TPE Mk5/68 sets.

[Nym]

My concern is more regarding the lack of ingress protection on the back of the LPA receptacle and the lack of mechanical protection for the cable loom.

Appears to be a product of the mantre withing engineers in the industry of LPA good Harting bad…

Where one could have drop in replaced the HMC with a more resilient hood and housing without the need for retermination and retained the mechanical and ingress protection for the loom with much less work

 

[sjpowermac]

My concern is more regarding the lack of ingress protection on the back of the LPA receptacle and the lack of mechanical protection for the cable loom.

Appears to be a product of the mantre withing engineers in the industry of LPA good Harting bad…

Where one could have drop in replaced the HMC with a more resilient hood and housing without the need for retermination and retained the mechanical and ingress protection for the loom with much less work

I wouldn’t claim to be an expert on connectors, but chosen solution has solved the problem.

The arrangement with the LPA connector looks vastly superior to the Harting connector and this has been the experience in service.

Do you have a photo to hand of your proposal?

 

[Nym]

I wouldn’t claim to be an expert on connectors, but chosen solution has solved the problem.

The arrangement with the LPA connector looks vastly superior to the Harting connector and this has been the experience in service.

Do you have a photo to hand of your proposal?

I don't have any photos to hand, but the drop in solution that would likely not need any electrical retermination is the "Han HPR Single Locking Lever".

On this there seems to be a misconception that the product is bad, where in fact, it's the incorrect product was selected by CAF.

 

[sjpowermac]

I don't have any photos to hand, but the drop in solution that would likely not need any electrical retermination is the "Han HPR Single Locking Lever".

On this there seems to be a misconception that the product is bad, where in fact, it's the incorrect product was selected by CAF.

Perhaps you could link to the product you are suggesting, I’m afraid I wasn’t able to find it on the Harting website.

You’ve mentioned ‘the Harting solution would likely not need any electrical retermination’ but you can’t be certain of this.

The problem with the original arrangement was both with water/dirt ingress and on occasions with connector pins getting damaged.

As previously mentioned, the chosen solution has solved the problem, so I’m really struggling to work out why you are so against it.

Here’s a picture for you of the original arrangement. I don’t think it takes that much to spot where the problems were with connecting that on a depot on a dark rainy night.

 

[Nym]

Perhaps you could link to the product you are suggesting, I’m afraid I wasn’t able to find it on the Harting website.

You’ve mentioned ‘the Harting solution would likely not need any electrical retermination’ but you can’t be certain of this.

The problem with the original arrangement was both with water/dirt ingress and on occasions with connector pins getting damaged.

As previously mentioned, the chosen solution has solved the problem, so I’m really struggling to work out why you are so against it.

Here’s a picture for you of the original arrangement. I don’t think it takes that much to spot where the problems were with connecting that on a depot on a dark rainy night.

To find these on the Harting website, go to the product selector, select the size as 24 HPR, then select "Central Locking Lever".

I can be certain of the fact it would be very unlikely to require re-termination from the many years I have spent doing mods including LPA, AB, Amphenol, Plessey, Harting, HTS, Pyle International, GEC, Provertha, ITT Cannon, and several other brands of multipole connectors. As you've now shown, it's three quintax contacts and a Han DD42 Quad insert, these will all thread through an M40 hole, and if not, the Han D's can be de-pinned with a simple tool (or indeed a cocktail straw held in the right manner) and then the fully terminated and assembled quintaxes will thread through an M25 hole.

Water/Dirt ingress will very likely be because the "Han HMC" hood and housing selected is not sufficiently IP rated, combined with what I suspect to be operator error in closing the covers properly (something that is also required on LPA connectors as well by the way to avoid the E Clips that retain the cover castings from being displaced). Since it appears to be the IP65 version of the Han B hood/housing, maybe the HMC version, but it does not include the additional gaskets, and even if it indeed did, this would still need the hinged cover to be properly closed.

As I have said twice now, the cables entering the unit are unprotected, and there does not appear to be any form of ingress protection on a TOP cable entry. To make this work needs a lot of "additonal work" in the assembly of the LPA parts, which means it works more by luck and mountains of sikaflex than by judgment.

I am not saying that the use of an LPA connector is the wrong solution, merely that the way that this has been implemented is flawed.

EDIT:
Ignore most of the above, just looked at the higher res photo in this post;

Close-up pics of the Harting connector (grey) and LPA connector (orange) for reference.

And it's an earth bond that I saw on the other image, not unprotected cable.

The points regarding retermination remain valid.

 

[sjpowermac]

To find these on the Harting website, go to the product selector, select the size as 24 HPR, then select "Central Locking Lever".

I can be certain of the fact it would be very unlikely to require re-termination from the many years I have spent doing mods including LPA, AB, Amphenol, Plessey, Harting, HTS, Pyle International, GEC, Provertha, ITT Cannon, and several other brands of multipole connectors. As you've now shown, it's three quintax contacts and a Han DD42 Quad insert, these will all thread through an M40 hole, and if not, the Han D's can be de-pinned with a simple tool (or indeed a cocktail straw held in the right manner) and then the fully terminated and assembled quintaxes will thread through an M25 hole.

Water/Dirt ingress will very likely be because the "Han HMC" hood and housing selected is not sufficiently IP rated, combined with what I suspect to be operator error in closing the covers properly (something that is also required on LPA connectors as well by the way to avoid the E Clips that retain the cover castings from being displaced). Since it appears to be the IP65 version of the Han B hood/housing, maybe the HMC version, but it does not include the additional gaskets, and even if it indeed did, this would still need the hinged cover to be properly closed.

As I have said twice now, the cables entering the unit are unprotected, and there does not appear to be any form of ingress protection on a TOP cable entry. To make this work needs a lot of "additonal work" in the assembly of the LPA parts, which means it works more by luck and mountains of sikaflex than by judgment.

I am not saying that the use of an LPA connector is the wrong solution, merely that the way that this has been implemented is flawed.

EDIT:
Ignore most of the above, just looked at the higher res photo in this post;

And it's an earth bond that I saw on the other image, not unprotected cable.

The points regarding retermination remain valid.

I tried the exact search that you suggested and there were ten different matching products. I’m not an engineer, but none of the products looked significantly more substantial than the original.

I’ve no doubt at all that your detailed description of retermination work is spot on, but I think in general you are missing the bigger picture.

I think it’s entirely understandable that the project engineer would choose a different manufacturer given the poor experience with the original connector (and I’ve no doubt that you are correct it was poorly specified).

As I understand it, LPA offered a bespoke solution, rather ‘have a look in the catalogue and choose something a bit higher spec off the shelf’.

The modifications were carried out at Wolverton works commencing in March 2022 and all the TPE locomotives were completed by June 2022. As I understand it, there have been zero failures in traffic since then due to loco-stock comms faults.

 

[E27007]

Class 68 countdown; Wednesday had 68032 work the 0542 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes, the next leg of the diagram, the 1524 Cleethorpes to Liverpool lost the 68 for a 185 set, Thursday (today) has the diagram covered by 185 stock morning and afternoon..
We await the 28th, will we have the "Grand Finale" of a Class 68 on the South Route, 1524 Cleethorpes to Liverpool, or has the diagram simply slipped to 185 anonymity ?

 

[CAF397]

Well if 68032 didn't return on Wednesday, and it was a 185 today, then that set is still in Cleethorpes.

It makes it very unlikely that the morning 0542 off Manchester Airport will be a 68, but highly likely that the 1524 off Cleethorpes will see 68032 head back to Manchester (via Liverpool).

 

[E27007]

Well if 68032 didn't return on Wednesday, and it was a 185 today, then that set is still in Cleethorpes.

It makes it very unlikely that the morning 0542 off Manchester Airport will be a 68, but highly likely that the 1524 off Cleethorpes will see 68032 head back to Manchester (via Liverpool).

A Grand Finale of the 1524 to Liverpool with an enthusiastic driver up-front, that is our daydream

 

[D6130]

A Grand Finale of the 1524 to Liverpool with an enthusiastic driver up-front, that is our daydream

Hell Fire! Dreadful! My Lords!....and other such dated 1970s exclamations.

 

[E27007]

Hell Fire! Dreadful! My Lords!....and other such dated 1970s exclamations.

1) 68032 wears the nameplate "The Destroyer", is there a real ale named Destroyer?
2) rumours are 68032 and TP set are for storage at Cleethorpes and will not work the 1524 on Friday ( hoping the rumours are wrong)
3) my favoured rumour is a basher in TP Control, has purposely positioned 68032 at Cleethorpes ready for the 1524 on Friday, a Friday turn which will not be substituted by a 185, there will be a non-negotiable reason to recover 68032 back to Longsight on the 1524.

 

[JonathanH]

storage at Cleethorpes

That seems unlikely. What benefit would there be from storing them at an unsecure location?

 

[D6130]

That seems unlikely. What benefit would there be from storing them at an unsecure location?

....and with the potential for the moist, salty sea air to cause rapid and expensive - possibly terminal - damage.

 

[E27007]

....and with the potential for the moist, salty sea air to cause rapid and expensive - possibly terminal - damage.

Five sets are stored in a few locations, I doubt the concerns of potential deterioration are a factor inthe choice , apparently Longsight is short of spare capacity for stock.
The diagram for 0543 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes is working with 185142 this morning, many haulage parliamentarians will be debating the 1542 leg from Cleethorpes today

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Five sets are stored in a few locations, I doubt the concerns of potential deterioration are a factor inthe choice , apparently Longsight is short of spare capacity for stock.
The diagram for 0543 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes is working with 185142 this morning, many haulage parliamentarians will be debating the 1542 leg from Cleethorpes today

1524.

 

[LowLevel]

68032 appears to be allocated the 1524 from Cleethorpes.

 

[E27007]

68032 appears to be allocated the 1524 from Cleethorpes.

68032 is working the final Cleethorpes to Liverpool class 68 diagram

 

[CAF397]

In a twist, 68032 is working the 1919 Liverpool to Cleethorpes (as far as Manchester Piccadilly).

 

[Grumpy]

In a twist, 68032 is working the 1919 Liverpool to Cleethorpes (as far as Manchester Piccadilly).

It was in Scarbados on Tuesday midday, working from/to Manchester.
The loco was at the eastern end of the train, against the buffers on platform 3 i.e. deep inside the trainshed.
Naturally the loco engine was left running all the time and the trainshed stank like a 1960's DMU servicing shed.
There is currently thick plastic sheeting under the roof (I believe the roof is under repair) and this may have helped keep the fumes in. It certainly had acoustic effects- the loco could hardly be heard outside the station.

 

[E27007]

In a twist, 68032 is working the 1919 Liverpool to Cleethorpes (as far as Manchester Piccadilly).

Then departed ECS to Longsight depot, the 185 set from Cleethorpes to Liverpool was terminated at Doncaster, and quickly turned back to work to Cleethorpes departing Doncaster at 2143 hours

 

[43102EMR]

So I’m guessing now any Nova 3s not in for crack repairs will solely be on the Scarborough runs?

 

[Peter Sarf]

So I’m guessing now any Nova 3s not in for crack repairs will solely be on the Scarborough runs?

Begs the question - How many sets are in for crack repairs ?.
I think up to 5 sets are needed for Scarborough runs so that leaves 8 or more spare so some repaired sets might well be out of use from day to day as well.
Does anyone know where the stored/un-repaired/serviceable /etc TPE Mk5 sets are kept these days - I feel out of date ?.

 

[E27007]

Begs the question - How many sets are in for crack repairs ?.
I think up to 5 sets are needed for Scarborough runs so that leaves 8 or more spare so some repaired sets might well be out of use from day to day as well.
Does anyone know where the stored/un-repaired/serviceable /etc TPE Mk5 sets are kept these days - I feel out of date ?.

I have not seen them, but I'm told 4 sets are at Crewe and 1 set at Belmont Doncaster, the informant does not know if those sets are stored due to crack defects

 

[170UTD]

I have not seen them, but I'm told 4 sets are at Crewe and 1 set at Belmont Doncaster, the informant does not know if those sets are stored due to crack defects

68019 and its accompanying set are due to be recovered to Longsight tomorrow

Realtime Trains | 5Q32 1041 Doncaster Ept (F'liners) to Longsight T.M.D. (D) | 30/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q32 1041 departure from Doncaster Ept (F'liners) to Longsight T.M.D. (D) on 30/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[43102EMR]

Begs the question - How many sets are in for crack repairs ?.
I think up to 5 sets are needed for Scarborough runs so that leaves 8 or more spare so some repaired sets might well be out of use from day to day as well.
Does anyone know where the stored/un-repaired/serviceable /etc TPE Mk5 sets are kept these days - I feel out of date ?.

Many thanks - with that many left spare, honestly is a shame they’ve been withdrawn from the South route. When they ran, they seemed very much at home there

 

[Peter Sarf]

68019 and its accompanying set are due to be recovered to Longsight tomorrow

Realtime Trains | 5Q32 1041 Doncaster Ept (F'liners) to Longsight T.M.D. (D) | 30/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q32 1041 departure from Doncaster Ept (F'liners) to Longsight T.M.D. (D) on 30/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That will be the maintenance/spare set for the Cleethorpes servie.

Many thanks - with that many left spare, honestly is a shame they’ve been withdrawn from the South route. When they ran, they seemed very much at home there

TPE seemed to have gone to a lot of effort to get crews trained for the South Route. Service use started and then after going to DfT control has now come to nought !.

 

[sjpowermac]

I have not seen them, but I'm told 4 sets are at Crewe and 1 set at Belmont Doncaster, the informant does not know if those sets are stored due to crack defects

As of 1000 on 31.07.2023
68019/TP06* Doncaster Europort
68020/TP02 Scarborough TMD
68021/TP05* Longsight
68022/TP08 Scarborough allox 1248 SCA-YRK
68023 Crewe Gresty Bridge
68024/TP10 Scarborough
68025/TP07* Crewe South Yard
68026/TP01* Longsight
68027/TP12 Scarborough TMD
68028/TP09 Longsight
68029/TP04 Longsight
68030/TP11 Longsight
68031/TP03 1U40 0948 SCA-YRK
68032/TP13 Longsight allox 1135 MAN-SCA

MAN=Manchester Piccadilly
SCA=Scarborough
YRK=York

*The only sets that have not been used in service since the discovery of cracks have been TP01/TP05 (out of service awaiting repairs), plus TP06 (awaiting recovery from Doncaster Europort) and TP07 (awaiting recovery from Crewe South Yard).

A set is due to move today on:
5Q16 Longsight-Gascoigne Wood to free up space at Longsight to bring the sets back from Doncaster/Crewe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2023 ==

Begs the question - How many sets are in for crack repairs ?.
I think up to 5 sets are needed for Scarborough runs so that leaves 8 or more spare so some repaired sets might well be out of use from day to day as well.
Does anyone know where the stored/un-repaired/serviceable /etc TPE Mk5 sets are kept these days - I feel out of date ?.

I hope the list above helps.

 

[Greybeard33]

As of 1000 on 31.07.2023
68019/TP06* Doncaster Europort
68020/TP02 Scarborough TMD
68021/TP05* Longsight
68022/TP08 Scarborough allox 1248 SCA-YRK
68023 Crewe Gresty Bridge
68024/TP10 Scarborough
68025/TP07* Crewe South Yard
68026/TP01* Longsight
68027/TP12 Scarborough TMD
68028/TP09 Longsight
68029/TP04 Longsight
68030/TP11 Longsight
68031/TP03 1U40 0948 SCA-YRK
68032/TP13 Longsight allox 1135 MAN-SCA

MAN=Manchester Piccadilly
SCA=Scarborough
YRK=York

*The only sets that have not been used in service since the discovery of cracks have been TP01/TP05 (out of service awaiting repairs), plus TP09 (awaiting recovery from Doncaster Europort) and TP07 (awaiting recovery from Crewe South Yard).

A set is due to move today on:
5Q16 Longsight-Gascoigne Wood to free up space at Longsight to bring the sets back from Doncaster/Crewe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2023 ==


I hope the list above helps.

Might this move, currently in progress, be recovery of TP07 from Crewe?

Realtime Trains | 5Q33 1131 Crewe South Yard to Longsight Car. M.D. | 31/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q33 1131 departure from Crewe South Yard to Longsight Car. M.D. on 31/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

There was another STP path this morning, which was not activated, from Gascoigne Wood to Longsight. Any idea what this was for?

Realtime Trains | 5Q32 0916 Gascoigne Wood Sidings to Longsight T.M.D. (D) | 31/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q32 0916 departure from Gascoigne Wood Sidings to Longsight T.M.D. (D) on 31/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Edit: 5Q32 cancelled "due to an excluded reason (PL)". It appears 5Q16 is not running today either.

 

[sjpowermac]

Might this move, currently in progress, be recovery of TP07 from Crewe?

Realtime Trains | 5Q33 1131 Crewe South Yard to Longsight Car. M.D. | 31/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q33 1131 departure from Crewe South Yard to Longsight Car. M.D. on 31/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

There was another STP path this morning, which was not activated, from Gascoigne Wood to Longsight. Any idea what this was for?

Realtime Trains | 5Q32 0916 Gascoigne Wood Sidings to Longsight T.M.D. (D) | 31/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q32 0916 departure from Gascoigne Wood Sidings to Longsight T.M.D. (D) on 31/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Edit: 5Q32 cancelled "due to an excluded reason (PL)". It appears 5Q16 is not running today either.

I think there’s a maximum capacity of seven Class 68/Mk5A sets at Longsight. At the moment, empty stock workings are very hit and miss, I suppose according to what lands at Longsight from service trains.

Yes, I believe the working from Crewe South Yard to Longsight was 68025/TP07.