TPE Mk5/68 sets.

[sjpowermac]

I wouldn’t count on that being factual, I’d certainly not place a bet on it.

It doesn’t align to the current crew knowledge of the route on the western end. For route retention purposes, there is a requirement for Airport - Saltburn services to be operated by 185’s for the benefit of Manchester Piccadilly and Liverpool crew. (albeit admittedly not necessarily all of the diagrams).


Exactly what I’ve heard, albeit it one on the North and one on the South.

Agree about Saltburn not happening.

Info below just from what’s on Real Time Trains, so not necessarily complete or accurate at this stage.

As I understand it 6 North Route diagrams from May on the Scarborough line, with one Class 185 turn. Quite a few detailed differences but broadly Scarborough-York alternating with Scarborough-Manchester Piccadilly.

2 diagrams ex-Longsight starting with
1U23 0535 Manchester Piccadilly-Scarborough
1U29 0624 Manchester Piccadilly-York (then ecs to Scarborough TMD)

Both running via Diggle rather than Calder Valley/Wakefield Kirkgate. As per the conversation with @driverd, at least running via Diggle with the 68s will give a better chance of getting them on to the Scarborough branch, rather than sitting on Longsight due to a driver not signing one of Calder Valley/Wakefield Kirkgate/Castleford.

I don’t work in the industry, just an average Joe trainspotter, so take with a pinch of salt!

I believe the intended circuits start of day/maintenance/end of day are:
Day 1
Longsight>Scarborough TMD>Scarborough

Day 2
Scarborough>Scarborough

Day 3
Scarborough>Longsight

Day 4
Longsight>Scarborough TMD

Day 5
Scarborough TMD>Scarborough

Day 6
Scarborough>Longsight

The Class 185 diagram starts with 1P05 0242 Manchester Piccadilly-York. One of the 68s sits on Scarborough TMD most of the day, presumably it could be used as cover in the event 1P05 doesn’t run.

As mentioned, worked out solely from RTT. Naturally, Longsight-Piccadilly paths might easily change to being Ardwick-Piccadilly plus there could easily be something I’ve overlooked. We shall see I guess

 

[IslandLine101]

4 sets out today, and notably 2/3 daytime Scarbrough - Man Pic diagrams are 68s. An improvement for sure

 

[61653 HTAFC]

68025 was pushing 1U39 this morning, seen crossing Dewsbury viaduct as I came out of Lidl (At about 1030, running 14 late).

It would seem that rumours of their demise were greatly exaggerated!

There was an amusing anomaly on RTT though, as it was apparently in two places at once and approaching both Deighton and Dewsbury at the same time!

Out of curiosity, when did the Scarboroughs start calling at Dewsbury again? It used to be the Teessides for the last few years.

 

[aem7ac]

Did anyone get the May issue of Rail Express? I believe it mentions the new planned workings or just future plans for this fleet in general.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

Did anyone get the May issue of Rail Express? I believe it mentions the new planned workings or just future plans for this fleet in general.

Just read it after reading you post. Yes it does talk about the future but what beggars belief is the incompetence of TPE in not getting to grips with them since their ‘planned’ introduction. I think the word planned is wrong as TPE messed the introduction of all 3 nova fleets. They hope to get to the stage of having 11 out of 13 sets in daily use! Managing 4 or so at the moment! Also talk about longer trains!

 

[sjpowermac]

Just read it after reading you post. Yes it does talk about the future but what beggars belief is the incompetence of TPE in not getting to grips with them since their ‘planned’ introduction. I think the word planned is wrong as TPE messed the introduction of all 3 nova fleets. They hope to get to the stage of having 11 out of 13 sets in daily use! Managing 4 or so at the moment! Also talk about longer trains!

The article is certainly a very strange piece of ‘journalism’ with very few ‘why’ questions asked.

Using Class 67s in place of Class 68s, on what planet is that a remotely sensible option, given all the loco/stock interface problems there have been with the existing set up? Ditto the proposed 7 coach rakes.

 

[VauxhallNova]

The article is certainly a very strange piece of ‘journalism’ with very few ‘why’ questions asked.

I thought the same. Perhaps the "why" is commercially sensitive, or wouldn't reflect well on TPE?

 

[sjpowermac]

I thought the same. Perhaps the "why" is commercially sensitive, or wouldn't reflect well on TPE?

Yes, agreed.

That said, an odd gently probing question wouldn’t have gone amiss, otherwise it just turns into a TPE press release/advertorial.

A question such as:

“With more drivers than originally planned already trained on the Nova 3 sets and many having little work on them, how can you claim staff training as a reason for not having more sets in traffic?”

might not have gone down well.

But, maybe at least a question such as:

“It’s interesting you mention Class 67s, wouldn’t that entail starting again with the challenges of the loco/stock interface?”

might have shown a bit more effort and allowed for some technical insights…

 

[VauxhallNova]

With more drivers than originally planned already trained on the Nova 3 sets and many having little work on them, how can you claim staff training as a reason for not having more sets in traffic?

Exactly, consistent with the stories from TPE staff about the company attempting to avoid using the fleet at all, to simplify driver training requirements amongst other cost saving reasons.

Some believe the company to have tried desperately hard to introduce these trains in a timely fashion, and (even if you did believe it) you would have to say they have completely failed.

 

[JonathanH]

Some believe the company to have tried desperately hard to introduce these trains in a timely fashion, and (even if you did believe it) you would have to say they have completely failed.

Why haven't they just pulled the plug then? How far was the lease extended when it was renewed from 1 April 2023?

 

[VauxhallNova]

May 2024, as stated here:

"TPE intend to award a Lease Agreement extension with Nuclear Transport Solutions (NTS) for the Class 68 Locomotives, the current Lease Agreement expires in May 2023 and it is intended to extend the lease until May 2024."

Extension of Lease Agreement With Nuclear Transport Solutions (NTS) for the Class 68 Locomotives Already Operated… [Award]

The Contracting Authority intends to extend the Lease Agreement with Nuclear Transport Solutions (NT... A Contract Award Notice by First Transpennine Express.

bidstats.uk

In contrast to the 185s, where it runs to 2028 or 2031

"TPE intend to award a lease extension with Eversholt Rail Limited for the Class 185 rolling stock.

The current lease expires in May 2023 and it is intended to extend the lease until May 2028 with a with a further 4 year option until May 2031 or an option to extend the lease from May 2023 to May 2031."

Extension of Rolling Stock Lease With Eversholt Rail Limited for Class 185 Vehicles That Are Already… [Award]

In preparation for an award of a National Rail Contract from the Department for Transport to Transpe... A Contract Award Notice by First Transpennine Express.

bidstats.uk

 

[HamworthyGoods]

May 2024, as stated here:

"TPE intend to award a Lease Agreement extension with Nuclear Transport Solutions (NTS) for the Class 68 Locomotives, the current Lease Agreement expires in May 2023 and it is intended to extend the lease until May 2024."

Extension of Lease Agreement With Nuclear Transport Solutions (NTS) for the Class 68 Locomotives Already Operated… [Award]

The Contracting Authority intends to extend the Lease Agreement with Nuclear Transport Solutions (NT... A Contract Award Notice by First Transpennine Express.

bidstats.uk

In contrast to the 185s, where it runs to 2028 or 2031

"TPE intend to award a lease extension with Eversholt Rail Limited for the Class 185 rolling stock.

The current lease expires in May 2023 and it is intended to extend the lease until May 2028 with a with a further 4 year option until May 2031 or an option to extend the lease from May 2023 to May 2031."

Extension of Rolling Stock Lease With Eversholt Rail Limited for Class 185 Vehicles That Are Already… [Award]

In preparation for an award of a National Rail Contract from the Department for Transport to Transpe... A Contract Award Notice by First Transpennine Express.

bidstats.uk

Good to see common sense prevail and not off lease the 185s from TPE which are amongst some of the most versatile trains they have.

 

[MattRat]

May 2024, as stated here:

"TPE intend to award a Lease Agreement extension with Nuclear Transport Solutions (NTS) for the Class 68 Locomotives, the current Lease Agreement expires in May 2023 and it is intended to extend the lease until May 2024."

Extension of Lease Agreement With Nuclear Transport Solutions (NTS) for the Class 68 Locomotives Already Operated… [Award]

The Contracting Authority intends to extend the Lease Agreement with Nuclear Transport Solutions (NT... A Contract Award Notice by First Transpennine Express.

bidstats.uk

In contrast to the 185s, where it runs to 2028 or 2031

"TPE intend to award a lease extension with Eversholt Rail Limited for the Class 185 rolling stock.

The current lease expires in May 2023 and it is intended to extend the lease until May 2028 with a with a further 4 year option until May 2031 or an option to extend the lease from May 2023 to May 2031."

Extension of Rolling Stock Lease With Eversholt Rail Limited for Class 185 Vehicles That Are Already… [Award]

In preparation for an award of a National Rail Contract from the Department for Transport to Transpe... A Contract Award Notice by First Transpennine Express.

bidstats.uk

Since the DFT is in cost cutting mode, I wonder if they may look at that and think the 68s would be worth cutting, instead of extending the contract a single year.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

"TPE intend to award a Lease Agreement extension with Nuclear Transport Solutions (NTS) for the Class 68 Locomotives, the current Lease Agreement expires in May 2023 and it is intended to extend the lease until May 2024."

Great. Now do they plan on actually using them?

 

[sjpowermac]

Since the DFT is in cost cutting mode, I wonder if they may look at that and think the 68s would be worth cutting, instead of extending the contract a single year.

That doesn’t seem likely since the status of the tender says “awarded”. So, the Class 68s are now being leased to TPE until May 2024.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Using Class 67s in place of Class 68s, on what planet is that a remotely sensible option, given all the loco/stock interface problems there have been with the existing set up? Ditto the proposed 7 coach rakes.

If they manage to persuade everyone to let them transfer them to TfW....

 

[CJ]

Spotted a Class 68+Mk5 set on the Cleethorpes - Liverpool route few days ago on Thursday when I was on my way home from Manchester.

Looking back on RTT, it was 68029 (set TP04).

Good to see them in action on this line.

 

[humbersidejim]

Spotted a Class 68+Mk5 set on the Cleethorpes - Liverpool route few days ago on Thursday when I was on my home from Manchester.

Looking back on RTT, it was 68029 (set TP04).

Good to see them in action on this line.

Frankly, it’s good to see anything at all running all the way from Cleethorpes to Liverpool.

Is there now enough space at Cleethorpes to stable 68/mk5 rakes overnight? I understand this was an issue in the past.

 

[sjpowermac]

Frankly, it’s good to see anything at all running all the way from Cleethorpes to Liverpool.

Is there now enough space at Cleethorpes to stable 68/mk5 rakes overnight? I understand this was an issue in the past.

As I understand it, the plan currently is to eventually have four diagrams on the south route.

The Class 68/Mk5A South Route sets will stable:
2 at Doncaster Europort
2 at Longsight

On occasions sets have stabled at Cleethorpes, but that has tended to be when they have been on Cleethorpes-Doncaster crew training/refresher runs.

I don’t think there’s an intention to stable overnight at Cleethorpes on a regular basis.

Hope that helps

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2023 ==

If they manage to persuade everyone to let them transfer them to TfW....

Yes indeed. Though the article did mention 125 mph running

 

[humbersidejim]

As I understand it, the plan currently is to eventually have four diagrams on the south route.

The Class 68/Mk5A South Route sets will stable:
2 at Doncaster Europort
2 at Longsight

On occasions sets have stabled at Cleethorpes, but that has tended to be when they have been on Cleethorpes-Doncaster crew training/refresher runs.

I don’t think there’s an intention to stable overnight at Cleethorpes on a regular basis.

Hope that helps

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2023 ==


Yes indeed. Though the article did mention 125 mph running

Thank you for this.

Those stabling locations sound much more sensible, and hopefully will impact fewer local residents than they did/do at Scarborough

 

[daodao]

As I understand it, the plan currently is to eventually have four diagrams on the south route.

That is only sufficient to provide a 2 hourly rather than hourly service. Is that the intention for the longer-term? IMO, it would be better to run an hourly 3 coach standard class only dmu rather than use the longer problematic class 68/Mk5 coach trains on a 2 hourly pattern.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That is only sufficient to provide a 2 hourly rather than hourly service. Is that the intention for the longer-term? IMO, it would be better to run an hourly 3 coach standard class only dmu rather than use the longer problematic class 68/Mk5 coach trains on a 2 hourly pattern.

Occurs to me that if alternate services are 68+Mk5 operated on both North TPE and South TPE with the rest operated by 185s then at least there is some resilience for both routes.

But how unreliable are the 68+Mk5s ? - do they just need use rater than getting damp stuck in sidings.

 

[Killingworth]

As I understand it, the plan currently is to eventually have four diagrams on the south route.

The Class 68/Mk5A South Route sets will stable:
2 at Doncaster Europort
2 at Longsight

On occasions sets have stabled at Cleethorpes, but that has tended to be when they have been on Cleethorpes-Doncaster crew training/refresher runs.

I don’t think there’s an intention to stable overnight at Cleethorpes on a regular basis.

Hope that helps

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2023 ==


Yes indeed. Though the article did mention 125 mph running

I understand no Sheffield drivers have been trained on 68s so that limits full deployment.

 

[L+Y]

But how unreliable are the 68+Mk5s ? - do they just need use rater than getting damp stuck in sidings.

My impression speaking as a complete bystander is that there's not really much wrong with the trains themselves - it's all an issue with TPE's rostering issues?

 

[VauxhallNova]

You can imagine how a commercially minded company may try and blame the former, despite the latter being true.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If anyone's interested, 68033 was out today on 1U60- Seen here passing Lady Anne Crossing at Batley:

 

[Neptune]

1U60 has been fairly solidly 68 hauled over the past few weeks. Rarely cancelled these days and only occasionally dropping a single 185.

 

[sjpowermac]

That is only sufficient to provide a 2 hourly rather than hourly service. Is that the intention for the longer-term? IMO, it would be better to run an hourly 3 coach standard class only dmu rather than use the longer problematic class 68/Mk5 coach trains on a 2 hourly pattern.

I should have been clearer: that’s an ultimate aim of four Class 68/Mk5A diagrams with Class 185s on the other services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2023 ==

I understand no Sheffield drivers have been trained on 68s so that limits full deployment.

As I understand it four diagrams as mentioned is the ultimate aim, but who really knows, there have been so many plans that have come and gone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2023 ==

Thank you for this.

Those stabling locations sound much more sensible, and hopefully will impact fewer local residents than they did/do at Scarborough

No problem and I completely agree with regard to stabling. I guess over the course of the next 12 months we will see how the plan works out.

 

[Snow1964]

Bidstats has a notice of extension to class 68 maintenance contract ahead of award of contract to TPE

Extension of Maintenance With Direct Rail Services Limited for Class 68 Vehicles That Are Already Operated… [Award]

In preparation for an award of a National Rail Contract from the Department for Transport to Transpe... A Contract Award Notice by First Transpennine Express.

bidstats.uk

And one for the mark 5a sets servicing at Scarborough

Extension of Servicing and Light Maintenance With Arriva UK Trains Limited for Class 68 and Mk5A… [Award]

In preparation for an award of a National Rail Contract from the Department for Transport to Transpe... A Contract Award Notice by First Transpennine Express.

bidstats.uk

Both are shown as awarded status

 

[Geeves]

That is interesting that the depot at Scarborough is being run by Arriva. Transpennine Express by Arriva anyone