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Track Condition in the UK

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Millisle

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A few years ago I used the reopened Beauly station (north of the river). Awaiting the train back to Inverness I saw the rail was 1930s LMS (I cannot recall the exact year). I think it has been relaid there now, but north of the river there is still some stuff that Historic Scotland might be interested in listing.
 
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Ships

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A few years ago I used the reopened Beauly station (north of the river). Awaiting the train back to Inverness I saw the rail was 1930s LMS (I cannot recall the exact year). I think it has been relaid there now, but north of the river there is still some stuff that Historic Scotland might be interested in listing.

There was a spec for a track renewal where the track was pre 1900 and the track panels were to be kept and given to the NRM
 

6Gman

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I know you are referring to Europe and not North America, but I don't think the track in this picture would be tolerated in our country, even for freight-only lines

5348.1331879562.jpg

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/392342/


Isn't that The Ivanhoe Line?

:D
 

Ships

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I perceive, and it might only be perception, that track condition in the UK is not as good as on the continent. A few questions:

1. Is that a fair statement?
2. If so, why is it - older underlying infrastructure or we do not replace track as often as they do on the continent?
3. What problems does this cause to the track that could otherwise be avoided or reduced - unexpected track defects, worse performance in very hot/cold weather?
4. What costs does this cause to the TOCs/ROSCO's in terms of increased maintenance costs? Could an accelerated track replacement programme be justified on the ground of lower maintenance costs for trains (leaving aside the fact that the incentives to make this work are fragmented in the privatised industry we have).
5. Is there any other upside from accelerating track replacement in the UK (for instance reduced costs attributable to delay) and do forum members think this should be more of a priority than it is at the moment.

1) no idea I would need to see some track quality statistics for SNCF, DB etc.

2) I belive they have better engineering access on the continent. In Austria, Switzerland etc their track layouts are better configured for renewals and maintainence, they have more bi directional running and more cross. They also have a more robust asset strategy where for example s&c will undergo refurbishment at set points in its life which keep reliability high and keep the asset out of the failure cliff on the p2f curve where is becomes very expensive to repair the asset.

3) We've had a money starved BR and privatisation where sweating the asset was common policy, unfortunately this has lead to large renewals back logs, something we're still trying to get over.

As has been said in many places the engineering access has been eroded such that it's almost impossible to do track maintainence and renewals also become very expensive.

The routes rightly put the passengers first so they're very risk averse when it comes to over runs, meaning more contingency is required, this further reduces access and increased costs.

We've historically neglected drainage maintainence, this has caused formation failure in many places which greatly reduced the service life of the track system. Unfortunately we will still prioritise the track renewal over the drainage renewal so that within a short time the formation is failing again, basically throwing good money after bad.

However there are minimum standards of maintainence that need to be adhered to and we have a track asset policy which is designed to get the best value out of our renewals.

Poor track quality will lead to TRS's and ESR's which cost network rail money, that and say s&c failures are the direct cost to network rails. As I said before the overall whole life cost is increased if we cannot maintain and refurbish at the optimal time.

4) I don't think the TOC suffers too much, the trains are designed to withstand the forces. The decreased whole life cost is a very good reason to increase maintainence and refurbishment but as we work in 5 year cycles pushing the long term view isn't always easy although we are getting better.
5) think I answered it in 3!
 

infobleep

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I wonder what the oldest still in use rail and / or sleeper is? Wouldn't mind travelling over it as it's a bit of history that has seen a fair few trains over it. Perhaps as far back as the days of steam engines.

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Ships

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Some 1936 rail on the Cumbrian coast according to geogis. There's also 1922 rail up at Briggs sidings.
 

D Foster

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:D Seen both of those in the UK :D Welsh Border for the first and ECML for various versions of the second - on the slow lines. The thing is - that damage happens. It's as simple as that. When anything is serious enough a TSR or ESR is put on. Most of the time any ordinary passengers probably wouldn't really notice any slowing of the train and near definitely not any unusual sway... Which is not a comment on the usual speeds or wobbles!

The drainage issue is significant. It was more so when BR was being starved of cash. Dorking Town was an example that I experienced. The speed through both platforms was reduced to 2mph because chalk residue seeping into the ballast had set the whole lot like concrete. When they started to dig it out the broke their digger - ended up jack-hammering it out a lump at a time. The Occupation over-ran a teensie bit.
WCML I've been in a train that hit a wet-beds patch without having slowed - and I still don't know how it stayed on the track - 30+ years later.
A few years ago there was LNWR track still in place at Holywell - but in a disused siding.
The good news is that the government are massively pouring cash into privatised improvements paid for by all our taxes. The Bill that I've been told about for an HOBC doing a night's work - usually at best a half mile of track - between late running trains and early ECS movements - is a frightening amount... But - the old style weekend ballast cleaning jobs would be en horrific cost if they even could be re-instated compared to the HOBC - and attendant tamper, regulator and spoil train.
 

Trog

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Why isn't drainage renewal a standard part of any track renewal?

Because it is usually not needed, and where it is you usually get a better job if renewing the drains is done as a standalone job before or after the track relaying. As possessions are now so tight for time that if you try and do both at once the drainage either ends up being rushed or is dropped to get the job back on time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
these puppies, will soon have the Permanent Way licked....[/url]

I wonder... reduced possession time while waiting for the machine to get to site, something else complicated to go wrong, probably costs the earth to buy run and staff.

May be useful in certain areas where access to get materials and men to site is difficult, and could be used with the sides in where only a single line is available in the middle of a layout. Otherwise is it a solution looking for a problem?
 

Bald Rick

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Why isn't drainage renewal a standard part of any track renewal?

Because it is often not needed, and costs half as much again as just renewing rail / sleepers and ballast.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wonder... reduced possession time while waiting for the machine to get to site, something else complicated to go wrong, probably costs the earth to buy run and staff.

May be useful in certain areas where access to get materials and men to site is difficult, and could be used with the sides in where only a single line is available in the middle of a layout. Otherwise is it a solution looking for a problem?

That's the point - it will be used in the places that are difficult to get access. Also it can run in as a train and have the possession / worksite taken around it, and ditto in reverse at the end of the job.

There's not going to be many of these machines, so they will only be used where other methods are difficult or particularly inefficient.
 

Ships

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Because it is often not needed, and costs half as much again as just renewing rail / sleepers and ballast.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That's the point - it will be used in the places that are difficult to get access. Also it can run in as a train and have the possession / worksite taken around it, and ditto in reverse at the end of the job.

There's not going to be many of these machines, so they will only be used where other methods are difficult or particularly inefficient.

You would be surprised how many track bed investigations recommend drainage refurbishment or renewal, I would say more than half easily. Historically drainage was funded from the track pot but wasn't given a volume of work so would make the track renewal look expensive, unfortunately when cost increase and budgets tighten it meant that drainage usually was the first to go. Unfortunatly this leads to the absurd situation you had on the SAC where there are renewals sites from 2010 that has do have formation renewals again in 2014/15 because the drainage hadn't been sorted and they'd failed.
 

QueensCurve

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At the time, the only freight was flask traffic to and from Trawsfynydd power station which ceased in 1998! However, trains hadn't regularly been past the headshunt since the 1960s, before the line to Bala was closed and severed by LLyn Celyn.

There was a concern raised by anti-nuclear campaigners in the late 1980s about there being rotten sleepers on the Trawsfynydd branch. This struck me as spurious since the railway was deemed safe for trains and the "Type B" containers used to transport used nuclear fuel are designed t to remain intact under accident conditions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I perceive, and it might only be perception, that track condition in the UK is not as good as on the continent. A few questions:

Some years ago I formed the impression that the standard of Permanent Way maintenance was particularly high in Switzerland. It was the standard of the metre guage Raetische Bahn were I notices this, but I think it is more generally applicable.
 

scott118

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That's the point - it will be used in the places that are difficult to get access. Also it can run in as a train and have the possession / worksite taken around it, and ditto in reverse at the end of the job.

There's not going to be many of these machines, so they will only be used where other methods are difficult or particularly inefficient.

I think that there will be 10 of these machines, in total. They can indeed run in traffic, and can also be operated, without the need to have a block on an open line, as the crew can operate, within the confinds of the extended sides. Time will tell how cost effective, these machines will be..
 

richieb1971

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I think France has straighter tracks that are welded for miles. So you could argue more of the track is of a modern type and the line speed is generally higher.
 

Ships

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I think France has straighter tracks that are welded for miles. So you could argue more of the track is of a modern type and the line speed is generally higher.

Most of ours is welded, especially on the main line
 

DarloRich

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I think France has straighter tracks that are welded for miles. So you could argue more of the track is of a modern type and the line speed is generally higher.

our track is welded and has been for years. Our rail is delivered in 218m lenghts and then further welded together. BTW Thermite welding is pretty impressive. Check it out. The Flashbutt welder is also quite intresting
 
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coppercapped

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I think France has straighter tracks that are welded for miles. So you could argue more of the track is of a modern type and the line speed is generally higher.

Are you referring to the Lignes Grande Vitesse or to the classic network?

And France still has track faults, Google for the accident at Brétigny-sur-Orge in 2013.
 
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infobleep

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Some 1936 rail on the Cumbrian coast according to geogis. There's also 1922 rail up at Briggs sidings.
I've been to Workington from Carlisle so if it's that stretch of line at all I've been along them!

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furnessvale

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There was a concern raised by anti-nuclear campaigners in the late 1980s about there being rotten sleepers on the Trawsfynydd branch. This struck me as spurious since the railway was deemed safe for trains and the "Type B" containers used to transport used nuclear fuel are designed t to remain intact under accident conditions.

Anti nuclear campaigners have always used spurious arguments about rail transport of nuclear waste.

Funnily enough, I never heard them complaining about ROAD haulage of the same material through the centre of our towns and cities, which I think all will agree is soooo much safer!
 

Trog

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They can indeed run in traffic, and can also be operated, without the need to have a block on an open line, as the crew can operate, within the confinds of the extended sides.

Surely in most places if you extend the sides the unit goes out of gauge and you need the adjacent line blocked anyway?
 

infobleep

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Darbs

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I think it's a fantastic piece of equipment, if I had stayed on the p.way would have loved to use it. However I can see it ending up spending more time sat around in sidings along with most of our other yellow machines. We are very bad at utilising the expensive equipment available for track maintenance. And each DU will have to "hire" it in for each planned shift and coming from an area where we wouldn't even pay for a ballast train I can see what's going to happen. And of course we need enough p.way staff to be able to work with it! I hope I am to be proved wrong! Time will tell!
 

Trog

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Yes as they say in the first video the sides can only be extended if structures and clearances allow. So often you will either need to work up against the side of the machine or have the adjacent line blocked so you can extend the side. Probably a good tool in the right place, but where getting materials and men to and from site is not unusually difficult the old fashioned way is probably still cheaper and easier.
 
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