TPE Seeking additional Bi-mode stock

[RailWonderer]

Unless the DfT want them elsewhere e.g. EWR.

That would work, they could be maintained at Bedford with the 360s or at Northampton with the 350s and that would be a great place for them.

One word - "wires". DMUs in large cities are going to become increasingly unacceptable, and if you've ever spent 10 minutes in Victoria (or New St for that matter) when one was sat there pumping out its thick fug you'd see why.

I admit New St is the worst for fumes but the reason for the big shopping area is so you only go down to the platform when your train is ready. With its low roof Man Vic is much airier with its high glass awning. I'd say St Pancras is worse when you approach the escalators to the EMR platforms and even on the mezzanine, even family I've been with always mention the fumes.

 

[Ex-controller]

This is off topic, but if some 185s were going off lease, I know an operator in Scotland who are under pressure to replace antiquated IC stock who might take a few.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I admit New St is the worst for fumes but the reason for the big shopping area is so you only go down to the platform when your train is ready. With its low roof Man Vic is much airier with its high glass awning. I'd say St Pancras is worse when you approach the escalators to the EMR platforms and even on the mezzanine, even family I've been with always mention the fumes.

Manchester Victoria utterly stinks of diesel fumes. It's easily as bad as New St (which doesn't have that many DMUs left now). The high ceiling bit is fine, but the bit under the Arena is awful.

 

[LittleAH]

A quick add-on comment, part of me is quite worried that by having most of the services on the Diggle Route worked by Bi-modes gives the DfT an excuse to downscale TRU to a discontinuous electrification scheme, with areas that are difficult and expensive to electrifify not electrified.

Diversionary routes and off core network services. Unless they are electrified then bi-modes are required to replace the 185s. Currently only Newcastle - Liverpool services would be covered by a fully electric train. Although, I believe the engines on 802s can be removed at a later date by Hitachi.

The commitment is to electrify the entire TRU route though. So I don't see that as an issue.

 

[XAM2175]

TPE has more than enough 185s which are excellent units and some of the finest in the country. There is no need to replace them with any flimsy bogied Japanese stuff. I'd be interested in the reasoning behind this decision, but of course (and I hope) nothing comes of it. This IET mania has to stop.

What about Hitachi's bogies makes them flimsy?

 

[RailWonderer]

Manchester Victoria utterly stinks of diesel fumes. It's easily as bad as New St (which doesn't have that many DMUs left now). The high ceiling bit is fine, but the bit under the Arena is awful.

What DMUs did they get rid of? There are still the WMR and XC 170s, 172s, XC Voyagers and incoming WMR 196s.

What about Hitachi's bogies makes them flimsy?

They are lighter than older bogies which make them worse shock absorbers which in turn makes the ride quality rougher on poor sections of track and on points.

 

[Neptune]

I admit New St is the worst for fumes but the reason for the big shopping area is so you only go down to the platform when your train is ready. With its low roof Man Vic is much airier with its high glass awning.

The area under the arena is terrible, especially the far side on p6.

I'd say St Pancras is worse when you approach the escalators to the EMR platforms and even on the mezzanine, even family I've been with always mention the fumes.

St Pancras will soon be all electric once the 810’s replace the 222’s proving the point that it is better to have a bi-mode on partially electrified routes than waiting for full electrification which could take years.

The yaw damper issue will be rectified once they enter traffic so won’t be afflicted by the same problems as the current Hitachi fleet, the same goes for any future builds of them).

Don’t let bias against the Hitachi fleet cloud your judgment over the environmental issues in stations which you have mentioned.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It’s not going to be 25 replacing the 185’s. The 25 figure is including the replacement of the 68’s for a loco such as the 88 (it won’t be an 88).

OK, even 10 would be useful to Northern. A lot of their 150s are on their last legs.

 

[noddingdonkey]

They are looking for 25 125mph bi-modes which can be readily converted to electric only. Likely five-car but potentially either delivered as or able to be extended to six or seven cars.

What conversion is necessary other than stopping filling up with diesel?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What conversion is necessary other than stopping filling up with diesel?

Unbolting and scrapping the engines. If it's there it has to be maintained.

 

[MattRat]

What conversion is necessary other than stopping filling up with diesel?

You won't want excess weight, it's inefficient, so the engines need to be pulled out, plus any equipment that they use like fuel tanks.

 

[skyhigh]

OK, even 10 would be useful to Northern. A lot of their 150s are on their last legs.

A microfleet of 10 units would be pretty useless to Northern (and they have made it very clear any incoming stock has to be largely the same as existing stock - they want less types of unit, not more).

 

[hexagon789]

What conversion is necessary other than stopping filling up with diesel?

Removing the dead weight of the engines?

 

[Neptune]

Unbolting and scrapping the engines. If it's there it has to be maintained.

Unless they are retained for diversionary purposes. Cheaper than hiring an adapted loco and better than bus replacement.

 

[Mollman]

I think some of these conversations show that there is a need for the GBR Transition Team to develop and publish a solid rolling stock policy. Whilst we currently have the issue of mid-life and newer EMUs going off lease (and to scrap in some cases), the same issue will soon arrive with DMUs starting with the 180s & 222s on the MML. The 185s should be able to find a new home easier than the more intercity stock but there are issues around weight that would need addressing for them to go onto Regional Express routes.

 

[AlastairFraser]

A microfleet of 10 units would be pretty useless to Northern (and they have made it very clear any incoming stock has to be largely the same as existing stock - they want less types of unit, not more).

Even with their failing fleet of 15x stock? Seems shortsighted to me.

 

[skyhigh]

Even with their failing fleet of 15x stock? Seems shortsighted to me.

Who says it's a failing fleet? Have you seen the reliability figures vs 195s and 170s?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Who says it's a failing fleet? Have you seen the reliability figures vs 195s and 170s?

I've been on (or rather not) quite a few cancelled or heavily delayed 150 operated services recently due to train breaking down or some other fault. So many of them are clapped out, a few months ago one was struggling to get through Chapel-en-le-Frith Tunnel.
I could hear the engines struggling and the driver repeatedly reengaging the engine, to little avail.
I don't live on the Yorks side so no idea about the 170s, but 195s just had a few teething problems and are relatively reliable units now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You won't want excess weight, it's inefficient, so the engines need to be pulled out, plus any equipment that they use like fuel tanks.

Or better still, buy new EMUs and cascade the bi-modes to the next deserving route to further reduce diesel miles under the wires.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could hear the engines struggling and the driver repeatedly reengaging the engine, to little avail.

That's slipping on poor railhead conditions. It can happen to any unit.

 

[skyhigh]

I've been on (or rather not) quite a few cancelled or heavily delayed 150 operated services recently due to train breaking down or some other fault. So many of them are clapped out, a few months ago one was struggling to get through Chapel-en-le-Frith Tunnel.
I could hear the engines struggling and the driver repeatedly reengaging the engine, to little avail.
I don't live on the Yorks side so no idea about the 170s, but 195s just had a few teething problems and are relatively reliable units now.

That is merely anecdotal evidence. Last I checked 195s and 170s were less reliable than the 15x as a whole. As @Bletchleyite says, that sounds exactly like wheel slip and would affect any unit - not a unit fault.

15x only require simple conversion courses between the types, are well known and understood by crew and fitters, have a large overlapping spares pool and when they do fail can often be fixed by a man with a hammer and bag of spare parts. They and 170s are compatible in multiple so can also easily rescue a failed unit.

A microfleet of 185s (unsuitable and shoehorned onto another route) would be a nightmare in terms of planning, crew training, repair/servicing and rescue. A small number of unique units within a business does not make for a reliable fleet.

 

[RailWonderer]

A microfleet of 185s (unsuitable and shoehorned onto another route) would be a nightmare in terms of planning, crew training, repair/servicing and rescue. A small number of unique units within a business does not make for a reliable fleet.

Not necessarily true. When the 21 class 360s were ordered for FGE they were under a full Siemens maintenance contract until 2016, then a partial contract until 2020 and they were used 19-20/21 most day’s and were winning golden spanners while being intensively worked. The class 333s on Northern are also a very reliable micro fleet. It depends on the expertise of the maintenance depot. Siemens Northam is the gold standard of maintenance and Wimbledon depot’s class 458s (again a micro fleet) went from some of the most unreliable trains to the most reliable in a few years.

Who knows what GBR has in store for rolling stock procurement? It could well be we see a drought in new orders.

 

[NoMorePacers]

I don't live on the Yorks side so no idea about the 170s, but 195s just had a few teething problems and are relatively reliable units now.

Now they work more limited stop services around Hull I don't think they're as bad as they were when they first started on Northern, but there's still some issues (based on my own anecdotal evidence admittedly). I'd estimate at least one Scarborough-Sheffield diagram a day runs a 158 on it in its entirety, plus you get ad-hoc set swaps at Hull as well (typically a unit comes in from Sheffield and a 155 or 158 gets sent up to Scarborough in its place I've found).

 

[AlastairFraser]

Now they work more limited stop services around Hull I don't think they're as bad as they were when they first started on Northern, but there's still some issues (based on my own anecdotal evidence admittedly). I'd estimate at least one Scarborough-Sheffield diagram a day runs a 158 on it in its entirety, plus you get ad-hoc set swaps at Hull as well (typically a unit comes in from Sheffield and a 155 or 158 gets sent up to Scarborough in its place I've found).

I'm assuming this is the 170s, I have heard some allegations about the quality of some depots maintenance, which may be the reason why their performance is not as good.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2022 ==

That is merely anecdotal evidence. Last I checked 195s and 170s were less reliable than the 15x as a whole. As @Bletchleyite says, that sounds exactly like wheel slip and would affect any unit - not a unit fault.

15x only require simple conversion courses between the types, are well known and understood by crew and fitters, have a large overlapping spares pool and when they do fail can often be fixed by a man with a hammer and bag of spare parts. They and 170s are compatible in multiple so can also easily rescue a failed unit.

A microfleet of 185s (unsuitable and shoehorned onto another route) would be a nightmare in terms of planning, crew training, repair/servicing and rescue. A small number of unique units within a business does not make for a reliable fleet.

Where are there publicly available figures for unit reliability? I cannot assess these figures until I see them. I doubt it was wheel slip unless there were wheel flats as it was a dry winter's day.
15x are more simple to maintain and fix, yes, but some maintenance personnel from Longsight could transfer over to depots responsible for them if needed, pending a further transfer of 185s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2022 ==

That's slipping on poor railhead conditions. It can happen to any unit.

You say that, but it was a dry winter's day with no leaves or rain in sight, the more likely cause is the steep gradients in the area.

 

[swt_passenger]

Tony Miles writing in WNXX has again emphasised that these are NOT for replacing 397s or Mk5 sets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You say that, but it was a dry winter's day with no leaves or rain in sight, the more likely cause is the steep gradients in the area.

Tunnels are damp and often feature slippery rails. The sound of the engine cutting out and running back up that you describe is the wheelslip protection kicking in. If it was having trouble with the gradient it'd just be labouring a bit, with a lot of noise and fumes and very slow movement, but there's not a lot that phases a 150 in that regard.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Tunnels are damp and often feature slippery rails. The sound of the engine cutting out and running back up that you describe is the wheelslip protection kicking in. If it was having trouble with the gradient it'd just be labouring a bit, with a lot of noise and fumes and very slow movement, but there's not a lot that phases a 150 in that regard.

That's a fair explanation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2022 ==

Tony Miles writing in WNXX has again emphasised that these are NOT for replacing 397s or Mk5 sets.

It was ludicrous to think in the first place that the DfT would agree to replace perfectly functional nearly new stock in a time of railway cutbacks.

 

[py_megapixel]

It was ludicrous to think in the first place that the DfT would agree to replace perfectly functional nearly new stock in a time of railway cutbacks.

The "North Star" interiors on 185s are still nearly new in my head... it certainly doesn't seem like they need replacement.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

The "North Star" interiors on 185s are still nearly new in my head... it certainly doesn't seem like they need replacement.

So we should just have diesel under wires? This is environmental, nothing else

 

[Bletchleyite]

So we should just have diesel under wires? This is environmental, nothing else

Exactly. The 185s should be redeployed onto routes that will not be electrified in the near future, allowing a cascade to start getting rid of the oldest 15x.