TPE fleet changes if TPML gets fully electrified?

[SouthEastBuses]

With plans to electrify the Transpennine Mainline between Manchester and York via Leeds, this means that most of the Nova 3 routes will be under the wires for quite a long time. So, should the class 68s diesel locomotives be replaced by class 88 bi-mode locomotives, which are the same as a 68, but with the added benefit of running in electric mode under the wires.

And also, if the line gets fully electrified, should the Nova 1s / 802s be converted into 801s? Seeing that diesel engines by then would be no use for Liverpool/Manchester to Newcastle/Edinburgh services.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Assuming only the routes via Diggle and Dewsbury would be wired, then you'd want to keep the diesel engines in 802s for diversionary purposes.

I'd imagine that given an 88 on diesel is quite a bit weaker than a 68 is that they'd lose time that they'd gain from running electric Liverpool-York heading towards Scarborough (the point extends to diversions).

So I would imagine, if you electrified Manchester-York only then little change would occur to the TPE fleet.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Assuming only the routes via Diggle and Dewsbury would be wired, then you'd want to keep the diesel engines in 802s for diversionary purposes.

I'd imagine that given an 88 on diesel is quite a bit weaker than a 68 is that they'd lose time that they'd gain from running electric Liverpool-York heading towards Scarborough (the point extends to diversions).

So I would imagine, if you electrified Manchester-York only then little change would occur to the TPE fleet.

That's true. The 88s are known for being very weak in diesel mode.

Another idea would be to have Nova 3s on Liverpool-Edinburgh services (but hauled by a Class 91, which I'm sure there will be many available due to LNER replacing most of them with 801s), with the 802s used on the current Nova 3 routes.

The reason why I suggested a class 91 to haul the MK5As is because the 88s can't do 125mph, whilst the 91s can. And I'm pretty sure they'd appreciate the extra speed on the EML.

And the current 68s could be returned to DRS.

 

[D6975]

If Liverpool - York were to become fully electrified, then replacing 68s with 88s would logically also see some 88 and 802 diagrams swap over, 88s going to Newcastle/Edinburgh and 802s going to Scarborough.

edit - beaten to it!!

 

[Purple Orange]

I think it depends on what sort of timeline we are talking about. Let’s say it is 2030 by the time the whole route is electrified, there will be surplus 390s, 805 and 807 trains, given that by that point HS2 classic compatible trains will be coming on board. A number of those trains may be retained for running Euston to Liverpool, Manchester, Blackpool & North Wales on the WCML, but not all.

Therefore I could see the case for the 68s to be moved on, with TPE receiving number of cascaded trains from the WCML. Cascading the 805s may be better placed to ensure a uniform fleet of bi-modes, perhaps with some being reformed in to longer units.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Personally if anything should change from the Class 68 / Mark 5 fleet in this case then I think it should be just Class 88's - I'd have thought that this would be cheaper than buying new Class 801's and would save messing about with taking diesel engines out of the Class 802's.

 

[SeanG]

If it were me, I would order some new 802s and replace anything that is not an 802 on the north route, and perhaps the 397s also.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it were me, I would order some new 802s and replace anything that is not an 802 on the north route, and perhaps the 397s also.

Completely agreed. A homogeneous fleet of 5-car 802s on all routes would massively increase flexibility. That leaves the 397s as a bit of an oddball, but I'm sure somewhere would be found for some IC type EMUs with another TOC.

You could I suppose order electric locomotives for the Mk5s, but it would be so much simpler if TPE only operated two types of stock - or perhaps even better replace the 185s with more 80x and have one type.

 

[Purple Orange]

I could see the 397 units allocated to an open access operator. Something like Euston-Blackpool. Or on the ECML.

In an ideal world one homogeneous fleet of trains would be nice, but I suspect TPE might be subjected to the XC treatment until HS2 & NPR comes along. Even if NPR is primarily using the existing line via Huddersfield, I’d expect that would be the point where new fleet is introduced.

 

[JonathanH]

I could see the 397 units allocated to an open access operator. Something like Euston-Blackpool. Or on the ECML.

Units do not get 'allocated' to an open-access operator.

Completely agreed. A homogeneous fleet of 5-car 802s on all routes would massively increase flexibility. That leaves the 397s as a bit of an oddball, but I'm sure somewhere would be found for some IC type EMUs with another TOC.

Why is it any more sensible to have an 'oddball' fleet with another operator than it is for TPE to have them? 12 units that do a specific job on a single route like Manchester to Scotland really doesn't need standardisation with a fleet of 802s.

Absolutely bin off the 68+Mk5 sets with 802s but I don't think anything needs to change on the WCML operation now the 397s are there.

Presumably the idea is that it would save the cost of the servicing arrangements at Longsight.

 

[Whistler40145]

I'd order more 802s and then make the Mark 5 stock available for other TOCs

 

[JonathanH]

I'd order more 802s and then make the Mark 5 stock available for other TOCs

Why? Yes, order 802s but if the Mark 5 stock is unsuitable for TPE, it is not suitable for any other TOC and should just be put into storage and forgotten about.

 

[Whistler40145]

Why? If the Mark 5 stock is unsuitable for TPE, it is not suitable for any other TOC.

Not necessarily

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Surely you want a unit that can do 125mph?

 

[Purple Orange]

Units do not get 'allocated' to an open-access operator.

.

What word would you use then? I used ‘allocated’ in the loosest of terms. I could have said any word to convey that the 397s could go in to operation with an open access operator. I gather that trains aren’t doled out like dodgems at a fairground.

 

[JonathanH]

Not necessarily

Explain how and where it could actually be operated as a non standard fleet, comparing that to how it is unsuitable for TPE. Factors will include it either being too expensive to operate, not having appropriate servicing facilities, the cost of introduction and lack of capacity.

What word would you use then? I used ‘allocated’ in the loosest of terms. I could have said any word to convey that the 397s could go in to operation with an open access operator. I gather that trains aren’t doled out like dodgems at a fairground.

Probably 'touted' - it would get the leasing company seeking to find a customer.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surely you want a unit that can do 125mph?

Without a complete rebuild of the route across the Pennines moving most of it to a new alignment, the routes to Hull & Scarborough would be a complete waste of 125mph units. Even Middlesbrough would only be able to use that higher top speed for the relatively short distance from York to Northallerton. The Newcastle and Edinburgh services can make use of 125mph*, and already do.

Outside of creating a uniform fleet, there's no advantage to standardising on 802s.

*- Sometimes, they even go above and beyond that!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? Yes, order 802s but if the Mark 5 stock is unsuitable for TPE, it is not suitable for any other TOC and should just be put into storage and forgotten about.

It's less whether it's suitable for TPE, and more whether it's suitable for (a) running under wires, or (b) whether TPE would benefit from the simplicity of a single fleet.

 

[Whistler40145]

The 68+Mk5s could be cascaded onto the Manchester Piccadilly to Cleethorpes service, with 185s being made available for other TOCs

 

[Purple Orange]

The 68+Mk5s could be cascaded onto the Manchester Piccadilly to Cleethorpes service, with 185s being made available for other TOCs

Assuming wires between Liverpool & York, then it makes sense to me to get Bi-mode trains on the job for Liverpool-Scunthorpe and Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough. (I’d say there is a case for that now, but with wires most definitely).

Now what of the Mk5s? They don’t need to be attached to a 68, so the more I think about it, it would be best to keep the Mk5a carriages where they are and use an 88 until the whole fleet needs to be replaced.

 

[Greybeard33]

The reason why I suggested a class 91 to haul the MK5As is because the 88s can't do 125mph, whilst the 91s can. And I'm pretty sure they'd appreciate the extra speed on the EML.

Could 88s not be re-geared for 125mph under the wires? I seem to remember that TPE's original rolling stock plan was to replace the 68s with 88s once transpennine electrification was complete (which at that time was planned to happen in the early 2020s). That was why the Mk5As were specced for 125mph not 100mph. When TPE was awarded the franchise it claimed that its new trains would all be 125mph capable.

 

[class26]

What word would you use then? I used ‘allocated’ in the loosest of terms. I could have said any word to convey that the 397s could go in to operation with an open access operator. I gather that trains aren’t doled out like dodgems at a fairground.

Maybe " available" for Open Access operators ?

 

[CBlue]

The Mk5 sets were a solution for a problem that now doesn't exist. Far better off replacing them with 802's or whatever equivalent exists, although of course I understand how there's a desire for LHCS operations to continue among enthusiasts.

 

[30907]

I was told the LH sets were procured with a view to switching to electric haulage once TP North was electrified. Whether that represents the final decision I don't know, but my source was well-informed.
It doesn't follow that that will - or should - happen, though.

 

[Whistler40145]

I was told the LH sets were procured with a view to switching to electric haulage once TP North was electrified. Whether that represents the final decision I don't know, but my source was well-informed.
It doesn't follow that that will - or should - happen, though.

Could we see Class 93s working

 

[HST43257]

I certainly support the approach of transferring 802s to the Scarborough/Middlesbrough routes. You could also have them on Hull services but that’d leave you with no spares - could you convert one of the 802/3s? HT had 3 full diagrams and 5 trains so I’m sure one set could be transferred.

With this, electric locos with the Mk5As would take Edinburgh/Newcastle to Liverpool/Manchester, although this is 17 diagrams for 13 Mk5A sets. Ideally another 5 or 6 could be built. 125mph electric
locos would be good, thoug I initially thought about Class 90s. Decent acceleration and 110mph capability. The problem is their age by the time that TPML electrification happens. For this reason I’d suggest 88s or some new loco similar to it.

In terms of the other TPE services (including Liverpool to Nottingham), I’d keep 397s on the Manchester to Scotland via WCML services. For now I’d keep 185s on but these would both be directly replaced by NPR trains when their services come along, which i’d like to be identical to the current ones (from Stockport to Cleethorpes and Nottingham with high speed line extensions to Liverpool.

 

[Whistler40145]

I certainly support the approach of transferring 802s to the Scarborough/Middlesbrough routes. You could also have them on Hull services but that’d leave you with no spares - could you convert one of the 802/3s? HT had 3 full diagrams and 5 trains so I’m sure one set could be transferred.

With this, electric locos with the Mk5As would take Edinburgh/Newcastle to Liverpool/Manchester, although this is 17 diagrams for 13 Mk5A sets. Ideally another 5 or 6 could be built. 125mph electric
locos would be good, thoug I initially thought about Class 90s. Decent acceleration and 110mph capability. The problem is their age by the time that TPML electrification happens. For this reason I’d suggest 88s or some new loco similar to it.

In terms of the other TPE services (including Liverpool to Nottingham), I’d keep 397s on the Manchester to Scotland via WCML services. For now I’d keep 185s on but these would both be directly replaced by NPR trains when their services come along, which i’d like to be identical to the current ones (from Stockport to Cleethorpes and Nottingham with high speed line extensions to Liverpool.

I thought TPE wasn’t taking on the Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham section of the current Norwich service because of the reduction of passengers caused by the COVID-19 restrictions

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought TPE wasn’t taking on the Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham section of the current Norwich service because of the reduction of passengers caused by the COVID-19 restrictions

It isn't, but EMR are going to run it using 185s. Which seems a bit silly, and I bet once someone is next fiddling around with things it (and any separate depots and traincrew involved) will quietly be moved over.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I certainly support the approach of transferring 802s to the Scarborough/Middlesbrough routes. You could also have them on Hull services but that’d leave you with no spares - could you convert one of the 802/3s? HT had 3 full diagrams and 5 trains so I’m sure one set could be transferred.

With this, electric locos with the Mk5As would take Edinburgh/Newcastle to Liverpool/Manchester, although this is 17 diagrams for 13 Mk5A sets. Ideally another 5 or 6 could be built. 125mph electric
locos would be good, thoug I initially thought about Class 90s. Decent acceleration and 110mph capability. The problem is their age by the time that TPML electrification happens. For this reason I’d suggest 88s or some new loco similar to it.

In terms of the other TPE services (including Liverpool to Nottingham), I’d keep 397s on the Manchester to Scotland via WCML services. For now I’d keep 185s on but these would both be directly replaced by NPR trains when their services come along, which i’d like to be identical to the current ones (from Stockport to Cleethorpes and Nottingham with high speed line extensions to Liverpool.

For the 125mph electric loco, that's why I suggested an ex LNER Class 91/Intercity 225 - but I can understand that they'll be too old by the time the TPML electrification gets fully complete.

 

[Mollman]

I thought there was an option on the 397s for more units - these would makes sense for Newcastle services allowing 802s to go onto Redcar & Scarborough replacing Mk5s. Ideally you would actually electrify through to Redcar (and cover Darlington - Saltburn too) meaning 802s could go onto Hull services instead.