TPE driver shortage

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Very true. The wishes of ASLEF and the wishes of their members do not always coincide...

Sounds like how matters eventually turned out in "Animal Farm".

 

[Robertj21a]

Very true. The wishes of ASLEF and the wishes of their members do not always coincide...

I'm sure that really can't be true - I seem to recall that (on a few hundred occasions.....) this Forum is routinely reminded that a Union doesn't make decisions as such, as it only exists to comply with the wishes of its members. Perhaps I misunderstood.

:roll:

 

[A-driver]

Very true. The wishes of ASLEF and the wishes of their members do not always coincide...

Wrong. The wishes of the MAJORITY of members coincides. There is of course a natural minority who won't agree on everything and will choose to do their own thing. So no, not true.

Plus the point being made is that even if Aslef agree RDW (or if the company shows it is actively recruiting) neither Aslef or the employer can force people to volunteer to work OT. At my toc we have Aslef agreed RDW but still often a shortage of volunteers at the moment as goodwill fades fast when employees are treated as badly as our employer currently treats us. Generally when Aslef remove RDW over a disagreement or during an unofficial RDW ban (ie not from the union but from the drivers) you get close to 100% support with fewer people ignoring it than I could count on my hand.

Sounds like how matters eventually turned out in "Animal Farm".

Except it dosnt really...

I'm sure that really can't be true - I seem to recall that (on a few hundred occasions.....) this Forum is routinely reminded that a Union doesn't make decisions as such, as it only exists to comply with the wishes of its members. Perhaps I misunderstood.



:roll:

Oh do all get off your high horses and stop trying to be so clever. Aslef are one of the better unions for actually representing their members wishes. I assume you want a round of applause for your oh so clever and sarcastic posts but they are nonsense and factually inaccurate so not worth the time they took to post.

Clearly the MAJORITY of Aslef members support their stance on RDW. There will always be some who don't and will work rest days whatever the union say but the majority will understand the importance for a strong trade union to stand together and look at long term benefit over the short term extra cash for working a day off. Quite simply, if the MAJORITY of members didn't support the current stance on RDW then it would easily and quickly be changed being that Aslef if a democratically run union.

It's impossible for a union to represent the exact wishes of ALL members, like anything democratically elected. There will always be a minority who do not agree with what Aslef are doing, find me a democratically elected organisation which always gets 100% support in any decision it takes.

Any single member who disagrees with a policy (such as rest day work) can go along to their branch meeting and raise the motion and, as long as the majority of the attendees agree rather than disagree, it will be passed up the chain and discussed / balloted by the executive commitee based on what other branches think.

So stop deliberately trying to poke holes in the unions. Animal farm dosnt come into trade unions. It's not the point of them.

 

[notadriver]

Excellent post A-driver.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In praise of ASLEF, they were not the union that not all that long ago tried to be far too clever by half in a perceived situation that would cover events on a not-as-yet franchise award scenario on the next "Northern" franchise situation in which even their own team of legal advisors told them was wrong in its attempted stance, that led to a humiliating climb-down.

 

[DarloRich]

Wrong. The wishes of the MAJORITY of members coincides.

Well said but you are wasting your breath. There are experts on this board in industrial relations and trades unionism who have never had any dealings with a TU and base their views on what the press spoon feed them. I wonder how many unions they have been members of of branch meetings attended..........

 

[A-driver]

In praise of ASLEF, they were not the union that not all that long ago tried to be far too clever by half in a perceived situation that would cover events on a not-as-yet franchise award scenario on the next "Northern" franchise situation in which even their own team of legal advisors told them was wrong in its attempted stance, that led to a humiliating climb-down.

Completely pointless and irrelevant post. Why bother stating that they were not the union which did something?!

You are just desperate to make every post anti Union in some way, even if it involves straying far, far off topic to say "they were NOT the union who did this"...utterly pointless post...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Completely pointless and irrelevant post. Why bother stating that they were not the union which did something?!

You are just desperate to make every post anti Union in some way, even if it involves straying far, far off topic to say "they were NOT the union who did this"...utterly pointless post...

You just can't please some people. You are criticised for pointing our perceived wrongs and you are equally criticised for giving praise to a trades union when it is due. Unlike you and your narrow blinkered left-wing reasoning, to aid your comprehension of the situation, the union which was being discussed at the time that I made my posting was ASLEF and it was ASLEF whom I praised.

If both discussing and praising ASLEF when ASLEF is the organisation being the subject of discussion is said to be "off topic" by you, then I am at an utter and total loss to understand on what the term "on topic" actually conveys to you.

You can decry my postings as often as you care to do so, but your views based on you being right all the time with myself being equally wrong all the time are viewed by me as laughable in the extreme.

 

[A-driver]

You just can't please some people. You are criticised for pointing our perceived wrongs and you are equally criticised for giving praise to a trades union when it is due. Unlike you and your narrow blinkered left-wing reasoning, to aid your comprehension of the situation, the union which was being discussed at the time that I made my posting was ASLEF and it was ASLEF whom I praised.



If both discussing and praising ASLEF when ASLEF is the organisation being the subject of discussion is said to be "off topic" by you, then I am at an utter and total loss to understand on what the term "on topic" actually conveys to you.



You can decry my postings as often as you care to do so, but your views based on you being right all the time with myself being equally wrong all the time are viewed by me as laughable in the extreme.

What relevance is praising Aslef in this thread? The thread is regarding the driver shortage, it has nothing todo with your views on where Aslef are right and rmt are wrong in other franchises. I see no reason for you mentioning the rmts past actions in this thread or praising Aslef for not doing something which the rmt did. It's irrelevant and pointless and proves you refuse see any good from trade unions as the closest you can come to being positive about a union is to be negative about another!

I'm not particularly left wing and I don't believe unions always get it right but your posts on here have been way off the mark in terms of fairness, accuracy or showing any kind of understanding of how unions like Aslef work. So far your only contributions to this thread have been to attempt to have a dig at Aslef wherever possible.

 

[Carlisle]

Generally when Aslef remove RDW over a disagreement or during an unofficial RDW ban (ie not from the union but from the drivers) you get close to 100% support with fewer people ignoring it than I could count on my hand .

Sorry to state the obvious but it's a hec of a lot less painful to decline RDW for moral reasons on a drivers salary than say the salary of a cleaner or kitchen worker for example

 

[notadriver]

Sorry to state the obvious but it's a hec of a lot less painful to decline RDW for moral reasons on a drivers salary than say the salary of a cleaner or kitchen worker for example

Is there a suggestion that drivers should be grateful as they shouldn't be so well compensated ?

 

[ComUtoR]

Sorry to state the obvious but it's a hec of a lot less painful to decline RDW for moral reasons

My moral compass is not available for purchase.

 

[redbutton]

I'm curious as to the figures used by the independent arbitrator. It's obvious that FTPE is understaffed and needs to hire more just to continue the status quo (without a RDW agreement). Did the arbitrator take that into account? Put another way, is the cost of staffing a 4-day week actually higher compared to a fully-staffed 5-day week? Or was it compared to current staffing levels (with or without RDW)?

Of course it's going to cost the company more money to staff every train without RDW if they currently rely on RDW, whether or not they go to 4-day weeks.

I suspect that the withdrawal of RDW is ASLEF's way of making that point.

 

[A-driver]

Sorry to state the obvious but it's a hec of a lot less painful to decline RDW for moral reasons on a drivers salary than say the salary of a cleaner or kitchen worker for example

Not necessarily. You live within your means. If a kitchen worker in low pay has almost garunteed institutionalised overtime then that's one thing, but if it's just the odd bit of OT here and there than declining it because you feel strongly about it won't be painful.

 

[Robertj21a]

.


Oh do all get off your high horses and stop trying to be so clever. Aslef are one of the better unions for actually representing their members wishes. I assume you want a round of applause for your oh so clever and sarcastic posts but they are nonsense and factually inaccurate so not worth the time they took to post.

Clearly the MAJORITY of Aslef members support their stance on RDW. There will always be some who don't and will work rest days whatever the union say but the majority will understand the importance for a strong trade union to stand together and look at long term benefit over the short term extra cash for working a day off. Quite simply, if the MAJORITY of members didn't support the current stance on RDW then it would easily and quickly be changed being that Aslef if a democratically run union.

It's impossible for a union to represent the exact wishes of ALL members, like anything democratically elected. There will always be a minority who do not agree with what Aslef are doing, find me a democratically elected organisation which always gets 100% support in any decision it takes.

Any single member who disagrees with a policy (such as rest day work) can go along to their branch meeting and raise the motion and, as long as the majority of the attendees agree rather than disagree, it will be passed up the chain and discussed / balloted by the executive commitee based on what other branches think.

So stop deliberately trying to poke holes in the unions. Animal farm dosnt come into trade unions. It's not the point of them.

Very amusing. Just a shame that you don't recognise any form of humour on this forum. Not everyone needs to take life quite as seriously as you seem to be doing today.

Chill.......

 

[A-driver]

Very amusing. Just a shame that you don't recognise any form of humour on this forum. Not everyone needs to take life quite as seriously as you seem to be doing today.



Chill.......

Can you tell me which part of your post was meant as a joke then please as I read it (knowing your views on such things all to well from your previous posts) to be deadly serious.

 

[Robertj21a]

Can you tell me which part of your post was meant as a joke then please as I read it (knowing your views on such things all to well from your previous posts) to be deadly serious.

Didn't the emoticon give it away ?

 

[455driver]

Didn't the emoticon give it away ?

Sticking a smillie on the end of a derogatory post doesn't change the fact that it is derogatory does it! :roll:

If I posted-

You are a self important pr-t!

Would you read it the same as-

You are a self important pr-t!

Or differently because there is a smillie on the end of it?

 

[Crossover]

Sticking a smillie on the end of a derogatory post doesn't change the fact that it is derogatory does it! :roll:

If I posted-

You are a self important pr-t!

Would you read it the same as-

You are a self important pr-t!

Or differently because there is a smillie on the end of it?

Depends on the context really.

 

[A-driver]

Didn't the emoticon give it away ?

No, the "lol" at the end made it out to be the sarcastic post it was but still intended as a dig at the union.

Are you saying you support the union on this then?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would you read it the same as- "You are a self important pr-t!".....Or differently because there is a smillie on the end of it?

What on earth is a "smillie"........Is this a Dalradian-Scottish name for what is currently referred to as a "smiley" on internet fora?....

There you are. Just to prove that all my postings are not anti-rail union orientated as your driver collegue accused me of in one of the earlier postings, I have put no less than three of that particular emoticon at the end of the above paragraph. I do have a sense of humour, somewhat quirky at times, but there are some on this website who seem to have as much inbuilt humour as would have been demonstrated by that noted man of Scotland, John Knox.

 

[455driver]

Just to prove that all my postings are not anti-rail union orientated as you accused me of in one of your earlier postings,

Where did I do that then?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where did I do that then?

You, good sir, are quick off the mark and responded before I made subsequent the amendment to the wording of that particular posting.

 

[Robertj21a]

No, the "lol" at the end made it out to be the sarcastic post it was but still intended as a dig at the union.

Are you saying you support the union on this then?

Blimey, you really are wound up today aren't you !!

Perhaps you can now explain what on earth you are going on about - there was no 'lol' at the end of my post (just a 'rolling eyes' emoticon).

It really is very difficult to post anything at all on this forum unless you are praising something. Any slight comment on the subject of Unions brings out the worst in some people.

 

[455driver]

You, good sir, are quick off the mark and responded before I made subsequent the amendment to the wording of that particular posting.

Fair enough, hugs all round!

 

[A-driver]

Blimey, you really are wound up today aren't you !!



Perhaps you can now explain what on earth you are going on about - there was no 'lol' at the end of my post (just a 'rolling eyes' emoticon).



It really is very difficult to post anything at all on this forum unless you are praising something. Any slight comment on the subject of Unions brings out the worst in some people.

So are you saying that your post was intended to show your support of the trade union here?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It really is very difficult to post anything at all on this forum unless you are praising something. Any slight comment on the subject of Unions brings out the worst in some people.

I have today proved that praising a major rail union such as ASLEF does not guarantee that verbal castigation will not then follow on from that.

Remember the phrase "The wrong type of snow" to use a railway-related saying from the past, you can now be accused of giving "The wrong type of praise"....:roll:

 

[driver_m]

Is it me or does this 12 page thread have no actual information about what TPE does now, and what is being proposed.

It does have a bit of propaganda to make TPE themselves look like they're being thwarted by the big bad Union, a lot of opinion and hot air about said union, and the usual staff v non staff verbal tennis, and Paul has written lots of very long sentences again.

However I'm not seeing the other side at all. Why TPE drivers and their reps don't want it. Anytging??

 

[Carlisle]

Not necessarily. You live within your means. If a kitchen worker in low pay has almost garunteed institutionalised overtime then that's one thing, but if it's just the odd bit of OT here and there than declining it because you feel strongly about it won't be painful.

Yes I agree with your points there, and have always supported unions, but consider that cliche used often in sports like football that 'no player is bigger than their club'. Shouldn't that also apply to the unions and the railway if we really want the industry to have a successful future

 

[AnonymousUser1]

So basically, the company doesn't employ enough staff to go through normal operations, and its the staff's fault if anything goes wrong as a result.

Charming.

also spanish practices and legacy terms and conditions that put the NHS to shame