TPE Replacement stock

[nuneatonmark]

I recently read somewhere that TPE were about to start the process to replace their current 185s which, I thought, were originally going to be replaced by the MK5s/68s? I can't find the article now. Can anyone confirm if this is imminent? Given that one of the issues with the MK5s/68s was that it meant a 'micro-fleet' at TPE, surely the best option would to order more 800 bi-modes?

 

[Geeves]

I know Chris likes to fire out things to see if his words get out for spotters to pick it up but he did say to me they are looking at replacing everything including the current 802 with one identical fleet of the latest generation "800", presumably that is the East Midlands version.

He also said the 185s will go to Northern and I don't know if he was serious, he's got a good poker face ha.

 

[sprinterguy]

I recently read somewhere that TPE were about to start the process to replace their current 185s which, I thought, were originally going to be replaced by the MK5s/68s? I can't find the article now. Can anyone confirm if this is imminent? Given that one of the issues with the MK5s/68s was that it meant a 'micro-fleet' at TPE, surely the best option would to order more 800 bi-modes?

They commenced the tendering process for stock to replace the 185s in 2023: 29 new 5/6-car trains to tie in with supposed electrification of the Huddersfield route.

The 'Nova' fleets - 802s as well as the mark 5 rakes - were only supposed to replace a portion of the 185 fleet: I believe it was 22 sets that were, optimistically, planned to go off lease.

 

[QSK19]

The cynic in me would comment that TPE have received enough new stock over the years!

If getting rid of the 185s is true, then EMR has introduced stock which is older than what TPE is getting rid of! (170s built in 1999-2002 and 360s in 2002-2003 versus 185s in 2005-2006).

Different set of circumstances, I know, but it just seems that some TOCs are getting lavished with shiny new stock on a seemingly constant basis versus others which get worn out mid-life stock which takes ages to get refurbished (810s aside, of course).

 

[nuneatonmark]

While I don't mind the 185s too much, although they are showing their age, the biggest problem on the Scarborough line is the number of 3 car diagrams, which are always very busy when I've used them. I don't know how many other services, like Hull, just get single 185s but 3 coaches seems inadequate for any TPE service. In addition they'll be long periods of diesel under the wires when the TP upgrade is complete.

 

[Chester1]

The cynic in me would comment that TPE have received enough new stock over the years!

If getting rid of the 185s is true, then EMR has introduced stock which is older than what TPE is getting rid of! (170s built in 1999-2002 and 360s in 2002-2003 versus 185s in 2005-2006).

Different set of circumstances, I know, but it just seems that some TOCs are getting lavished with shiny new stock on a seemingly constant basis versus others which get worn out mid-life stock which takes ages to get refurbished (810s aside, of course).

The Mark Vs left TPE (instead of the majority of the 185s) due to post covid cuts. The 397s and 802s were required to end very high levels of overcrowding. The new fleet is procurement will enable cascading of DMUs once the TRU work is complete. There isn’t much point in rebuilding the north TPE route as an electrified main line and then running 100mph DMUs on it. There is plenty of demand for DMUs on non electrified routes. EMR has had poor management on refurbishment but the units allocated to it have significantly improved in recent years.

 

[Russel]

I doubt the 185s would struggle to find a home.

 

[JonathanH]

I doubt the 185s would struggle to find a home.

They are renowned to be expensive to run, and heavy. The number of truly appropriate routes for them is limited, in contrast to the way in which 158s were able to be reallocated. For instance, put one on the Settle & Carlisle line and it loses more money than it does at the moment.

 

[xotGD]

The 185s could go to Chiltern to be reunited with the Mark 5a sets.

 

[778]

I recently read somewhere that TPE were about to start the process to replace their current 185s which, I thought, were originally going to be replaced by the MK5s/68s?

I thought that the 185s were going to Ireland and be regauged to 5 ft 3 in?

Could they replace the 158s/159s on the Waterloo - Exeter line?

 

[Russel]

They are renowned to be expensive to run, and heavy. The number of truly appropriate routes for them is limited, in contrast to the way in which 158s were able to be reallocated. For instance, put one on the Settle & Carlisle line and it loses more money than it does at the moment.

Even so, I doubt they will end up with no where to go.

 

[stevieinselby]

The cynic in me would comment that TPE have received enough new stock over the years!

If getting rid of the 185s is true, then EMR has introduced stock which is older than what TPE is getting rid of! (170s built in 1999-2002 and 360s in 2002-2003 versus 185s in 2005-2006).

Different set of circumstances, I know, but it just seems that some TOCs are getting lavished with shiny new stock on a seemingly constant basis versus others which get worn out mid-life stock which takes ages to get refurbished (810s aside, of course).

There are a couple of factors at play.

First, you put you money where the investment is going to pay the biggest dividends. TPX serves busy corridors and the trains are well-used – new trains on TPX will benefit far more passengers than new trains on provincial EMR services that have far lower ridership and are often on slow lines. There's an argument that rural lines that get trains cascaded in at 15–20 years old actually do better out of this arrangement by getting higher spec stock than they would get if they got new trains every 35 years built to a more minimal spec.

Second, the new stock TPX has had largely reflects when the context has changed. The Nova project was needed because the existing fleet was desperately overcrowded and it was about adding capacity, as well as making use of the newly-available bi-mode technology to get the most out of the electrified network and improve pathing on the ECML between York and Newcastle. Future upgrades are likewise about making the most of new electrification. These changes mean that the only way to effectively serve the route is with new-build trains designed for the job. Provincial EMR services, on the other hand, haven't seen any such changes. They remain bog standard rural lines that can be perfectly well served by any 2- or 3-car DMU, they don't need the benefit of bi-modes, they don't need extra capacity, they don't need anything faster.

I doubt the 185s would struggle to find a home.

They won't be the easiest trains to rehome – they're heavy and expensive to run, while they have good acceleration they are not allowed to make use of SP speeds and so may have a lower top speed on some routes than whatever they are replacing. They are designed and specced for a high-profile service, but without end gangways they are not ideal for routes that need more capacity than can be offered in 3 carriages, which will be most routes that merit a high-spec train!

 

[devonexpress]

I know Chris likes to fire out things to see if his words get out for spotters to pick it up but he did say to me they are looking at replacing everything including the current 802 with one identical fleet of the latest generation "800", presumably that is the East Midlands version.

He also said the 185s will go to Northern and I don't know if he was serious, he's got a good poker face ha.

It would be good if TPE got 810s and the 802s could go to GWR to bolster their fleet.

 

[Chester1]

They are renowned to be expensive to run, and heavy. The number of truly appropriate routes for them is limited, in contrast to the way in which 158s were able to be reallocated. For instance, put one on the Settle & Carlisle line and it loses more money than it does at the moment.

The number of truely appropriate routes doesn't matter. There will be a DMU shortage until the entire network is decarbonised. That means all DMUs including the 185s will run until they are life expired.

It would be good if TPE got 810s and the 802s could go to GWR to bolster their fleet.

Its unlikely because the business case for new stock seems to be based on electrification and the stock being procured will be electric. The tender size indicates the 802 will be staying with TPE. Battery EMUs will be sufficient if the Stalybridge - Huddersfield gap remains for several more years. If Hitachi wins the tender it would likely be based on 807 but with batteries and only five coaches.

 

[Andy1978]

Any word on the plan for the Nova 2s?

 

[Tremzinho]

It would be good if TPE got 810s and the 802s could go to GWR to bolster their fleet.

More chance of 897s, which could release the 802s for GWR, LNER or even XC.

Transpennine would likely prefer more 802s, but it seems unlikely given the reported price being quoted by Hitachi. So the 897 is the next best choice, as they’ll presumably be very similar to the 397s TPE already run.

 

[ainsworth74]

Okay, I know this is the speculate discussion section but could we at least try and maintain some semblance of order please?

This thread is about possible replacement of TPEs existing fleet so I'd expect to see discussion about that. The possible future home of displaced TPE stock (such as everyone's favourite the 185s) would be suitable for a different thread.

Thank you!

 

[TheGrew]

More chance of 897s, which could release the 802s for GWR, LNER or even XC.

Transpennine would likely prefer more 802s, but it seems unlikely given the reported price being quoted by Hitachi. So the 897 is the next best choice, as they’ll presumably be very similar to the 397s TPE already run.

If they did go for 897s I wonder if a swap could be done with the incoming LNER units to try to reduce micro-fleets for both LNER and TPE (with LNER standardising on Hitachi and TPE on CAF). I appreciate the 897s as they currently stand are 10-car units, but I wonder if they could be reformed into shorter units for TPE.

 

[Fokx]

The Mark Vs left TPE (instead of the majority of the 185s) due to post covid cuts.

That wasn't the reason they left the fleet.

Essentially they were the most problematic trains that TPE operated at the time and the priority post-covid 19 was a focus on simplifying operations and improving reliability. To put it into context, Once they moved over to the south route, only one journey was ever completed in its entirety in public service from Cleethorpes to Liverpool.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2025 ==

More chance of 897s, which could release the 802s for GWR, LNER or even XC.

Transpennine would likely prefer more 802s, but it seems unlikely given the reported price being quoted by Hitachi. So the 897 is the next best choice, as they’ll presumably be very similar to the 397s TPE already run.

Can't see it being 897's myself.
It's the type of train that TPE needs and wants, but the relationship with CAF is a little soured, particularly when it comes to sourcing replacement parts.

 

[Chester1]

That wasn't the reason they left the fleet.

Essentially they were the most problematic trains that TPE operated at the time and the priority post-covid 19 was a focus on simplifying operations and improving reliability. To put it into context, Once they moved over to the south route, only one journey was ever completed in its entirety in public service from Cleethorpes to Liverpool.

I am sure there were operational reasons for why they were the fleet chosen for removal but even keeping all 185s left a loss in seats compared with the pre covid plan. I would be hugely surprised if the corresponding reduction in costs wasn't a major factor in the DfT decision.

 

[Charlie978]

Do we know what length/no. of coaches TPE are looking at?

I thought that 4 car 100m long (to work as 8car 200m long where necessary) was rumoured a while back, but all seems to have gone quiet on that front.

 

[Chester1]

Post #3 states the tender is for 25 units of 5-6 car. 200m is too long for multiple stations served by TPE. Oxford Road is due for redevelopment but Manchester Airport would be a blocker. Limited platform options at Lime Street. Not sure about the likes of Newton Le Willows.

 

[Fokx]

Post #3 states the tender is for 25 units of 5-6 car. 200m is too long for multiple stations served by TPE. Oxford Road is due for redevelopment but Manchester Airport would be a blocker. Limited platform options at Lime Street. Not sure about the likes of Newton Le Willows.

The units are being specced with ASDO software so length is only an issue at terminal stations such as Liverpool and Airport as you've mentioned

Oxford Road and Newton for example won't pose problems

 

[Chester1]

The units are being specced with ASDO software so length is only an issue at terminal stations such as Liverpool and Airport as you've mentioned

Oxford Road and Newton for example won't pose problems

Isn’t the issue with ASDO at Oxford Road that longer trains foul the points? The redevelopment is due 2028/2029 so it hopefully won't be an issue. I might be wrong but aren't the platforms at Manchester Airport shorter than 200m? The tender spec would indicate units of between 115m (5 x 23m) and 156m (6 x 26m).

 

[rattyben]

“New trains for TransPennine Express are likely to deploy onto Hull-Manchester Piccadilly services and two of the four hourly trains planned through Manchester Victoria.”

“These stopping services switch from TPE back to Northern with the former suggesting they will also use the new stock that Northern is procuring”

“TPE made the revelation to a meeting of stakeholders in Manchester on January 30 as it unveiled its likely service pattern from 2027 onwards when work to remodel Huddersfield is complete. The company’s managers said the plan was not yet a done deal.”

“Nutton said the new trains were highly likely to be battery-electric stock, noting that it was difficult to buy diesel. The deal will include depots, stabling and maintenance, he added.”

“More overnight services between Piccadilly and Manchester Airport will be introduced in May 2026, giving an almost hourly service.

TPE is also strengthening the one current Airport to Redcar diagram that runs a single three-car Class 185 to make services consistently six cars.”

Source: Rail Magazine

TransPennine Express gives details on new train fleet and expected operations

Operator's stakeholder meeting provides details of what TPE plans to do with its new trains as Transpennine Route Upgrade is complete.

www.railmagazine.com

 

[D365]

“New trains for TransPennine Express are likely to deploy onto Hull-Manchester Piccadilly services and two of the four hourly trains planned through Manchester Victoria.”

“These stopping services switch from TPE back to Northern with the former suggesting they will also use the new stock that Northern is procuring”

Is this the 12 x 3 car EMUs from Northern’s Phase 1, Lot 1? The corresponding speculative thread is linked here.

 

[rattyben]

Is this the 12 x 3 car EMUs from Northern’s Phase 1, Lot 1? The corresponding speculative thread is linked here.

That bit I couldn’t work out what they meant so I am assuming that is the case.

 

[3RDGEN]

The Huddersfield - Leeds stoppers have already returned to Northern so once electrified those services and the Leeds - York services will go electric with the current plan being those 12 new EMU's. Not sure when Manchester - Huddersfield stoppers transfer to Northern but they are due to also use the new build EMU's.

 

[Mikey C]

The Mark Vs left TPE (instead of the majority of the 185s) due to post covid cuts. The 397s and 802s were required to end very high levels of overcrowding. The new fleet is procurement will enable cascading of DMUs once the TRU work is complete. There isn’t much point in rebuilding the north TPE route as an electrified main line and then running 100mph DMUs on it. There is plenty of demand for DMUs on non electrified routes. EMR has had poor management on refurbishment but the units allocated to it have significantly improved in recent years.

Wasn't the whole point of the (slightly bizarre) order for the Mark 5s, that the Class 68 could be easily replaced with an electric loco once more electrification happened? Rather than TPE ordering yet another class of train...which presumably should be called Nova 4

 

[Chester1]

Wasn't the whole point of the (slightly bizarre) order for the Mark 5s, that the Class 68 could be easily replaced with an electric loco once more electrification happened? Rather than TPE ordering yet another class of train...which presumably should be called Nova 4

That was a benefit but I think it was mainly due to Hitachi not having sufficient spare capacity at Newton Aycliffe to build an extra 12 sets. With hindsight ordering them was a big mistake and I would bet that Chiltern will have difficulties operating them.