TPE Seeking additional Bi-mode stock

[CrickUK]

There is an article in Railway Gazette:

First Trans Pennine Express is hopeful that it will be able to issue a call for expressions of interest in the provision of additional bi-mode trains before the end of March.

Does anybody have any info on what they are looking for?

 

[hexagon789]

There is an article in Railway Gazette:

First Trans Pennine Express is hopeful that it will be able to issue a call for expressions of interest in the provision of additional bi-mode trains before the end of March.

Does anybody have any info on what they are looking for?

More 802s or similar probably.

 

[43102EMR]

There is an article in Railway Gazette:

First Trans Pennine Express is hopeful that it will be able to issue a call for expressions of interest in the provision of additional bi-mode trains before the end of March.

Does anybody have any info on what they are looking for?

Part of it will be bi-mode locos to replace the 68s - the others are unconfirmed, but likely units to replace the 185s on any remaining services.

 

[hexagon789]

They are looking for 25 125mph bi-modes which can be readily converted to electric only. Likely five-car but potentially either delivered as or able to be extended to six or seven cars.

 

[swt_passenger]

Part of it will be bi-mode locos to replace the 68s - the others are unconfirmed, but likely units to replace the 185s on any remaining services.

I think the locos are completely separate to this proposal, which according to Tony Miles in WNXX is about ”up to 25” bimode trains of length 5 or 7 cars, thought to be 185 replacements.

 

[py_megapixel]

They are looking for 25 125mph bi-modes which can be readily converted to electric only. Likely five-car but potentially either delivered as or able to be extended to six or seven cars.

It would probably be surprising if Hitachi didn't win that.

 

[hexagon789]

It would probably be surprising if Hitachi didn't win that.

Oh absolutely, I imagine they will add a compatibility clause, which will effectively make Hitachi a shoe-in.

Compatibility with the 802s is logical of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There appear to be 51 185s. 25 doesn't quite replace the capacity (nor the number of units as they don't all run in pairs), so if it is to replace them that's a bad move unless they go 7-car.

Or are the local services TPE presently operate for Northern going back to them again, with those new hybrid 195s on order? That would make it more or less add up, though a 5-car 802 has slightly fewer seats than a double 185.

 

[Watershed]

There appear to be 51 185s. 25 doesn't quite replace the capacity (nor the number of units as they don't all run in pairs), so if it is to replace them that's a bad move unless they go 7-car.

Or are the local services TPE presently operate for Northern going back to them again, with those new hybrid 195s on order? That would make it more or less add up, though a 5-car 802 has slightly fewer seats than a double 185.

They only take up 4 units (2 for the stoppers either side of Huddersfield). There's little prospect of those returning to Northern as they were deliberately transferred to TPE in preparation for TRU.

 

[hexagon789]

25 doesn't quite replace the capacity (nor the number of units as they don't all run in pairs), so if it is to replace them that's a bad move unless they go 7-car.

A rumour I heard was it would be more 802s or very similar to permit withdrawal of the 397 micro-fleet and a general expansion but nothing on the 185s.

If that is a rumour, there is also the fact that TPE was to return fifteen 185 units, but that was of course postponed. That gives 35 units, which 25 higher-capacity units may be sufficient to just about cover? Especially if these new units are essentially 802s or at least 802 compatible, so either type could cover a diagram.

 

[MDB1images]

Be great if they stipulated it has to have the interior and internal layout of a Class 397.
A Hitachi unit with a Class 397 interior would be ideal(if not unlikely).

 

[DanNCL]

A rumour I heard was it would be more 802s or very similar to permit withdrawal of the 397 micro-fleet and a general expansion but nothing on the 185s.

There are no proposals to replace the 397s, it's a rumour that comes up regularly but there is no truth to it. If these 25 bi-modes materialise, they'll be for the North TPE route alongside the 802s.

 

[43102EMR]

There appear to be 51 185s. 25 doesn't quite replace the capacity (nor the number of units as they don't all run in pairs), so if it is to replace them that's a bad move unless they go 7-car.

Or are the local services TPE presently operate for Northern going back to them again, with those new hybrid 195s on order? That would make it more or less add up, though a 5-car 802 has slightly fewer seats than a double 185.

Depends on the amount of carriages the units will have? 25 5 car units should be sufficient depending on lengths etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

A rumour I heard was it would be more 802s or very similar to permit withdrawal of the 397 micro-fleet and a general expansion but nothing on the 185s.

If that is a rumour, there is also the fact that TPE was to return fifteen 185 units, but that was of course postponed. That gives 35 units, which 25 higher-capacity units may be sufficient to just about cover? Especially if these new units are essentially 802s or at least 802 compatible, so either type could cover a diagram.

Why would they replace the 397s considering they just entered service? If they were going to replace them from the get-go, may as well have cancelled the order back in 2017/18 and ordered more 802s! Not to mention the Mk5as are also CAF built and both are maintained at Longsight.

 

[hexagon789]

Be great if they stipulated it has to have the interior and internal layout of a Class 397.
A Hitachi unit with a Class 397 interior would be ideal(if not unlikely).

I suspect the idea is as great as possible level of homogeneity to the 802s as possible.

There are no proposals to replace the 397s, it's a rumour that comes up regularly but there is no truth to it. If these 25 bi-modes materialise, they'll be for the North TPE route alongside the 802s.

Oh I know it does, but I keep an open mind. Nothing surprises me anymore as little sense as it may or may not make.

Why would they replace the 397s considering they just entered service? If they were going to replace them from the get-go, may as well have cancelled the order back in 2017/18 and ordered more 802s!

Well quite, but when does the railway ever work quite a clean cut as that. Not the first time a TOC has stopped leasing a brand new train after a short period.

The latest rumour I saw was it was down to a desire to reduce the number of different trains in operation and to enable interworking of diagrams with a view to greater efficiency but who knows?

You have to admit though, as rumours go, it's not by any means the most outlandish one.

 

[Philip]

The latest rumour I saw was it was down to a desire to reduce the number of different trains in operation and to enable interworking of diagrams with a view to greater efficiency but who knows?

You have to admit though, as rumours go, it's not by any means the most outlandish one.

In that case it makes 185s the obvious fleet to replace in order to cut down on the number of different train types.

 

[Watershed]

The latest rumour I saw was it was down to a desire to reduce the number of different trains in operation and to enable interworking of diagrams with a view to greater efficiency but who knows?

There wouldn't be any efficiency through interworking of unit diagrams - when the timetable increases back to what it's due to be, pretty much all the turnarounds on TPE services will be roughly the ideal length (with the exception of the Redcar service, but that is in the process of being extended to Saltburn anyway).

There could, however, be some efficiency in terms of traincrew diagrams if you reduced the number of fleets. There's no depot that signs all the fleets, even for conductors. That said, route knowledge will ultimately still limit who can cover what - for example, whilst Liverpool could learn up to Preston or Carlisle, that would be a big task in terms of route learning even if you eliminated the issue of traction knowledge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have to admit though, as rumours go, it's not by any means the most outlandish one.

It's indeed not. Give or take those Northern stopping services that require a single 185, and give or take the cracking problems, it would be so much easier for TPE to operate a single type, and if they were going to do that that type would be the 802.

 

[Watershed]

In that case it makes 185s the obvious fleet to replace in order to cut down on the number of different train types.

Hardly so. When the 185s are eventually replaced, it will be for environmental reasons in all likelihood. They are the most flexible fleet by far. There is little prospect of all the 185s on the Cleethorpes route being replaced anytime soon, for example, even if some are displaced by the Mk5s.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

There appear to be 51 185s. 25 doesn't quite replace the capacity (nor the number of units as they don't all run in pairs), so if it is to replace them that's a bad move unless they go 7-car.

Or are the local services TPE presently operate for Northern going back to them again, with those new hybrid 195s on order? That would make it more or less add up, though a 5-car 802 has slightly fewer seats than a double 185.

Not all 51 185s are in use are they???

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

Hardly so. When the 185s are eventually replaced, it will be for environmental reasons in all likelihood. They are the most flexible fleet by far. There is little prospect of all the 185s on the Cleethorpes route being replaced anytime soon, for example, even if some are displaced by the Mk5s.

185s will be disappearing from the Cleethorpes route and replaced by Mark 5a and Class 68s in preparation for extension to Liverpool.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This from a company that has never deployed its existing fleet fully and currently has a lot of it sat idle.
It's also one of several speculative procurements that doesn't yet seem to have got a level of approval from DfT (Northern and LNER are others).
I imagine the full approval of the TRU project means they can have some confidence that Manchester-York will be wired in this decade.
They did of course have additional options for the 2015 franchise with CAF on more/lengthened 397s which has probably timed out.
The manufacturers will also be keen to fill emptying production lines.
Railway Gazette is normally a reliable source, but this one seems exotic to me in the current circumstances.
If this was a GBR-inspired procurement I would be more impressed.

TransPennine Express explores further fleet and capacity expansion options

UK: First TransPennine Express is hopeful that it will be able to issue a call for expressions of interest in the provision of additional bi-mode trains before the end of March.

www.railwaygazette.com

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

This from a company that has never deployed its existing fleet fully and currently has a lot of it sat idle.
It's also one of several speculative procurements that doesn't yet seem to have got a level of approval from DfT (Northern and LNER are others).
I imagine the full approval of the TRU project means they can have some confidence that Manchester-York will be wired in this decade.
They did of course have additional options for the 2015 franchise with CAF on more/lengthened 397s which has probably timed out.
The manufacturers will also be keen to fill emptying production lines.
Railway Gazette is normally a reliable source, but this one seems exotic to me in the current circumstances.
If this was a GBR-inspired procurement I would be more impressed.

TransPennine Express explores further fleet and capacity expansion options

UK: First TransPennine Express is hopeful that it will be able to issue a call for expressions of interest in the provision of additional bi-mode trains before the end of March.

www.railwaygazette.com

Can you post the full article???

 

[Watershed]

Not all 51 185s are in use are they???

Almost all are at the moment (I'm talking December timetable figures here):

• 14 units on Redcar (7 circuits, doubled up)
• 12 units on Cleethorpes (6 circuits, doubled up)
• 10 units on Hull (5 circuits, doubled up)
• 4 units on Scarborough (2 circuits, doubled up)
• 4 units on Huddersfield stoppers

That's 44 units, plus then you have 4-6 maintenance units (varies by day), so just 1 spare in theory. In practice, the current emergency timetable has freed up a few units, and some circuits have been de-strengthened to allow for more training to happen. But there's not a great deal of slack in there.

The addition of the Mk5s into the Cleethorpes route will, at least initially, only serve to compensate for the extension to Liverpool, which takes an additional 2 circuits/4 185s. Equally, the all-day extension of the Redcar service through to Saltburn is only possible once more Mk5s are deployed - as that also takes an additional circuit/2 185s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

This from a company that has never deployed its existing fleet fully and currently has a lot of it sat idle.
It's also one of several speculative procurements that doesn't yet seem to have got a level of approval from DfT (Northern and LNER are others).
I imagine the full approval of the TRU project means they can have some confidence that Manchester-York will be wired in this decade.
They did of course have additional options for the 2015 franchise with CAF on more/lengthened 397s which has probably timed out.
The manufacturers will also be keen to fill emptying production lines.
Railway Gazette is normally a reliable source, but this one seems exotic to me in the current circumstances.
If this was a GBR-inspired procurement I would be more impressed.

TransPennine Express explores further fleet and capacity expansion options

UK: First TransPennine Express is hopeful that it will be able to issue a call for expressions of interest in the provision of additional bi-mode trains before the end of March.

www.railwaygazette.com

It's certainly not made-up - it was mentioned by TPE's MD on last Wednesday's Rail North Committee meeting (the relevant section starts at 59:32).

That doesn't necessarily mean an order will happen, of course, but it's more than a rumour.

 

[skyhigh]

It's also one of several speculative procurements that doesn't yet seem to have got a level of approval from DfT (Northern and LNER are others).

As I understand it DfT have approved the issuing of this expression of interest (same for the Northern one too)

 

[43096]

This from a company that has never deployed its existing fleet fully and currently has a lot of it sat idle.
It's also one of several speculative procurements that doesn't yet seem to have got a level of approval from DfT (Northern and LNER are others).
I imagine the full approval of the TRU project means they can have some confidence that Manchester-York will be wired in this decade.
They did of course have additional options for the 2015 franchise with CAF on more/lengthened 397s which has probably timed out.
The manufacturers will also be keen to fill emptying production lines.
Railway Gazette is normally a reliable source, but this one seems exotic to me in the current circumstances.
If this was a GBR-inspired procurement I would be more impressed.

TransPennine Express explores further fleet and capacity expansion options

UK: First TransPennine Express is hopeful that it will be able to issue a call for expressions of interest in the provision of additional bi-mode trains before the end of March.

www.railwaygazette.com

This is not being being done on a whim and is with the full knowledge and permission of the DfT - like everything else TOCs do nowadays.

 

[hexagon789]

In that case it makes 185s the obvious fleet to replace in order to cut down on the number of different train types.

There are a lot more 185s though.

There wouldn't be any efficiency through interworking of unit diagrams - when the timetable increases back to what it's due to be, pretty much all the turnarounds on TPE services will be roughly the ideal length (with the exception of the Redcar service, but that is in the process of being extended to Saltburn anyway).

There could, however, be some efficiency in terms of traincrew diagrams if you reduced the number of fleets. There's no depot that signs all the fleets, even for conductors. That said, route knowledge will ultimately still limit who can cover what - for example, whilst Liverpool could learn up to Preston or Carlisle, that would be a big task in terms of route learning even if you eliminated the issue of traction knowledge.

Some form of simplification was mentioned I might have got it wrong about diagram interworking but that was how I remembered it.

It's indeed not. Give or take those Northern stopping services that require a single 185, and give or take the cracking problems, it would be so much easier for TPE to operate a single type, and if they were going to do that that type would be the 802.

Indeed.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Almost all are at the moment (I'm talking December timetable figures here):

• 14 units on Redcar (7 circuits, doubled up)
• 12 units on Cleethorpes (6 circuits, doubled up)
• 10 units on Hull (5 circuits, doubled up)
• 4 units on Scarborough (2 circuits, doubled up)
• 4 units on Huddersfield stoppers

That's 44 units, plus then you have 4-6 maintenance units (varies by day), so just 1 spare in theory. In practice, the current emergency timetable has freed up a few units, and some circuits have been de-strengthened to allow for more training to happen. But there's not a great deal of slack in there.

While that might look like 24 x 802s + one spare to cover all the diagrams ( how does a single 5 car 802 compare to a pair of 185s in seating capacity? My Combined is at home... ), if we look at these probably additional 802s as a single fleet with the existing fleet and the maintenance cover in that, the numbers should work shouldn't they...?

 

[Watershed]

While that might look like 24 x 802s + one spare to cover all the diagrams ( how does a single 5 car 802 compare to a pair of 185s in seating capacity? My Combined is at home... ), if we look at these probably additional 802s as a single fleet with the existing fleet and the maintenance cover in that, the numbers should work shouldn't they...?

That's one way of looking at it, though by the time any follow-up order entered service, the figures might look quite different. Clearly you wouldn't have 802s on Huddersfield stoppers, but broadly speaking, 25 802s would be sufficient to replace 51 185s on a 1:2 ratio.

802s have slightly less seating capacity than a double 185, though if you eliminated the kitchen in the First coach (which is eminently surplus to requirements) and instead made that a composite coach, you could probably make them equal. You would gain the benefit of having a gangway throughout, leading to improved revenue protection and customer service - although those would be very minor considerations.

 

[hexagon789]

While that might look like 24 x 802s + one spare to cover all the diagrams ( how does a single 5 car 802 compare to a pair of 185s in seating capacity? My Combined is at home... ), if we look at these probably additional 802s as a single fleet with the existing fleet and the maintenance cover in that, the numbers should work shouldn't they...?

185 - 15F, 167S (double set - 30F, 334S)
802 - 24F, 318S

 

[swt_passenger]

185 - 15F, 167S (double set - 30F, 334S)
802 - 24F, 318S

That margin would quickly disappear if the “802 like” train didn’t have a kitchen. Unless of course there are already different 802 interior layouts

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can you post the full article???

Well you can get it via the link:

TransPennine Express explores further fleet and capacity expansion options

UK: First TransPennine Express is hopeful that it will be able to issue a call for expressions of interest in the provision of additional bi-mode trains before the end of March.

www.railwaygazette.com

UK: First TransPennine Express is hopeful that it will be able to issue a call for expressions of interest in the provision of additional bi-mode trains before the end of March. This follows ‘a healthy level of interest’ in its existing call for expressions of interest in the supply of bi-mode locomotives to replace the Class 68s which work with its MkVa coaches.

The additional EOI is expected to cover ‘existing or new bi-modes with an option for electric-only operation in the longer term’. Industry sources suggest that this could include trainsets with diesel power packs which could be removed at a later date, leaving the sets as electric-only, or with provision for modification to electric and battery operation.

TPE would be seeking at least 25 trainsets suitable for 200 km/h operation, with a minimum of five cars and options to extend to six or seven.

The provision of additional electric-only sets in the future may also be considered.

Noting that the EOI is a very early stage of the procurement process, and would require Department for Transport approval, one senior insider said that diesel-only power ‘is not an option’ and the EOI is expected to ask the supply industry to ‘tell us what you could provide and by when’.

The EOI is linked to the company’s preparations for the Transpennine Route Upgrade and what insiders call ‘a reshaping of the TPE fleet’ as further electrification and other infrastructure improvements are completed.

TPE continues to explore opportunities for new services in the north of England, and the move could also feed into government plans for the removal of older and more costly to operate diesel trains elsewhere on the network, should any rolling stock become surplus to requirements at TPE