TPE fleet changes if TPML gets fully electrified?

[HST43257]

I thought there was an option on the 397s for more units - these would makes sense for Newcastle services allowing 802s to go onto Redcar & Scarborough replacing Mk5s. Ideally you would actually electrify through to Redcar (and cover Darlington - Saltburn too) meaning 802s could go onto Hull services instead.

Yes this all could be good but I personally feel they can get more out of the Mk5As

 

[JonathanH]

Yes this all could be good but I personally feel they can get more out of the Mk5As

There is a much greater prize on offer on terms of simplification if they can be eliminated though.

 

[CBlue]

Yes this all could be good but I personally feel they can get more out of the Mk5As

Outside of an enthusiast bubble, they're just better off getting rid.

 

[37424]

This has been discussed many times and we don't even know if and when electrification will be completed, and what any post electrification timetable will be which could be substancially different to the current timetable, and whatever additional rolling stock might be needed to meet the new timetable. Clearly there are number of options including obtaining EMU's to replace MK5 stock, finding a suitable Electric Locomotive to work them but there are many variables which as per usual end up in the realms of wild speculation. Ideally you would probably want to reduce the number of fleet types, then you have the desire to get rid of Diesel maybe a Battery EMU could do Northallerton-Redcar, or a Hydrogen train could do all the offwire routes.

With the 802's clearly you have the flexibility to leave then on the existing routes and use them as EMU's or move them to the off wire routes.

 

[Bevan Price]

As York to Scarborough is unlikely to be electrified in the foreseeable future, I would suggest that - if/when Manchester - Leeds - York is electrified, that Class 68s could operate a Scarborough to York (or Leeds) shuttle service, with the others transferred to the Manchester /Cleethorpes services.
A few may also be used for Leeds/Hull and/or York/Middlesbrough shuttles until more 8xx bimodes are available (or affordable)

Class 185s are likely to be around 30 years old before full electrification could be completed, so it would then be time to contemplate their eventual replacements.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think the TPE fleet will evolve in two stages.

First after full electrification between Manchester &
York and the introduction of the 54 HS2 trains in 2026. There will be 56 pendolinos and 23 IETs with plenty of life left in them. Some will obviously be retained on the WCML, but others will need a new home.

Then there will be a full fleet replacement at some point between 2035-2040, if TPE starts to run partially on HS2 track. I can see the 802s carrying on in some shape or form, but the Mk5a trains could end up on the south TPE route sooner rather than later.

 

[YorksLad12]

As York to Scarborough is unlikely to be electrified in the foreseeable future, I would suggest that - if/when Manchester - Leeds - York is electrified, that Class 68s could operate a Scarborough to York (or Leeds) shuttle service, with the others transferred to the Manchester /Cleethorpes services.
A few may also be used for Leeds/Hull and/or York/Middlesbrough shuttles until more 8xx bimodes are available (or affordable)

Class 185s are likely to be around 30 years old before full electrification could be completed, so it would then be time to contemplate their eventual replacements.

Class 68s on a York-Scarborough shuttle might be overkill, except in the summer months. SCA has just under 1 million passengers annually, Malton & Seamer have half that combined.

 

[37424]

Class 68s on a York-Scarborough shuttle might be overkill, except in the summer months. SCA has just under 1 million passengers annually, Malton & Seamer have half that combined.

I doubt the politicans for that area would be hasppy with a shuttle service, the obvious soltion is to put the 802's on that route and Redcar and order new EMU's for Newcastle/Edinburgh the MK5's would be available for use elsehere. But to some degree it may depend on how rolling stock is obtained in future if the Dft are doing then who knows quite frankly, the whole idea of using 68's in the first place was a bit of a nonesense which seemed to pushed by the Dft wanting to make use of 442's.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Units do not get 'allocated' to an open-access operator.

Pitty that sharing two largish fleets between a franchised operator and an open access one to avoid micro-fleets would be complicated. With the 150s nearing end of life I'm starting to think we might need to prioritise electrification in Northern England and TPE from Manchester to York and Hull seems a good place to start with the aim being to release 185s to Northern for the other TransPennine route between Manchester and Leeds to cascade 195s onto 150/1 routes. With that first phase of electrification done, I suggest pooling Hull Trains' and TPE's fleets and train crews, and ordering a batch of additional 397s (with IC3000 seats instead of the Fainsas on the first batch, but with no changes that would effect commonality of spares etc.). I would also bring in some suitably suburban EMUs (eg. 350s or 379s) to work the stopping services, which I suggest combining with the Manchester Airport - Newcastle service to save a path between Leeds and Manchester as shown below and also take 1tph out of the Castlefield corridor.

From	To	Stock	Notes
Manchester/Liverpool	Edinburgh/Glasgow	Class 397	Unchanged (via WCML)
Liverpool Lime Street	Edinburgh Waverley	Class 397	Calling at Lea Green, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle and Morpeth
Liverpool Lime Street	Scarborough	Class 802	Calling at Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Malton and Seamer
Manchester Piccadilly	Hull	Class 802	Calling at Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, Garforth, Selby and Brough
Manchester Piccadilly	Cleethorpes	Nova 3	Calling at Stockport, Sheffield, Meadowhall, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough and Grimsby Town
Manchester Airport	Saltburn	Class 802​	Calling at Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Thornaby, Middlesbrough and Redcar Central
Manchester Airport	Newcastle	Suburban EMU	Calling at Gatley, Manchester Piccadilly, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden, Slaithwaite, Huddersfield, Deighton, Mirfield, Ravensthorpe, Dewsbury, Batley, Morley, Cottingley, Leeds, Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham and Chester-le-Street
London Kings Cross	Hull	Class 397	Hull Trains Service
London Kings Cross	Beverley	Class 802	Hull Trains Service

I've also cut the Cleethorpes service back from Manchester Airport to Piccadilly above and made the Liverpool-York services a little faster by moving the Stalybridge, Dewsbury and Garforth stops onto other services. No idea if would work, or if Hull Trains and TPE have enough 802s between them to run everything I've put them down to work, but it should help make use of the wires.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes this all could be good but I personally feel they can get more out of the Mk5As

The intention was to pair them with an electric locomotive instead of the 68.

 

[Purple Orange]

Pitty that sharing two largish fleets between a franchised operator and an open access one to avoid micro-fleets would be complicated. With the 150s nearing end of life I'm starting to think we might need to prioritise electrification in Northern England and TPE from Manchester to York and Hull seems a good place to start with the aim being to release 185s to Northern for the other TransPennine route between Manchester and Leeds to cascade 195s onto 150/1 routes. With that first phase of electrification done, I suggest pooling Hull Trains' and TPE's fleets and train crews, and ordering a batch of additional 397s (with IC3000 seats instead of the Fainsas on the first batch, but with no changes that would effect commonality of spares etc.). I would also bring in some suitably suburban EMUs (eg. 350s or 379s) to work the stopping services, which I suggest combining with the Manchester Airport - Newcastle service to save a path between Leeds and Manchester as shown below and also take 1tph out of the Castlefield corridor.

From	To	Stock	Notes
Manchester/Liverpool	Edinburgh/Glasgow	Class 397	Unchanged (via WCML)
Liverpool Lime Street	Edinburgh Waverley	Class 397	Calling at Lea Green, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle and Morpeth
Liverpool Lime Street	Scarborough	Class 802	Calling at Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Malton and Seamer
Manchester Piccadilly	Hull	Class 802	Calling at Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, Garforth, Selby and Brough
Manchester Piccadilly	Cleethorpes	Nova 3	Calling at Stockport, Sheffield, Meadowhall, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough and Grimsby Town
Manchester Airport	Saltburn	Class 802​	Calling at Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Thornaby, Middlesbrough and Redcar Central
Manchester Airport	Newcastle	Suburban EMU	Calling at Gatley, Manchester Piccadilly, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden, Slaithwaite, Huddersfield, Deighton, Mirfield, Ravensthorpe, Dewsbury, Batley, Morley, Cottingley, Leeds, Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham and Chester-le-Street
London Kings Cross	Hull	Class 397	Hull Trains Service
London Kings Cross	Beverley	Class 802	Hull Trains Service

I've also cut the Cleethorpes service back from Manchester Airport to Piccadilly above and made the Liverpool-York services a little faster by moving the Stalybridge, Dewsbury and Garforth stops onto other services. No idea if would work, or if Hull Trains and TPE have enough 802s between them to run everything I've put them down to work, but it should help make use of the wires.

Way too many stops. TPE should be express intercity - not all shack northern.

By the time electrification comes along, NPR & HS2 will be ready to serve routes like Newcastle to Birmingham via Manchester & MAN.

Edit!

PS. I predict the required trains will be:

• 4 tph Brum - Manc Piccadilly (reverse) - Lds - Ncl (2 tph)
  • HS2 classic compatible
• 1 tph Liv - Man Vic - Lds - Hull
• 1 tph Liv - Man Vic -Lds - Middlesbrough
• 1 tph Liv - Man Pic - Sheff - Nott
• 1 tph Liv - Man Pic - Sheff- Cleethorpes
  • All Liverpool trains to need 6-car bi-modes. Doors at 1/3 & 2/3.
• 1 tph Manchester-Scotland (9-car 801)

 

[Energy]

The intention was to pair them with an electric locomotive instead of the 68.

They have got to get a compatible electric locomotive from somewhere, not enough 88s for all sets and they are already in use and I doubt DRS will order more as they wouldn't have too much of a future post TPE.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They have got to get a compatible electric locomotive from somewhere, not enough 88s for all sets and they are already in use and I doubt DRS will order more as they wouldn't have too much of a future post TPE.

TPE could order some to lease. They'd have as long a role as the sets do.

 

[Energy]

TPE could order some to lease. They'd have as long a role as the sets do.

If I was a ROSCO I would be sceptical, the mk5as already have issues but the expensive bit (68s) can at least easily find other work, the 88s less so.

 

[Domh245]

They have got to get a compatible electric locomotive from somewhere, not enough 88s for all sets and they are already in use and I doubt DRS will order more as they wouldn't have too much of a future post TPE.

I'm not a betting man, but an order for up to 30 Stadler/valencia built electric locomotives (with limited diesel capability) and 110mph top speed would be ideal for this purpose...

 

[Energy]

I'm not a betting man, but an order for up to 30 Stadler/valencia built electric locomotives (with limited diesel capability) and 110mph top speed would be ideal for this purpose...

30 is a lot, TPE only have 13 sets and I doubt any more will be coming. We already have electric locos in store, new ones aren't useful unless they have enough diesel power by themselves as well (class 93).

 

[Domh245]

30 is a lot, TPE only have 13 sets and I doubt any more will be coming. We already have electric locos in store, new ones aren't useful unless they have enough diesel power by themselves as well (class 93).

30 is more than 13 though, which is rather the point. ROG/whoever is financing the 93s will be able to lease 13 of them to TPE and still be able to use the rest of the fleet on whatever other freight flows they have in mind (particularly when the order is 10+options - those options likely being highly specific on what TPE want to do). DRS can't afford to lease out the 88s without then losing their ability to do electric freight anywhere

The currently stored electric locos (presumably you mean 91s) are absolutely useless for hauling the Nova3 rakes, so are out of the question.

 

[tetudo boy]

I'd think they would order the extra 22 set's to deploy on Liverpool to Edinburgh and Manchester Airport to Newcastle services and let the existing 802s replace the Mk5 on Liverpool to Scarbrough and Manchester Airport to Redcar Central services. I doubt the Mk5's could have any future, due to them being unreliable. For the Manchester Piccadilly to Hull and stopping services which use Class 185's, I don't know yet.

 

[Glenn1969]

I would have thought there is no point ordering electric locos until the whole of the North has been wired so maybe more 802s? Are there any plans to wire to Hull and Middlesbrough?

 

[NoMorePacers]

I'd think they would order the extra 22 set's to deploy on Liverpool to Edinburgh and Manchester Airport to Newcastle services and let the existing 802s replace the Mk5 on Liverpool to Scarbrough and Manchester Airport to Redcar Central services. I doubt the Mk5's could have any future, due to them being unreliable. For the Manchester Piccadilly to Hull and stopping services which use Class 185's, I don't know yet.

I think using at least some of the 350/2s when they go off-lease from WMT (refurbished to 2+2 like the 185s) would work relatively well for those.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Way too many stops. TPE should be express intercity - not all shack northern.

By the time electrification comes along, NPR & HS2 will be ready to serve routes like Newcastle to Birmingham via Manchester & MAN.

Edit!

PS. I predict the required trains will be:

• 4 tph Brum - Manc Piccadilly (reverse) - Lds - Ncl (2 tph)
  • HS2 classic compatible
• 1 tph Liv - Man Vic - Lds - Hull
• 1 tph Liv - Man Vic -Lds - Middlesbrough
• 1 tph Liv - Man Pic - Sheff - Nott
• 1 tph Liv - Man Pic - Sheff- Cleethorpes
  • All Liverpool trains to need 6-car bi-modes. Doors at 1/3 & 2/3.
• 1 tph Manchester-Scotland (9-car 801)

I agree, TPE should be express, but I didn't add many stops. According to Wikipedia, all the stops I listed are served by TPE. All I did was combine TPE's Manchester-Huddersfield and Huddersfield-Leeds stoppers into a through service and extend it through to Newcastle. I don't know why TPE has those stoppers and not Northern; it would make more sense to me if Northern had that service (and the suburban EMUs to run it) which would reduce TPE to running 4tph on the North Transpennine route and their entire fleet would then by end-door stock (mostly 397s with a scattering of Mark 5 sets and 802s). TPE's 4tph on the North route would be:

• Liverpool Lime Street - Edinburgh Waverley
• Liverpool Lime Street - Scarborough
• Manchester Piccadilly - Hull
• Manchester Airport - Saltburn

Compare to the stops listed on Wikipedia, I think the calling patterns I listed above had one extra stop on the Edinburgh and Redcar services*, two extra stops on the Hull service and two fewer stops on the Scarborough service.

* Redcar services have two extra stops if you count that I included the extension to Saltburn proposed in the Jan 2021 Modern Railways.

 

[tetudo boy]

I think using at least some of the 350/2s when they go off-lease from WMT (refurbished to 2+2 like the 185s) would work relatively well for those.

Porterbrook is using those for battery train's, but there could be a small chance of TPE getting their hand's on them. In fact, you could use their battery function for the Leeds to Hull section. I'd keep the Class 185 on Cleethorpes services.

Pitty that sharing two largish fleets between a franchised operator and an open access one to avoid micro-fleets would be complicated. With the 150s nearing end of life I'm starting to think we might need to prioritise electrification in Northern England and TPE from Manchester to York and Hull seems a good place to start with the aim being to release 185s to Northern for the other TransPennine route between Manchester and Leeds to cascade 195s onto 150/1 routes. With that first phase of electrification done, I suggest pooling Hull Trains' and TPE's fleets and train crews, and ordering a batch of additional 397s (with IC3000 seats instead of the Fainsas on the first batch, but with no changes that would effect commonality of spares etc.). I would also bring in some suitably suburban EMUs (eg. 350s or 379s) to work the stopping services, which I suggest combining with the Manchester Airport - Newcastle service to save a path between Leeds and Manchester as shown below and also take 1tph out of the Castlefield corridor.

From	To	Stock	Notes
Manchester/Liverpool	Edinburgh/Glasgow	Class 397	Unchanged (via WCML)
Liverpool Lime Street	Edinburgh Waverley	Class 397	Calling at Lea Green, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle and Morpeth
Liverpool Lime Street	Scarborough	Class 802	Calling at Newton-le-Willows, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Malton and Seamer
Manchester Piccadilly	Hull	Class 802	Calling at Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, Garforth, Selby and Brough
Manchester Piccadilly	Cleethorpes	Nova 3	Calling at Stockport, Sheffield, Meadowhall, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Habrough and Grimsby Town
Manchester Airport	Saltburn	Class 802​	Calling at Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Thornaby, Middlesbrough and Redcar Central
Manchester Airport	Newcastle	Suburban EMU	Calling at Gatley, Manchester Piccadilly, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden, Slaithwaite, Huddersfield, Deighton, Mirfield, Ravensthorpe, Dewsbury, Batley, Morley, Cottingley, Leeds, Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham and Chester-le-Street
London Kings Cross	Hull	Class 397	Hull Trains Service
London Kings Cross	Beverley	Class 802	Hull Trains Service

I've also cut the Cleethorpes service back from Manchester Airport to Piccadilly above and made the Liverpool-York services a little faster by moving the Stalybridge, Dewsbury and Garforth stops onto other services. No idea if would work, or if Hull Trains and TPE have enough 802s between them to run everything I've put them down to work, but it should help make use of the wires.

There is already a plan to revitalise the Castlefield corridor services. It's being discussed here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/manchester-recovery-taskforce-timetable-consultation.213089/