driver will get an AWS warning.
I assume the guard will have route knowledge to know which applies.

But how does and 'off' indicator affect how this all works?

The OFF indicator is to assist the guard and platform staff to inform them if the signal is displaying a proceed aspect, it's used when signal sighting is poor/impossible or a high risk of reading across to different signals. It will only light up when the signal is on proceed.

 

[craigybagel]

6 bells has never been the right code to use for anything like that though, it seems to have become a local unofficial thing in parts of the Western Region. 6 bells is very specifically there to instruct the driver to draw up the train to an agreed point or until further instructed to stop by the guard for the purpose of repositioning in the platform, as opposed to 2 bells which is the standard signal for train ready to start having completed station duties or for example having reset a pass com which brought it to a stand.

So say a passenger train delayed by disruption needed to move towards a red signal to allow another train to arrive behind it, the driver would get permission to move from the box, come to an understanding with the guard and platform staff if provided, then the guard would conduct their normal dispatch procedure but give 6 bells rather than 2 to draw down the platform. Any train actually departing a station should be dispatched with 2 bells only.

Whilst you are of course correct, there has been a fair bit of arguing about it amongst guards I know - not helped by the fact some drivers didn't like getting 2 at certain stations where the signal was visible from the platform but wasn't classed as a starting signal.

We had two of these problem signals when I was a guard. One of them was linked into the track circuits protecting an AHB crossing immediately after the signal. If you had a 5 car or longer train, the back end wouldn't clear the track circuits when stopped at the station, and the signal would never clear no matter how long you waited. Now officially you could give 2 - but a small amount of drivers objected to it, and personally I always felt very uncomfortable with it. I used to check with my driver and give them whatever signal, 2 or 6, they wanted - at the end of the day, we'd reached a clear understanding.

At the other location, it was a junction station. The signal and the station were both after the junction, but if you'd arrived at the station from the branch line, you had to stop at the signal box after the station stop to return the token. As a result, some signallers chose to keep the signal beside the box, which was visible from the platform but not strictly speaking a starting signal, at danger, to remind the drivers to stop at the box. Again I always checked in advance what the driver wanted - some were happy with 2, some would ask for 6, and some would refuse to move altogether until the signal cleared.

Again though, it all comes down to reaching a first understanding, and in the case of 6, making sure both the driver and guard understand exactly how far the drawing forward will be.

 

[LowLevel]

Whilst you are of course correct, there has been a fair bit of arguing about it amongst guards I know - not helped by the fact some drivers didn't like getting 2 at certain stations where the signal was visible from the platform but wasn't classed as a starting signal.

We had two of these problem signals when I was a guard. One of them was linked into the track circuits protecting an AHB crossing immediately after the signal. If you had a 5 car or longer train, the back end wouldn't clear the track circuits when stopped at the station, and the signal would never clear no matter how long you waited. Now officially you could give 2 - but a small amount of drivers objected to it, and personally I always felt very uncomfortable with it. I used to check with my driver and give them whatever signal, 2 or 6, they wanted - at the end of the day, we'd reached a clear understanding.

At the other location, it was a junction station. The signal and the station were both after the junction, but if you'd arrived at the station from the branch line, you had to stop at the signal box after the station stop to return the token. As a result, some signallers chose to keep the signal beside the box, which was visible from the platform but not strictly speaking a starting signal, at danger, to remind the drivers to stop at the box. Again I always checked in advance what the driver wanted - some were happy with 2, some would ask for 6, and some would refuse to move altogether until the signal cleared.

Again though, it all comes down to reaching a first understanding, and in the case of 6, making sure both the driver and guard understand exactly how far the drawing forward will be.

That's the problem - with a safety critical process like train dispatch there shouldn't be any discussion to carry it out one way or another depending on the crew members involved - that is precisely the kind of inconsistency that can increase the chances of it going wrong. There should be a standard method of carrying out the operation at the location in question.

 

[Ashley Hill]

We use 6 a lot. Examples are St James Park on the Down Waterloo. At Dawlish Warren if we give 6 and draw up to the signals (both well clear of the platforms) then we've departed the station right time and the delay is put down as signals. If we wait at the platform for the signal to clear we get the delay. Same at Worle in both directions.
Giving 6 came about our way as a driver was given 2 at SJP at had a SPAD. It was felt that giving 6 would draw attention to the red signal.
If 6 was given as part of a shunt move then the movement would have already been agreed with all concerned.

 

[Right Away]

We use 6 a lot. Examples are St James Park on the Down Waterloo. At Dawlish Warren if we give 6 and draw up to the signals (both well clear of the platforms) then we've departed the station right time and the delay is put down as signals. If we wait at the platform for the signal to clear we get the delay. Same at Worle in both directions.
Giving 6 came about our way as a driver was given 2 at SJP at had a SPAD. It was felt that giving 6 would draw attention to the red signal.
If 6 was given as part of a shunt move then the movement would have already been agreed with all concerned.

I much prefer to wait time at a platform then a few yards beyond it. If something goes wrong such as somebody being taken ill on the train or a problem further down the line resulting in a significant delay, you are much better off being at a station platform with easy egress than locked on a train remote from one. If the driver subsequently has a SPAD, that is not the fault of the guard. A train moving towards a red signal has the same risk irrespective of whether '2 bells' or '6 bells' has been given. Worrying about any delay minutes being attributed incorrectly is a common and often repeated myth. If the signal is at red you are not going anywhere whether you are stopped at the signal or in the platform before it. Somewhere like Worle where even the longest trains are easily clear of the platforms the driver should not be receiving '6 bells' on the buzzer. There is no consistency from guards when applying this train of thought. The signals are some distance away from the platforms. Then take stations like Bath Spa and Keynsham in the up direction. The next stop signals after both of the respective up platforms are significantly closer than those beyond the platforms at Worle, but because they are not visible during despatch, no guard ever gives '6 bells' at either of these locations. Surely the risk of the driver having a SPAD is greater at a platform where the next signal isn't visible compared to one where it is?

 

[Right Away]

I will add to my previous post that although in days past it may have been beneficial to draw up to the signal in order for the driver to use the Signal Post Telephone, the introduction of GSM-R has rendered that almost obsolete.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I much prefer to wait time at a platform then a few yards beyond it. If something goes wrong such as somebody being taken ill on the train or a problem further down the line resulting in a significant delay, you are much better off being at a station platform with easy egress than locked on a train remote from one. If the driver subsequently has a SPAD, that is not the fault of the guard. A train moving towards a red signal has the same risk irrespective of whether '2 bells' or '6 bells' has been given. Worrying about any delay minutes being attributed incorrectly is a common and often repeated myth. If the signal is at red you are not going anywhere whether you are stopped at the signal or in the platform before it. Somewhere like Worle where even the longest trains are easily clear of the platforms the driver should not be receiving '6 bells' on the buzzer. There is no consistency from guards when applying this train of thought. The signals are some distance away from the platforms. Then take stations like Bath Spa and Keynsham in the up direction. The next stop signals after both of the respective up platforms are significantly closer than those beyond the platforms at Worle, but because they are not visible during despatch, no guard ever gives '6 bells' at either of these locations. Surely the risk of the driver having a SPAD is greater at a platform where the next signal isn't visible compared to one where it is?

Where the signal is only a train length or so off the platform like you I wait at the station. Some (newer) drivers then poke their heads out the window wondering why you've not given 6. At Worle I always give 6 if either signals are red. Like you say though ,this is not consistent. Drivers from my depot expect 6 at Worle if adverse signals whilst Gloucester drivers for example give 2 back whilst shaking their heads.
There's no easy answer to Keynsham and Bath on the up. Neither signals are easily seen by the guard and at Bath not even the dispatcher can see the up signal.

 

[LowLevel]

Where the signal is only a train length or so off the platform like you I wait at the station. Some (newer) drivers then poke their heads out the window wondering why you've not given 6. At Worle I always give 6 if either signals are red. Like you say though ,this is not consistent. Drivers from my depot expect 6 at Worle if adverse signals whilst Gloucester drivers for example give 2 back whilst shaking their heads.
There's no easy answer to Keynsham and Bath on the up. Neither signals are easily seen by the guard and at Bath not even the dispatcher can see the up signal.

That should all have been squashed by your ops standards department. Train dispatch is clearly defined in the rulebook. SS1 says the ready to start signal should be given as per correct bell buzzer codes, the RA indicator if provided or a green hand signal, either a flag or lamp. TW1 defines the "ready to start" bell code as 2. Dispatching a train from a platform, as opposed to repositioning it, using anything other than 2 bells is a breach of the rules, whether it's one that has snuck in unofficially or not.

 

[43066]

We have stations where you can be stopped at the next signal and still be in the platform but we still get dispatched :/ There is also an infamous signal for us where it is so tight that some belive you can pull up and others believe you can't.

Tanners Hill?