TPE driver shortage

[Crossover]

1959 HUL - LDS cancelled Friday night - I think it was bustituted (didn't hang about to find out) but it meant a gap of near,y 3 hours in RAIL service to Leeds (just to compound an utterly crap evening service)

Whether it was consequential or not, I don't know, but the 2223 LDS - HUL was also cancelled

 

[Starmill]

The cancellations page has now been updated:

Cancellations - Saturday 3 October 2015

05.47 Manchester Piccadilly - York
09.26 Manchester Piccadilly - York
10.53 York - Manchester Piccadilly
12.41 Manchester Piccadilly - Hull
16.39 Hull - Manchester Piccadilly

 

[bb21]

So let me get this straight. An independent consultant has concluded that it is impossible to implement four-day weeks without increasing costs to the company. ASLEF are refusing to accept that conclusion. Are they saying that it is possible to do it without increasing costs, or are they saying that the company should be spending extra money on implementing four-day weeks regardless? Obviously the increase in costs (if so) will not be met by a drop in drivers' salaries, then who is going to fund that?

What is in there for the company if a four-day working week is implemented?

 

[notadriver]

So let me get this straight. An independent consultant has concluded that it is impossible to implement four-day weeks without increasing costs to the company. ASLEF are refusing to accept that conclusion. Are they saying that it is possible to do it without increasing costs, or are they saying that the company should be spending extra money on implementing four-day weeks regardless? Obviously the increase in costs (if so) will not be met by a drop in drivers' salaries, then who is going to fund that?

What is in there for the company if a four-day working week is implemented?

A more robust service with fewer cancellations due to lack of staff as there won't be an overtime ban in place.

 

[185]

ASLEF wanted a four day week? Considering a driver's salary I am lost for words.

Mathematics.

Most of the duties are 9hrs - 9hrs29.

4x 9.5=38.

38 hr week.

I don't really want someone driving my train at 100mph doing a 50 hour week, ta.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Ah that old rubbish coming out again. "You are well paid so have no right to try and better your working conditions". The race to the bottom.

What if all businesses thought your way?! Tesco saying 'we are making more money than asda so let's stop trying to better our profits'!

Comments about drivers pay like yours are only ever based on jealousy. Rather than post silly comments like that why not concentrate on improving your own pay and conditions like the train drivers here are...

People seemed to forget when drivers pay was crap,funnily enough nobody moaned when we were doing a 5h1t load of overtime.Yes I do remember those days.

 

[bb21]

A more robust service with fewer cancellations due to lack of staff as there won't be an overtime ban in place.

Why was the overtime ban in place? Was there a pay dispute?

 

[notadriver]

People seemed to forget when drivers pay was crap,funnily enough nobody moaned when we were doing a 5h1t load of overtime.Yes I do remember those days.

And we had more staff on hand, cover and spares and second men etc. nowadays it's all been cut down to the bare minimum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why was the overtime ban in place? Was there a pay dispute?

Read the link in post 1.

 

[dk1]

And we had more staff on hand, cover and spares and second men etc. nowadays it's all been cut down to the bare minimum.

Sometimes nowadays we don't even get a 'cut-out' & have to do our full diagram It's outrageous

 

[northwichcat]

Mathematics.

Most of the duties are 9hrs - 9hrs29.

4x 9.5=38.

38 hr week.

I don't really want someone driving my train at 100mph doing a 50 hour week, ta.

A 9.5 hour day sounds very long unless it includes breaks in which case it's not a 38 hour working week, even if drivers are paid for their breaks. If, for instance, there's 7.5 hours of driving and 2 hours of breaks in that time then it's a 30 hour working week.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The race to the bottom.

The unions like using that phrase but I've never heard it used with any meaningful context.

The RMT had previously argued that Northern Rail conductors needed a bigger pay rise to be in line with what other TOCs were offering. Then recently Northern Rail have said they are moving call centre staff to a lower pay grade so that they pay a rate in line with what other call centre staff earn and the RMT were outraged calling it a 'race to the bottom.'

Sorry RMT if you're not happy with the latter don't complain about different operators offering different levels of pay rises. It's even less consistent than the Tories saying they want to reward hard working people when they are actually making most people in work worse off overall.

 

[dk1]

A 9.5 hour day sounds very long unless it includes breaks in which case it's not a 38 hour working week, even if drivers are paid for their breaks. If, for instance, there's 7.5 hours of driving and 2 hours of breaks in that time then it's a 30 hour working week.

But it doesn't have to be a 9.5hr day. We are rostered anything from 6-10hrs. Its all balanced out over the 26 week roster & then through padding & spare shift duration. I know of no traincrew that do not get paid breaks, that would be classed as a split shift & thankfully not permitted.

 

[Class 170101]

But it doesn't have to be a 9.5hr day. We are rostered anything from 6-10hrs. Its all balanced out over the 26 week roster & then through padding & spare shift duration. I know of no traincrew that do not get paid breaks, that would be classed as a split shift & thankfully not permitted.

Depends on depots some diagrams can be as short as five hours and as long as 10½ hours.

It is also clear that First Group have no interest in increasing the establishment this close to franchise end. Staff costs are big costs and as controversial as this will be to say neither ASLEF or RMT at any TOC I am aware of accepted pay freezes during the recent recession unlike pther staff.

 

[A-driver]

Regarding paid breaks, drivers usually only get a 30 min break. Some diagrams may have more downtime due to timings but in a 10 hour diagram you only have a 30 min official break in which they can not give you any work. If there is a 2 hour break then 90mins of that can be turned to work.

 

[306024]

Mathematics.

Most of the duties are 9hrs - 9hrs29.
4x 9.5=38.
38 hr week.

What about the diagrams that are less than 9 hours. To get an average diagram length you have to add up all the hours and divide by all the instances of duty, not just chose to select the long ones.

A 35 hour 4 day week means the optimal average diagram length is 8hrs 45mins. At some depots the geography of the routes worked and the frequency of the service can make this difficult to achieve.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Will there be note of the current aspiration made by the bidders for the next franchise in formulation of their bids and for the service provision that will be in the bid requirements?

 

[TUC]

It's none of your business what a driver earns either pre-tax or after tax..

Yes it is, because salary levels impact on the level of subsidy required from the taxpayer.

 

[notadriver]

Yes it is, because salary levels impact on the level of subsidy required from the taxpayer.

There's nothing you can do it about it anyway so why bother ?

 

[djjawuk]

Dragging us back onto topic, does anyone in the know have an idea whether this is going to continue indefinitely? Until the end of the franchise? Until they recruit more drivers?

 

[Carlisle]

There's nothing you can do it about it anyway so why bother ?

Well in case your not old enough to remember , the 1979 election result was a pretty resounding decision by a majority of the public that they'd had enough of being held to ransom by militant unions

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Instead we're held to ransom by a bunch of nepotistic, narcissistic, avaristic fascists who treat the low paid everyday person like the brown stuff you find on your shoe occasionally or like serfs.

Whilst they lord it up on the backs of those who work hard.

If you think that may I be so bold as to suggest that you pack up your belongings into a shipping container and go stateside where they love your sort.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

So let me get this straight. An independent consultant has concluded that it is impossible to implement four-day weeks without increasing costs to the company. ASLEF are refusing to accept that conclusion.

d?

In short, yes.

Part of their argument is that the company should accept any increase in costs or reduction in % spare capacity as they have a higher % spare than industry norms and they have benefitted from the goodwill of drivers for so long.

Dragging us back onto topic, does anyone in the know have an idea whether this is going to continue indefinitely? Until the end of the franchise? Until they recruit more drivers?

As it stands, indefinitely.

Also as it takes around 18 months - 2 years to recruit train and assess a new driver till they can drive on their own and are "productive" what would recruiting more drivers now achieve? And as TPE are out of franchise and in Direct Award, all the purse strings and top level decision making will be made by the DfT anyway. And how far do you go, how many spare men do you have each day at each location to cover for every possible eventuality at all times of the day all year round?

My view is that it has got sod all to do with the Union as to whether individual drivers work their rest days ot overtime. If they want to (and many do, and aren't overly fussed about 156 rest days) then why can't they?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

In short, yes.

Part of their argument is that the company should accept any increase in costs or reduction in % spare capacity as they have a higher % spare than industry norms and they have benefitted from the goodwill of drivers for so long.



As it stands, indefinitely.

Also as it takes around 18 months - 2 years to recruit train and assess a new driver till they can drive on their own and are "productive" what would recruiting more drivers now achieve? And as TPE are out of franchise and in Direct Award, all the purse strings and top level decision making will be made by the DfT anyway. And how far do you go, how many spare men do you have each day at each location to cover for every possible eventuality at all times of the day all year round?

My view is that it has got sod all to do with the Union as to whether individual drivers work their rest days ot overtime. If they want to (and many do, and aren't overly fussed about 156 rest days) then why can't they?

Because if you're in a union you stick by your colleagues (hence the name union) and if the union says that there's NO RDW agreement, then there's NO RDW, simple concept really and if you go against the union and then screw up big time on a RD, don't expect the union reps to come & get you out of it. You're on your own, because in many union members books it makes you nearly as bad as a SCAB.

 

[Agent_c]

Can someone tell us a bit more about what a RDW agreement is? Is it just an agreement on when and how much overtime will be available and paid? Does it commit the staff to ensuring a certain number of people volunteer, with people conscripted of volunteer numbers are thin, etc...

 

[notadriver]

If you don't support the union then things could go the way they do on the buses. 13 hour shifts, unpaid breaks, spreadover shifts, average 42 hour rosters and all for less than £10 an hour in many cases. No thanks !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can someone tell us a bit more about what a RDW agreement is? Is it just an agreement on when and how much overtime will be available and paid? Does it commit the staff to ensuring a certain number of people volunteer, with people conscripted of volunteer numbers are thin, etc...

It's an agreement that allows drivers to work their days off. ASLEF is committed to the removal of free day working.

 

[455driver]

Can someone tell us a bit more about what a RDW agreement is? Is it just an agreement on when and how much overtime will be available and paid? Does it commit the staff to ensuring a certain number of people volunteer, with people conscripted of volunteer numbers are thin, etc...

If everything is as it should be then ASLEF will sanction rest day working for a set period of time (normally a year) before reviewing the situation.
If things are not as they should be then ASLEF will either not renew the agreement or if there is a serious issue which has happened then ASLEF will withdraw the RDW agreement.

When the RDW agreement is in place drivers are free to volunteer to work their rest days if they want to but none are compelled to work so even though the agreement is in place there might be occasions when no drivers want to work their rest days and the company will go running to the papers complaining about 'militant staff not helping out etc' when the problem is actually that the company is running at below establishment and relying on the staff to work their rest days too much.

 

[ComUtoR]

In the thread about that scruffy looking fellow. There is mention about unified conditions. When ANY industry looks to a new pay deal you use your position relative to others in your sector.

With many other TOC's on a 4 day week it then makes sense that there is a level of fairness and unity across your sector that everyone is on similar conditions.

Lidl is advertising they are the first supermarket to offer the living wage to all employees. It is a reasonable supposition that all supermarket workers will push for the living wage.

There was also mention of wages on the NHS and they also use a system in which salaries are banded and ergo gives everyone a level playing field.

It is reasonable that a 4 day week has been requested.

There are many other points worth raising but no one listens anyway.

 

[Agent_c]

If everything is as it should be then ASLEF will sanction rest day working for a set period of time (normally a year) before reviewing the situation.
If things are not as they should be then ASLEF will either not renew the agreement or if there is a serious issue which has happened then ASLEF will withdraw the RDW agreement.

When the RDW agreement is in place drivers are free to volunteer to work their rest days if they want to but none are compelled to work so even though the agreement is in place there might be occasions when no drivers want to work their rest days and the company will go running to the papers complaining about 'militant staff not helping out etc' when the problem is actually that the company is running at below establishment and relying on the staff to work their rest days too much.

So basically, the company doesn't employ enough staff to go through normal operations, and its the staff's fault if anything goes wrong as a result.

Charming.

 

[bb21]

In short, yes.

Part of their argument is that the company should accept any increase in costs or reduction in % spare capacity as they have a higher % spare than industry norms and they have benefitted from the goodwill of drivers for so long.

So is it ASLEF's view that its members are not being adequately recompensed financially for not having a four-day week, compared to other TOCs? What is the pay like at TPE compared to other TOCs for similar hours but over four days?

 

[455driver]

So basically, the company doesn't employ enough staff to go through normal operations, and its the staff's fault if anything goes wrong as a result.

Charming.

Welcome to our world!

Don't forget that we are all militant in the eyes of a few posters on here, but I wonder if those same posters would be so accepting of giving up their days off regularly to bail the company out of situation entirely of the companies own making?

 

[HLE]

Ah that old rubbish coming out again. "You are well paid so have no right to try and better your working conditions". The race to the bottom.

What if all businesses thought your way?! Tesco saying 'we are making more money than asda so let's stop trying to better our profits'!

Comments about drivers pay like yours are only ever based on jealousy. Rather than post silly comments like that why not concentrate on improving your own pay and conditions like the train drivers here are...

Well said that man.

Too many people would take it lying down. Aren't TPE known for getting rid of drivers after incidents quicker than other companies?