TPE franchise awarded to First

[ainsworth74]

I wonder if the recent platform extension of platform 2 at Redcar Central could accommodate this. Often when delayed trains are terminated at Redcar they use platform 2 and reverse out, as a facility does exist for train to switch to the westbound line on departure. This could save another half hour off going all the way to Saltburn.

And if you're going to Redcar to reverse seeing as you're there anyway maybe you could open the doors...

 

[Starmill]

And if you're going to Redcar to reverse seeing as you're there anyway maybe you could open the doors...

If they can get the servicing team on to clean from York or somewhere (admittedly this would require diagramming a cleaning crew carefully, and it may be rather wasteful to have them on YRK > MBR > YRK) they could try a 'hot turnaround' of 10 minutes in the platform at Middlesbrough? Can it spare that long? Do GR currently do anything but new reservations (which an 800 ought not to need doing), litter pick and stock the loos at turnarounds? There's adding water but that won't be happening at Middlesbrough.

 

[pennine]

And if you're going to Redcar to reverse seeing as you're there anyway maybe you could open the doors...

We can wish!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

That's an interesting one that I hadn't thought of - and I don't think the Guisborough Junction reverse would handle a 5 car either, not to mention potentially having a half hourly (roughly) service out that way towards Nunthorpe in the future making that a lesser preferred option anyway.

Guisborough junction reverse can handle 6car 185's so an IEP derivative at 5 car isnt an issue. The only problem as you mention is capacity if the nunthorpe is upped to half hourly

 

[D6975]

Surely there must be somewhere at the east end of Tees Yard where a unit could sit for a while? It's only a couple of minutes from Middlesbrough.

 

[northwichcat]

Tony Miles has said he's heard from a reliable source the new North TPE trains will be Hitachi AT300s (an add-on to the GWR order) but the electric only trains will not be Hitachi and could possibly be the same type of trains First proposed using for Birmingham-Scotland when they made their West Coast bid (CAF built.)

 

[RoundNewcastle]

Tony Miles has said he's heard from a reliable source the new North TPE trains will be Hitachi AT300s (an add-on to the GWR order) but the electric only trains will not be Hitachi and could possibly be the same type of trains First proposed using for Birmingham-Scotland when they made their West Coast bid (CAF built.)

But station dwell times will be longer at Leeds,Manchester Vic/Pic, Newcastle, York etc in the rush hours due to 2 single leaf doors per carriage on each side.
Its probably better going for a 185 style 2x Double leaf doors for faster boarding times and with EMUs on the market with 125 Mph capability ( Aventra,AT200?, and if its avaliable Desrio Verve ) it will better suit transpennine routes.
Though Network Rail are apparently upgrading the ECML for 140 MPH so IEPs can run at top speed to London, so AT300s would come in handy for that I suppose?

 

[Senex]

But station dwell times will be longer at Leeds,Manchester Vic/Pic, Newcastle, York etc in the rush hours due to 2 single leaf doors per carriage on each side.
Its probably better going for a 185 style 2x Double leaf doors for faster boarding times and with EMUs on the market with 125 Mph capability ( Aventra,AT200?, and if its avaliable Desrio Verve ) it will better suit transpennine routes.

But the 185-style doors and layout are not really suitable for a long-distance inter-city service. Should passengers on the genuine long-distance services like Manchester (and in the future Liverpool) to Scotland via the West Coast and Leeds to Scotland via the East Coast be subjected to rolling stock offering less comfort than their fellows from London or Birmingham to Scotland, or to and from Scotland via XC, just to keep the peak-time commuters of West Yorkshire happy?

 

[northwichcat]

But station dwell times will be longer at Leeds,Manchester Vic/Pic, Newcastle, York etc in the rush hours due to 2 single leaf doors per carriage on each side.

Longer at Newcastle? The shortest time a TPE train spends at Newcastle currently is 13 minutes. How slow are you lot at boarding and alighting trains. :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

just to keep the peak-time commuters of West Yorkshire happy?

And a number of the local commuters will be using the half-hourly 'semi-fasts' which will continue to be operated by 185s.

 

[RoundNewcastle]

Longer at Newcastle? The shortest time a TPE train spends at Newcastle currently is 13 minutes. How slow are you lot at boarding and alighting trains. :roll:

Sorry I meant the through services to Edinburgh which will start from 2019 through Newcastle in the peak can be a big hassle for single leaf door trains like Voyagers and HSTs and Mark 4s when you only have around 3 minuetes to get the train dorr closed again and straight out without causing a jam of trains around the area which occasionally happens around peak times.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Tony Miles has said he's heard from a reliable source the new North TPE trains will be Hitachi AT300s (an add-on to the GWR order) but the electric only trains will not be Hitachi and could possibly be the same type of trains First proposed using for Birmingham-Scotland when they made their West Coast bid (CAF built.)

And therefore might tilt, unlike AT300.

 

[RoundNewcastle]

But the 185-style doors and layout are not really suitable for a long-distance inter-city service. Should passengers on the genuine long-distance services like Manchester (and in the future Liverpool) to Scotland via the West Coast and Leeds to Scotland via the East Coast be subjected to rolling stock offering less comfort than their fellows from London or Birmingham to Scotland, or to and from Scotland via XC, just to keep the peak-time commuters of West Yorkshire happy?

Good point, but another question is will the specified amount of carriages in a AT300 be too long for platforms at Huddersfield? Could probably fit a 5 car but nothing longer.

 

[northwichcat]

Good point, but another question is will the specified amount of carriages in a AT300 be too long for platforms at Huddersfield? Could probably fit a 5 car but nothing longer.

8 car 158s have stopped at Huddersfield before.

Platforms can be lengthened and new trains can be fitted with SDO. In the South East SDO is used on a daily basis. The problem arises if the signals or crossover points are in the wrong place to allow SDO/platform lengthening.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Good point, but another question is will the specified amount of carriages in a AT300 be too long for platforms at Huddersfield? Could probably fit a 5 car but nothing longer.

8 car 158s have stopped at Huddersfield before.

Platforms can be lengthened and new trains can be fitted with SDO. In the South East SDO is used on a daily basis. The problem arises if the signals or crossover points are in the wrong place to allow SDO/platform lengthening.

Under the "Northern Hub" platform 1 at HUD is planned to be extended at the Leeds end (the total gain will be lessened by the associated extension of P2, mind) but I'm not sure what the total length is planned to be. P8 is more of a problem due to the curvature.

As for hoping that Leeds to Huddersfield passengers will stick to the semi-fasts, good luck with that! One of the reasons for the 6tph is to allow a "turn up and go" service, so people will simply board whichever service arrives first. Though with the semi-fasts serving more than just Dewsbury people may be more likely to wait for a fast service, especially coming back from Leeds when the fast will most likely overtake the slower train.

 

[northwichcat]

As for hoping that Leeds to Huddersfield passengers will stick to the semi-fasts, good luck with that! One of the reasons for the 6tph is to allow a "turn up and go" service, so people will simply board whichever service arrives first. Though with the semi-fasts serving more than just Dewsbury people may be more likely to wait for a fast service, especially coming back from Leeds when the fast will most likely overtake the slower train.

I didn't say Huddersfield-Leeds passengers but was responding to a comment about 'West Yorkshire local passengers.' Dewsbury will only have 1 fast service per hour, so passengers doing Huddersfield-Dewsbury or Dewsbury-Leeds may have to wait for 2 'semi-fasts' to go before an express turns up.

I very much doubt passengers doing Huddersfield-Dewsbury or Dewsbury-Leeds will be able to miss a semi-fast and see the hourly express overtake it, given there won't be more than 2 intermediate stations. If you were talking about Dewsbury to Manchester it might be a different matter.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But the 185-style doors and layout are not really suitable for a long-distance inter-city service. Should passengers on the genuine long-distance services like Manchester (and in the future Liverpool) to Scotland via the West Coast and Leeds to Scotland via the East Coast be subjected to rolling stock offering less comfort than their fellows from London or Birmingham to Scotland, or to and from Scotland via XC, just to keep the peak-time commuters of West Yorkshire happy?

This old chestnut again :roll:

Perhaps the question you should be asking is whether commuters within West Yorkshire should be inconvenienced by longer-distance leisure travellers (many of them on Senior Railcards and Advance tickets) wanting tube-style frequencies to travel 200+ miles? Don't moan at us for your train being less than perfect, when our local services have been cut to make room for you!

That is of course leaving aside the point that the Edinburgh via ECML service is not being offered for the benefit of through passengers anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I didn't say Huddersfield-Leeds passengers but was responding to a comment about 'West Yorkshire local passengers.' Dewsbury will only have 1 fast service per hour, so passengers doing Huddersfield-Dewsbury or Dewsbury-Leeds may have to wait for 2 'semi-fasts' to go before an express turns up.

I very much doubt passengers doing Huddersfield-Dewsbury or Dewsbury-Leeds will be able to miss a semi-fast and see the hourly express overtake it, given there won't be more than 2 intermediate stations. If you were talking about Dewsbury to Manchester it might be a different matter.

I agree, but I was talking about Huddersfield to Leeds passengers, not those going to or from Dewsbury. My point being that currently those passengers won't be fussed about getting the Hull or Scarborough service as it only takes a few minutes longer. But add in the extra stops and those people will instead wait at Huddersfield until a Newcastle or Middlesbrough service turns up.

 

[northwichcat]

That is of course leaving aside the point that the Edinburgh via ECML service is not being offered for the benefit of through passengers anyway.

That's one of the reasons why a set-down or pick-up restriction wouldn't work, which could normally be implemented to prevent local journeys being made on long distance services.

Implement set-down only at Huddersfield on a Liverpool-Edinburgh service and you don't allow Huddersfield passengers to benefit from a direct service to Edinburgh.

wanting tube-style frequencies to travel 200+ miles?

Explain.

Newcastle will have 2tph to Manchester, Middlesbrough will have 1tph to Manchester, as will Scarborough and Hull.

Which tube lines see half-hourly or hourly frequencies at the terminus'?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's one of the reasons why a set-down or pick-up restriction wouldn't work, which could normally be implemented to prevent local journeys being made on long distance services.

Implement set-down only at Huddersfield on a Liverpool-Edinburgh service and you don't allow Huddersfield passengers to benefit from a direct service to Edinburgh.



Explain.

Newcastle will have 2tph to Manchester, Middlesbrough will have 1tph to Manchester, as will Scarborough and Hull.

Which tube lines see half-hourly or hourly frequencies at the terminus'?

Perhaps I was being somewhat hyperbolic... I've long argued that 6tph is too much and is the wrong approach for Transpennine, and I'm not the only one who feels this way... But we are where we are. It is extremely frustrating though to hear people moaning about door positions when at least two of my regular journeys are going to become much more tricky in the next few years.

I certainly wasn't suggesting set-down restrictions, they tend not to work except for first or penultimate calls on longer-distance journeys and they're actually very difficult to enforce.

 

[po8crg]

Which tube lines see half-hourly or hourly frequencies at the terminus'?

Met at Amersham and at Chesham, off-peak.

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps I was being somewhat hyperbolic... I've long argued that 6tph is too much and is the wrong approach for Transpennine, and I'm not the only one who feels this way... But we are where we are. It is extremely frustrating though to hear people moaning about door positions when at least two of my regular journeys are going to become much more tricky in the next few years.

As I live in Cheshire and my local service goes in to Piccadilly it means journey times will get slower for me to get to West Yorkshire and beyond as a result of the 'semi-fasts' and services going via the Ordsall Chord.

However, overall the changes mean they'll be more services. Currently I can get from Scarborough to the Mid-Cheshire line with one change but the last time I did that the Scarborough service arrived late at Piccadilly and I had to wait there for around 50 minutes. With both Scarborough-York and Piccadilly-Northwich getting 2tph in the future it could be I have to change twice but the chance of a long wait for a connecting train is less.

I certainly wasn't suggesting set-down restrictions, they tend not to work except for first or penultimate calls on longer-distance journeys and they're actually very difficult to enforce.

I wasn't trying to imply you were suggesting that.

One of the problem with Huddersfield as well as Bolton and Warrington is they are really too large for long distance services to go through without stopping and if they stop people making local journeys will board them because they are faster and have better rolling stock than the slower services.

 

[Nym]

Met at Amersham and at Chesham, off-peak.

Beat me to it

 

[Senex]

Perhaps the question you should be asking is whether commuters within West Yorkshire should be inconvenienced by longer-distance leisure travellers (many of them on Senior Railcards and Advance tickets) wanting tube-style frequencies to travel 200+ miles? Don't moan at us for your train being less than perfect, when our local services have been cut to make room for you!

I don't think it's us longer-distance leisure travellers -- or the longer-distance business travellers -- who have asked for tube-style frequencies. I suspect many of us would be happy with a train an hour and delighted with two trains an hour. The tube frequencies come from the absurd rolling stock prescribed for the route offering totally inadequate capacity, so frequency is being used to make up for too short a train.
I still think that two services are needed, one a local service between Manchester and Leeds catering for local traffic including the commuters (who enjoy every bit as much of a discount as most of the leisure travellers), and one a proper express inter-city service like the new Liverpool to Newcastle (and later Edinburgh) service, though perhaps dropping one or two more of the stops.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

I still think that two services are needed, one a local service between Manchester and Leeds catering for local traffic including the commuters (who enjoy every bit as much of a discount as most of the leisure travellers), and one a proper express inter-city service like the new Liverpool to Newcastle (and later Edinburgh) service, though perhaps dropping one or two more of the stops.

Here here. (Or is it hear hear)
As a regular user I would love a big express train to leave Leeds at say xx.01 and not stop at HUD be followed by a semi fast at say xx.05 stopping at Dewsbury and Hudds then onwards.
Get all the Manchester and beyond pax out of the way.
Put the doors where you like for either train - I'd like a seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the 185-style doors and layout are not really suitable for a long-distance inter-city service

It feels like that for some reason, but is it really the case? Doors in those positions make it easier to board and find your seat with luggage, while the layout is very low density with plenty of tables, and the large overhead racks take even the largest of trolley cases with ease. And because of few stops, there isn't much of a chance for the cold to get in, though that could be solved by adding vestibule doors.

The issues I have with the 185 are the position of First Class (at one end either side of a door would be better) and that they are a coach too short and not often enough doubled up. And the ride can be a little poor at times.

 

[absolutelymilk]

With both Scarborough-York and Piccadilly-Northwich getting 2tph in the future it could be I have to change twice but the chance of a long wait for a connecting train is less.

Note that the new hourly service Piccadilly-Greenbank will only call at Altrincham, Hale, Knutsford, Northwich so that should be a shorter journey for you. And hopefully won't involve Pacers!

 

[Philip C]

Met at Amersham and at Chesham, off-peak.

The last time I looked the Metropolitan Line was a sub-surface and not a 'tube' line.

On the related matter of six TPE trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds wasn't there some expectation that this would only persist until electrification, whereupon proper stopping services would be reinstated? Presumably the delays in electrification, and doubts about the scope of any works to improve the infrastructure, mean that the 'interim' arrangements will now continue for the full duration of the new franchise.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Here here. (Or is it hear hear)
As a regular user I would love a big express train to leave Leeds at say xx.01 and not stop at HUD be followed by a semi fast at say xx.05 stopping at Dewsbury and Hudds then onwards.
Get all the Manchester and beyond pax out of the way.
Put the doors where you like for either train - I'd like a seat.

Based on the turnover of pax at Huddersfield I've observed, any service not stopping there would probably only need 3/4 cars... But as was posted earlier Huddersfield like Bolton is, whilst not technically a city, too big a market to miss. Similarly you don't see many (if any?) Euston to Manchester services omitting Stockport, nor KX-Leeds services not calling at that former mining village with a big church, Wakefield!

The last time I looked the Metropolitan Line was a sub-surface and not a 'tube' line.

On the related matter of six TPE trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds wasn't there some expectation that this would only persist until electrification, whereupon proper stopping services would be reinstated? Presumably the delays in electrification, and doubts about the scope of any works to improve the infrastructure, mean that the 'interim' arrangements will now continue for the full duration of the new franchise.

It was me who committed the cardinal sin of using "tube" as shorthand for all LUL services, apologies all round!

I believe the original plan was for 6 TPE services per hour permanently, but prior to electrification this could only be accommodated by withdrawing the stoppers and serving the smaller stations with semi-fasts. With electrification those stoppers could be reinstated and the semi-fasts speeded up. The sensible thing to do therefore would be to stick with 4/5 TPE services per hour (splitting and joining if required) UNTIL the electrification was in place. But of course since when has the sensible thing been the favoured option! It also doesn't help that politicians from London seem to think of "The North" as one long thin city rather than several independent but connected conurbations.

 

[ScotTrains]

I'm looking forward to the new Intercity trains for the Scottish routes. The 185/350s are commuter trains and not suitable for the long distance routes to Scotland. Intercity trains should have doors at the ends of the coach with an internal door to get into the saloon. Nobody wants to be stuck next to a door on a 3hr journey, especially when it's cold outside. Intercity trains should have bigger comfier seats ideally aligned with windows (185/350s have horrible hard thin seats). Carpet should be full width and possibly extending up as far as the windows. Ideally armrests should be soft. The lack of soft furnishings gives the 350s a cold 'commuter train' feel to them. Ideally all windows should have curtains or blinds. All seats should have power sockets. Hopefully they will put first class exclusively in an end coach and NOT have standard class either side, this is annoying for both standard and first class passengers. A small kitchen, even a voyager style microwave, would be a huge inprovement! When travelling to Manchester airport from Scotland I find the 350s so bad that I now travel with Virgin and change at either Warrington or Preston. I know I'm not the only person who does this. It's about time these routes had proper intercity trains to compete with Virgin.

 

[superkev]

I'm looking forward to the new Intercity trains for the Scottish routes. The 185/350s are commuter trains and not suitable for the long distance routes

I can't help thinking the 185's with there 750hp engines big windows and wide foors would be ideal on the S and C.
K

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm looking forward to the new Intercity trains for the Scottish routes. The 185/350s are commuter trains and not suitable for the long distance routes to Scotland. Intercity trains should have doors at the ends of the coach with an internal door to get into the saloon. Nobody wants to be stuck next to a door on a 3hr journey, especially when it's cold outside. Intercity trains should have bigger comfier seats ideally aligned with windows (185/350s have horrible hard thin seats). Carpet should be full width and possibly extending up as far as the windows. Ideally armrests should be soft. The lack of soft furnishings gives the 350s a cold 'commuter train' feel to them. Ideally all windows should have curtains or blinds. All seats should have power sockets. Hopefully they will put first class exclusively in an end coach and NOT have standard class either side, this is annoying for both standard and first class passengers. A small kitchen, even a voyager style microwave, would be a huge inprovement! When travelling to Manchester airport from Scotland I find the 350s so bad that I now travel with Virgin and change at either Warrington or Preston. I know I'm not the only person who does this. It's about time these routes had proper intercity trains to compete with Virgin.

Comfort is always a matter of personal opinion. Personally I find 350s to be more comfortable than 390s or Voyagers. And no blinds please - they can be a b****y nuisance for those of us who like to see out of the windows. Tinted glass plus more effective aircon would be preferable. And please also no more than half a coach of first class. Even without 1st class, five coach trains would be be much to small for many services.