Train derails on highway bridge in Washington state

[MarkyT]

Did he not propose to cut the budget for long-haul Amtrak a little while ago, though?

That's true, while in the same year Amtrack announced its best traffic year ever in November! This particular service and others in the state are underwritten by WSDOT (Washington State Department of Transportation) however, so wouldn't be affected directly by any federal budget cuts.

 

[Dixie]

Live aerial footage of the scene is being shown here as I write:

Bend doesn't look suitable for 79 mph, but presumably they must have run some trains through it to check it

 

[Dixie]

A photo from the scene

 

[Dixie]

I does appear as if the front locomotive has left the track travelling in a straight line rather than negotiating the left hand curve. It looks like it has pulled the first few carriages down the embankment and as they've all come to an abrupt halt, the remaining coaches have fanned out as each one has been stopped by the one in front. So, it appears likely not to have been an issue with the coach set, but rather the loco.

Also, back from the bend, just where the bend starts, what appears to be a fishplate and short section of track has been highlighted in pink spray paint, maybe an indication of a fault, or the place at which the loco jumpred the rails. I note the bend has inside check rails on both sides.

 

[Darandio]

Bend doesn't look suitable for 79 mph, but presumably they must have run some trains through it to check it

The bend is nowhere near suitable for 79mph, it's a 30mph limit.

 

[Dixie]

The train was reportedly travelling at 81 mph as reported by a GPS railroad App. Darandio, where was it reported that the bend is restricted to 30 mph?

 

[mrmartin]

It's definitely 30mph - you can see on this image here:

Apparently T = Talgo speed limit and P = passenger speed limit.

Apparently the 81mph is a load of rubbish off out of date GPS info from amtrak's website.

More stuff http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=166546&start=45

Something has went seriously wrong though, I'd be surprised if it was an overspeed considering they will have done a lot of testing and everyone should be paying full attention on the first run! The obstruction sounds more likely to me.

 

[philabos]

I know nothing about what actually happened here.
The track is not owned by a railroad, rather just built for Washington State DOT.
No BNSF or UP ownership involved.
The curve restricted to 30mph coming off 79mph as others have stated.

 

[Dixie]

Thanks for that mrmartin

 

[BRX]

No BNSF or UP ownership involved.

I thought the Amtrak woman on the live feed I was just watching implied it was BNSF track.

 

[Taunton]

I note the bend has inside check rails on both sides.

It is normal in the US to provide check rails inside both rails across bridges, even on straights, to keep anything already derailed from going over.

The extent of the derailment and the distance travelled off track by the lead loco makes a 30 mph derailment seem unlikely, unless conceivably the rear loco continued pushing long after the front of the train came off.

 

[AM9]

It is normal in the US to provide check rails inside both rails across bridges, even on straights, to keep anything already derailed from going over.

The extent of the derailment and the distance travelled off track by the lead loco makes a 30 mph derailment seem unlikely, unless conceivably the rear loco continued pushing long after the front of the train came off.

They don't look like check rails, more likely just additional rails tied to the sleepers to stiffen the bridge via the track and spread the load. It's done in the UK sometimes.

 

[westcoaster]

It's definitely 30mph - you can see on this image here:

Apparently T = Talgo speed limit and P = passenger speed limit.

Apparently the 81mph is a load of rubbish off out of date GPS info from amtrak's website.

More stuff http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=166546&start=45

Something has went seriously wrong though, I'd be surprised if it was an overspeed considering they will have done a lot of testing and everyone should be paying full attention on the first run! The obstruction sounds more likely to me.

In the image shown, the guys in the orange hi viz jackets. Is that retaining wall damaged, and what is behind them looks like something with a ladder sticking up.

 

[Chris M]

The extent of the derailment and the distance travelled off track by the lead loco makes a 30 mph derailment seem unlikely, unless conceivably the rear loco continued pushing long after the front of the train came off.

The rear loco continuing to push seems consistent with the end position - the annotated air photo on this BBC News article shows the leading end of the rear loco almost parallel with the trailing end of the last coach of the front portion of the train (which derailed to the right) - I think this is coach 5. what I presume to be coaches 6 and 7 are perpendicular to and level with coaches 3 and 4, coach 8 is on the road under the railway bridge having derailed to the left (roughly level with where coach 2 ended up), coaches 9, 10 and 11 are roughly level with coaches 3-5 and appear to be still connected to the rear loco. The rear loco is upright and in line with the track - possibly not even derailed.

 

[philabos]

I thought the Amtrak woman on the live feed I was just watching implied it was BNSF track.

I did not see the feed. Somehow, would not be surprised.
Washington DOT now saying the tracks are owned by Sound Transit, another government agency.
News stations are now broadcasting initial radio message declaring emergency. They say the engineer, not sure how they know.

 

[Chris M]

The rear loco continuing to push seems consistent with the end position

Since making that post I've seen a quote from an Amtrak official stating that the rear loco was "not under power", which does seem to imply more momentum than I would expect from 30mph.

 

[theageofthetra]

What sort of warning would have been provided in cab prior to the drop from 79mph to 30?

 

[talltim]

I’m pretty certain they don’t run the rear loco under power. I think the BNSF reference might come from the track being maintained by them under contract. Don’t quote me on that!

 

[185]

Good lord. This was just 3 weeks ago....
http://komonews.com/news/local/lake...eadly-accidents-from-high-speed-train-service

 

[philabos]

What sort of warning would have been provided in cab prior to the drop from 79mph to 30?

Nothing unless the line is equipped with PTC. Do not know the definitive answer to that yet.
Should be trackside advance warning signs but nothing in the locomotive unless PTC was present.

 

[AlexNL]

There is no PTC on that stretch of track, an Amtrak official confirmed.

 

[Antman]

Confirmed on this mornings news that the train was doing 80mph on a bend with a 30mph limit.

 

[ac6000cw]

In the image shown, the guys in the orange hi viz jackets. Is that retaining wall damaged,

It looks like it to me. The odd thing is that there seems to be very little damage to the track in the vicinity.

and what is behind them looks like something with a ladder sticking up.

Reported elsewhere as being an upturned/wrecked signal mast.

 

[theageofthetra]

There is no PTC on that stretch of track, an Amtrak official confirmed.

Is PTC similar to AWS or TPWS?

 

[ac6000cw]

Is PTC similar to AWS or TPWS?

From Wikipedia article :

A typical PTC system involves two basic components:

• Speed display and control unit on the locomotive
• A method to dynamically inform the speed control unit of changing track or signal conditions.[21]

Optionally, three additional components may exist:

• An on-board navigation system and track profile database to enforce fixed speed limits
• A bi-directional data link to inform signaling equipment of the train's presence
• Centralized systems to directly issue movement authorities to trains

 

[edwin_m]

They don't look like check rails, more likely just additional rails tied to the sleepers to stiffen the bridge via the track and spread the load. It's done in the UK sometimes.

It's known as a guard rail, and as stated above its purpose is to catch the wheels of a train, derailed for any reason, to make it less likely to go over the edge. Those in the UK serve the same purpose, and I believe are mandatory on bridges unless there's a solid parapet that would provide an alternative means to restrain a derailed train.

A check rail is much closer to the running rail and when associated with a curve it is on the inner rail only. The back of a wheel contacting the check rail prevents the opposite wheel from climbing over the rail on a curve or going through the gap at a crossing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is PTC similar to AWS or TPWS?

More like ETCS/ERTMS.
Implementation of PTC in the US is very sketchy and so far is not standardised.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control

A typical PTC system involves two basic components:

• Speed display and control unit on the locomotive
• A method to dynamically inform the speed control unit of changing track or signal conditions.[21]

Optionally, three additional components may exist:

• An on-board navigation system and track profile database to enforce fixed speed limits
• A bi-directional data link to inform signaling equipment of the train's presence
• Centralized systems to directly issue movement authorities to trains

 

[WatcherZero]

Bella Dinh-Zarr, spokeswoman with the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), told a news conference Data recorder of the rear engine confirms 81mph in to the curve..

They also released recording of the radio call a conductor made after the crash to control saying the train was on the freeway and requesting EMS, was asked what happened replied they went off on the curve, asked if there were casualties he replied I don't think so, I will tell you when I find the rest of my carriages.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/19/us/amtrak-derailment-washington/index.html

 

[ac6000cw]

Implementation of PTC in the US is very sketchy and so far is not standardised.

My understanding is that the freight railroads settled on a common implementation some time ago (as they want interoperability of equipment across the country), but some of the passenger operators have gone for different implementations. But installation and commissioning of the systems is running well behind the dates Congress originally mandated.

 

[theageofthetra]

So basically there was nothing to prevent it as in the Croydon crash.