Toton disused class 60s

[Peter Mugridge]

I've driven on the A52 which passes Toton numerous times (brother in law lives nearby and works at Toton depot). IMO the tram stop isn't all that far from the bridge that looks towards to the depot. I've not walked it myself, but would think it's probably 15 mins or so, be surprised if any longer than that.

Hope you enjoy your visit, would imagine there will be plenty of loco's and stored coal wagons on view.

Cheers

Ben

15 minutes? Good - I had thought it was further away. Is it signposted in any way ( obviously I'll check the route on Google Earth before I make my trip ).

 

[Townsend Hook]

It's interesting, we see the likes of Colas & DRS utilising assets as they require, making good use of older locomotives with relatively low values, and sourcing stock based on the work they have. At the other end of the scale is EWS/DBS/DBC, who to the casual observer have maintained consistent policies of massive waste of existing assets, over provision of replacement assets (66 & 67), and an attitude of such complacency that actively persuing work would seem to have been considered beneath them, giving away contracts to the compeition at quite a rate. It's no wonder they're in a mess of late.

On the subject of over-provision of replacement assets, the 66s were ordered in the context of the UK railfreight market twenty years ago, when things like coal and steel traffic were a lot stronger than today and, crucially, there were only really two players in the railfreight business. The 67s likewise were ordered for traffic that has almost completely dried up. As they say, hindsight is 20/20.

 

[BestWestern]

On the subject of over-provision of replacement assets, the 66s were ordered in the context of the UK railfreight market twenty years ago, when things like coal and steel traffic were a lot stronger than today and, crucially, there were only really two players in the railfreight business. The 67s likewise were ordered for traffic that has almost completely dried up. As they say, hindsight is 20/20.

Was it not the case that 250 was considered an excessive number of class 66s from quite early on? Even with the almost wholesale withdrawal of the entire BR fleet, including most of the useable assets, the 66s seem to have been short on work pretty much right from the start. As for there being only two players, had EWS had a more concerned approach about retaining it's work, there might not have been so many more players now.

 

[TimboM]

Will most of them now be beyond economic repair and so be cannibalised for spares and then scrapped (do they share any common components with any other classes)?

Depends what you mean "most" - there's 75 stored last time I checked. They range from refurbed "super tugs" that were in active use a couple of months ago which presumably could go back into service pretty readily to ones (including examples mentioned above) that are very clearly beyond economic repair - and then probably everything in between.

Demand is the key thing really to determine what's economically feasible (if no-one wants them, no-one's going to pay anything to get them going again). I can't really see more than a third (at most) of those stored ever having any use (and that would be if all options happened - HS2, sale abroad, sale to other FOCs etc.) By that token I guess "most" are beyond economic repair.

In terms of spares - they're most likely to be cannibalised to keep other active 60s going (or put any back into service if that does happen). Indeed some of the worst examples will already have been stripped of anything useful for this purpose.

The only things I can think of that may be remotely similar are 92s (also Brush built around the same time and common bodyshell) - however they're such different locos I can't see there being many common parts (if at all) - and good old DB also have rows of 92s rotting away and only have a few in service, so wouldn't need spares from 60s even if there were any.

 

[TimboM]

It's interesting, we see the likes of Colas & DRS utilising assets as they require, making good use of older locomotives with relatively low values, and sourcing stock based on the work they have. At the other end of the scale is EWS/DBS/DBC, who to the casual observer have maintained consistent policies of massive waste of existing assets, over provision of replacement assets (66 & 67), and an attitude of such complacency that actively persuing work would seem to have been considered beneath them, giving away contracts to the compeition at quite a rate. It's no wonder they're in a mess of late.

I can't help thinking a lot of it has to do with the financials relating to EWS' original acquisition of these locos upon privatisation.

Class 60s were something like £1.2m each to build (late-80s prices). Class 92s were c.£3m each (ditto). EWS (IIRC) obtained a sizeable chunk of the fleets of these locos only a few years into their 40-year design lives. I don't know exactly how much for, but I believe considerably less than the real cost of these assets to BR (aka the UK taxpayer).

From the EWS finance department's perspective, the asset value (and hence depreciation/cost of this) wasn't that great - so running costs etc. would be the main focus. Hence, the numbers would've stacked up more to just go and buy lots of new cheap locos from EMD instead. If they'd paid something more like a fair value for the traction they acquired, I can't help thinking they'd have invested more in using them and looked at ways of overcoming the challenges faced when the freight market changed.

On the other hand, companies that were in more of a "start-up" position (Colas, DRS, GBRf) had to acquire what they could and make use of those assets. All three companies have demonstrated that traction such as 60s, 92s and older kit such as 37s are still more than adequate if the right effort is put in.

 

[cjmillsnun]

A higher top speed and an ETH supply and these wouldn't be stored imo.

I doubt that. There are 67s in storage.

 

[43096]

I can't help thinking a lot of it has to do with the financials relating to EWS' original acquisition of these locos upon privatisation.



Class 60s were something like £1.2m each to build (late-80s prices). Class 92s were c.£3m each (ditto). EWS (IIRC) obtained a sizeable chunk of the fleets of these locos only a few years into their 40-year design lives. I don't know exactly how much for, but I believe considerably less than the real cost of these assets to BR (aka the UK taxpayer).



From the EWS finance department's perspective, the asset value (and hence depreciation/cost of this) wasn't that great - so running costs etc. would be the main focus. Hence, the numbers would've stacked up more to just go and buy lots of new cheap locos from EMD instead. If they'd paid something more like a fair value for the traction they acquired, I can't help thinking they'd have invested more in using them and looked at ways of overcoming the challenges faced when the freight market changed.

No, you are confusing the book value of an asset with the value of the business.

Starting with the asset, say a Class 60 was the £1.2m to buy that you say, and that accounting policy was to depreciate them over 20 years. By the time the loco was 5 years old it would have had a book value of £900k.

At that point the business is sold. Any business has a book value based on the net value of its assets and liabilities, but ultimately a business is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. The key point is that regardless of how much EWS paid BR for the trainload business, the book value at the point of sale is the same regardless. That includes the assets included in the sale, including our Class 60, which is still valued at £900k at that point.

 

[CosherB]

£250 million for 900 locos, 20,000 wagons and the associated business was a bit of a bargain for EWS!

 

[Crawley Ben]

15 minutes? Good - I had thought it was further away. Is it signposted in any way ( obviously I'll check the route on Google Earth before I make my trip ).

*if* my memory serves me right, head out of the tram station towards the main road and turn right when you get to the road. You will see a set of traffic lights in front of you. Turn left at these lights, and follow the footpath adjacent to the A52 dual carrigeway (signposted for M1 motorway and Derby) The bridge is a short way past the car layby and will be on your left hand side. You should have clear views of the depot and loco's etc. Be sure to double check the above etc before you head off & hope you enjoy your trip

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Just looked on Google Earth and they're showing the tram stop in the middle of a field, which I guess is not correct...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.9171142,-1.2720677,952m/data=!3m1!1e3

Could someone please draw on this image with Photoshop where the tram stop actually is and what the walking route is?

 

[najaB]

Just looked on Google Earth and they're showing the tram stop in the middle of a field, which I guess is not correct...

Bing maps places the tram stop in pretty much the same place: https://binged.it/2r7FRKN
And Google Street View shows that it's not a field: https://goo.gl/maps/knAVqfsTijB2

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Just looked on Google Earth and they're showing the tram stop in the middle of a field, which I guess is not correct...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.9171142,-1.2720677,952m/data=!3m1!1e3

Could someone please draw on this image with Photoshop where the tram stop actually is and what the walking route is?

Bing maps places the tram stop in pretty much the same place: https://binged.it/2r7FRKN
And Google Street View shows that it's not a field: https://goo.gl/maps/knAVqfsTijB2

Sticking the coordinates into Google Earth gives the same, but shows that the latest image available on Google Earth/Maps is from 2009

 

[Graeme]

There's a new park and ride facility at that spot - not yet shown on Google Maps:

http://www.thetram.net/Userfiles/PDFs/Maps/FULL NETWORK CITY MAP.pdf

Graeme

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Sticking the coordinates into Google Earth gives the same, but shows that the latest image available on Google Earth/Maps is from 2009

Interesting - the picture I linked to says 2017 on it...

 

[daikilo]

£250 million for 900 locos, 20,000 wagons and the associated business was a bit of a bargain for EWS!

No, really? Yes, it was heavily discounting the family silver, and we were the family, but not those who had an agenda to meet.

 

[Raul_Duke]

I thought one of the major issues with the 60's was that they use some quite complex, substantial and now completely obsolete 1980's electronics. Massive printed circuit boards and things about the size of a fridge that now could probably be shrunk to the size of your phone.


Whereas the old old BR diesels can be kept going by a reasonably competent blacksmith and some electrical tape.

 

[najaB]

I thought one of the major issues with the 60's was that they use some quite complex, substantial and now completely obsolete 1980's electronics. Massive printed circuit boards and things about the size of a fridge that now could probably be shrunk to the size of your phone.

Discrete component electronics are easy to maintain - a capacitor is a capacitor, a resistor is a resistor, etc. regardless of when it was made. It's integrated circuits and custom components that are difficult to replace.

 

[adrock1976]

Of the stored locos, are the engines started up periodically so as they don't seize up, or are they just simply abandoned?

 

[TimboM]

Of the stored locos, are the engines started up periodically so as they don't seize up, or are they just simply abandoned?

Pretty sure they're just 'abandoned' - certainly the ones that have been stored many years. I wouldn't be surprised if a good few of them wouldn't even start up these days.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

They will be drained of oil and fuel and batteries removed I expect. Removing flammable materials and ignition sources etc

 

[CosherB]

As there's been no new Super 60s processed in the last three years or so by DBC, does Toton even still have the capability to do such work, in the unlikely event there was the need to bring more 60s onto the mainline?

 

[berwicksfinest]

As there's been no new Super 60s processed in the last three years or so by DBC, does Toton even still have the capability to do such work, in the unlikely event there was the need to bring more 60s onto the mainline?

I suspect that the tooling and facilities still are available, However I would be surprised if the personnel are still there will the know how, and haven't been made redundant, re-located or walked

 

[furnessvale]

They will be drained of oil and fuel and batteries removed I expect. Removing flammable materials and ignition sources etc

Whereas the best thing to do with a stored engine is to fill it to the top with oil, but obviously don't try to start it later without draining back.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Whereas the best thing to do with a stored engine is to fill it to the top with oil, but obviously don't try to start it later without draining back.

Cant be doing that, that sounds like far too much common sense. This is the railway we are talking about....

XD

 

[Peter Mugridge]

And Google Street View shows that it's not a field: https://goo.gl/maps/knAVqfsTijB2

Having done a bit of Streetview from that link, I can't see where this "footpath next to the A52" is?

Where exactly should I walk? I'm making the attempt tomorrow...

 

[Townsend Hook]

They will be drained of oil and fuel and batteries removed I expect. Removing flammable materials and ignition sources etc

I'd be very surprised if the engine oil was totally drained, as otherwise they will simply seize and be totally unusable in the future, if the loco is returned to service or the engine is used as a spare for the operational fleet.

 

[TimboM]

We of little faith (ish)... WNXX are reporting today that there's a project to look at GBRf hiring 5 or 6 Class 60s from DB Cargo, with DBC and Brush (Wabtec) involved in restoring the locos involved.

No indications as to what the intended use is for, or whether this is a tester for more to come.

Also will almost certainly be some of the recently stored examples/ones in better condition and not those in a bad way on "condemned row". But still, a glimmer of light...?

https://flic.kr/p/poD51w
(sorry, couldn't resist hunting out a mock-up of a 60 in GBRf colours!)

 

[gazthomas]

I feel DBC / DBS have destroyed the business they bought. EWS in its early days was so adventureous

 

[TimboM]

As there's been no new Super 60s processed in the last three years or so by DBC, does Toton even still have the capability to do such work, in the unlikely event there was the need to bring more 60s onto the mainline?

I suspect that the tooling and facilities still are available, However I would be surprised if the personnel are still there will the know how, and haven't been made redundant, re-located or walked

The report that Wabtec/Brush are going to be involved to help restore the potential GBRf (hired) 60s suggests the answer - as expected - is "no".

 

[Peter Mugridge]

*if* my memory serves me right, head out of the tram station towards the main road and turn right when you get to the road. You will see a set of traffic lights in front of you. Turn left at these lights, and follow the footpath adjacent to the A52 dual carrigeway (signposted for M1 motorway and Derby) The bridge is a short way past the car layby and will be on your left hand side. You should have clear views of the depot and locos etc. Be sure to double check the above etc before you head off & hope you enjoy your trip