Totally confused about on the spot fine

[Robbiew]

Hi,

I use a work oyster card and have never travelled in London using one before (i am a country boy). I was on the underground a d went though an open ticket gate without scaning it as I simply didn't know you were meant to. I arrived in st Pancras and tried to get through but it went red and apparently there wasn't enough cash on the oyster card. I spoke to one of the guards who said I needed to pay 20 quid, Ilsaid I didn't want to and he took my address and name and said someone would be In touch in 28 days, he called this and appeal. I didn't realise this may end up in court or I would of just paid the fine.
I had a second oyster card with enough cash on, and also a load of valid tickets from "London terminals" to my destination. Am I likely to end up with a criminal record? I'd rather just pay a fine.

 

[bb21]

I think it has gone beyond the "just pay a fine" stage as you put it.

If using Oyster PAYG, you must still touch in and out correctly even if the gates are already open, otherwise how is the system going to know where you started and ended your journey?

The £20 charge was for a Penalty Fare, which is for when you made a mistake and no intentional foul play was suspected, and was a measure to quickly dispose of a matter in lieu of reporting you for prosecution for travelling without a valid ticket, so yes, it would have been much easier to pay the Penalty Fare there.

Since you refused the offer of a Penalty Fare, this matter has now proceeded beyond that stage and you have been reported for consideration for prosecution. (Given the amount of £20, I assume that you exited at St Pancras Thameslink station rather than the London Underground station?)

You will now have to wait for their letter to arrive before replying telling them your side of the story, and whether you want to fight this, or try and settle the matter out of court.

A little unfortunate as had the work Oyster had enough money on it, you would have simply been charged a maximum fare on exit, but unfortunately it did not, and you were therefore caught. I was myself caught in this situation once when Oyster first started, but had sufficient money so did not encounter any problems as a result.

 

[34D]

Where did you travel from? It's unusual for the underground to have barriers that were ajar.

 

[Clip]

Where did you travel from? It's unusual for the underground to have barriers that were ajar.

I suspect they may have been using Thameslink given the PF at £20.

 

[jon0844]

Out of interest, how did you think Oyster worked? Especially if you have two of them?

And even if you somehow thought just walking by a gate was enough to touch in, how could you think that could even work if there was not enough money on the card?

(This is something the train operator will be wondering too, I'm sure)

 

[ComUtoR]

You have 2 oyster cards but haven't traveled in london before?

I'll assume these are your first oyster cards ever. Was you not aware you had to tap in and out ?

If you have used them before and they are yours then you should be aware that you tap in and out. If you wasn't aware and this was your first time. Was it not explained you had to charge the oyster and tap in and out before you traveled ?

Did you travel "outside your zone" without any PAYG credit ?

Who's oyster cards were they and which didn't work ? If its your work oyster then I would say that your employer has the responsibility to charge it. I use a work oyster and I am never aware how much is on the card until I tap it.

 

[island]

It would appear you've committed a criminal offence of travelling on a train without having previously paid your fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof. You made matters more serious when you chose not to accept the £20 Penalty Fare normally offered to passengers who make mistakes and therefore you will be reported for prosecution. The railway usually offers to resolve these cases for a fee as well, but you will have little change out of £100. Start saving.

 

[Antman]

Out of interest, how did you think Oyster worked? Especially if you have two of them?

And even if you somehow thought just walking by a gate was enough to touch in, how could you think that could even work if there was not enough money on the card?

(This is something the train operator will be wondering too, I'm sure)

In fairness a lot of people make that sort of mistake, it may be obvious to most of us on here but not to the non enthusiast passenger

 

[najaB]

In fairness a lot of people make that sort of mistake, it may be obvious to most of us on here but not to the non enthusiast passenger

I think the fact that a PF was offered means that it was accepted that it might well be an innocent mistake.

 

[tony6499]

Hi,

I use a work oyster card and have never travelled in London using one before (i am a country boy). I was on the underground a d went though an open ticket gate without scaning it as I simply didn't know you were meant to. I arrived in st Pancras and tried to get through but it went red and apparently there wasn't enough cash on the oyster card. I spoke to one of the guards who said I needed to pay 20 quid, Ilsaid I didn't want to and he took my address and name and said someone would be In touch in 28 days, he called this and appeal. I didn't realise this may end up in court or I would of just paid the fine.
I had a second oyster card with enough cash on, and also a load of valid tickets from "London terminals" to my destination. Am I likely to end up with a criminal record? I'd rather just pay a fine.

It doesn't make sense

 

[Shempz]

I'm not usually a cynic on the threads here, but this one doesn't quite add up to me.

The OP has 2 Oyster cards one of which is is his work Oyster and the other I'm assuming is a personal Oyster with £20 credit on it. He uses his work Oyster but has never travelled in London with it. He failed to touch in with either card when on the way to St Pancras.

None of that story in its current guise makes much sense to me.

 

[Chris999999]

Hi,


I had .... a load of valid tickets from "London terminals" to my destination.

Why would you have all these tickets and not use them?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why would you have all these tickets and not use them?

Perhaps they are used but not collected - we don't really know...

 

[jon0844]

In fairness a lot of people make that sort of mistake, it may be obvious to most of us on here but not to the non enthusiast passenger

Don't you get a guide with Oyster when you get one, or a wallet that says you must touch in/out etc.

I'm unsure how anyone would think it can work if you just have one in your pocket, don't touch in and don't have sufficient funds.

If only enthusiasts know, then I fear for the millions of people using Oyster every day who must have been lucky up until now.

 

[yorkie]

... I spoke to one of the guards who said I needed to pay 20 quid....

They were treating you as having made a mistake, for which the charge is £20 (in certain circumstances, for several Train Companies) and keeps the matter out of court. However it appears you chose not to, so the matter may well now proceed to court...

Am I likely to end up with a criminal record? I'd rather just pay a fine.

...if you are taken to court, and are found guilty, it will probably just be a fine (plus court costs, of course), as the Train Company is likely to prosecute you under Railway Byelaw 18, which is a non-recordable offence.

However if they believe they have sufficient evidence for a Regulation of Railways Act offence, and you're found guilty of that, then it would additionally be a criminal record on top of the fine. For more details see RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 8 - Legal

You may be able to reach an out of court settlement and avoid the matter going to court. This might be something the Train Company offers to you.

 

[gray1404]

I think the fact that a PF was offered means that it was accepted that it might well be an innocent mistake.

I agree with you. I am seeing it time and time again though though the cases on here, when customers are offered the option of PF. They see it as a fine, rather then a PF for making an honest mistake. The other problem is that, due to the nature being offered at the time of the mistake/dispute, a customer my in the heat of the moment refuse it and end up being reported. The reality is if they'd simply accepted the PF at the time, once they'd calmed down they may just decide to avoid themselves further bother and simply pay it.

I still hear the occasional RPI speaking in terms of "fining you £20" rather then to "issue a PF". Use of language is very important.

 

[CheesyChips]

The language used is definitely an issue. To draw a parallel, a number of years ago I worked as a store detective for a large high street chain and we would routinely detain shoplifters throughout the day. As long as they fell within certain criteria we would issue a notice of intended recovery through civil means in addition to the criminal prosecution, often known as Civil Recovery.

Some of my less tactful colleagues would hand this official document over and tell the PIC they were being 'fined' which rarely ended without an exchange of profanities.

When it was introduced tactfully and with clear explaination there was very rarely more than a grumble.

One needs to polish the turd before handing it over

 

[benk1342]

I think the insufficient-funds issue is a red herring. My assumption on reading the OP was that there were insufficient funds to pay the Maximum Fare (hence the gates wouldn't let the OP out) but there would have been sufficient funds for the correct fare.

So I don't think it is fair to say that the OP thought it was OK to use an Oyster with insufficient funds.

 

[Antman]

Don't you get a guide with Oyster when you get one, or a wallet that says you must touch in/out etc.

I'm unsure how anyone would think it can work if you just have one in your pocket, don't touch in and don't have sufficient funds.

If only enthusiasts know, then I fear for the millions of people using Oyster every day who must have been lucky up until now.

Well obviously people who use oyster regularly will know but there are always going to be a few occasional or first time users who get caught out.

I was on a SET service recently and RPI's found a woman who spoke little English (or maybe it just suited her not to?) who hadn't touched in for that reason, in the end they just asked her to jump out at the next station (Blackheath) and touch in and they would hold the train whilst she did so.

 

[jon0844]

I've seen tourists given some leeway (and this was an FCC RPI!) because they didn't fully understand Oyster - in this case, having travelled beyond East Croydon to get to the airport, and being sold a single ticket at normal price (no PF, no double standard fare, no threat of prosecution). I am 99% sure she wasn't trying it on, and she did attempt to speak English rather than those who probably speak it but pretend they can't.

However, I am not sure how this could be a similar situation. A work Oyster? Sort of implies regular usage, not the first day of getting one and not knowing what it is - and somehow not thinking that you'd need to present a card to someone/something if you didn't otherwise buy a ticket before travel (such as going to a ticket machine, buying a ticket and then loading it onto a smartcard).

Plus, most people from abroad probably have a similar smartcard system and understand the basics.

Anyway, what I think doesn't matter, but I doubt the TOC will believe the story and just drop it.

 

[island]

I would imagine authorised collectors take a pragmatic approach to this sort of case. If the evidence suggests that a person is non-UK resident, it follows that it would be more difficult to enforce a PF or prosecution as against the person, so the authorised collector may determine that the approach likely to secure most net revenue to the railway is other than issuance of a PF or reporting for prosecution.

 

[blakey1152]

I've seen tourists given some leeway (and this was an FCC RPI!) because they didn't fully understand Oyster - in this case, having travelled beyond East Croydon to get to the airport, and being sold a single ticket at normal price (no PF, no double standard fare, no threat of prosecution). I am 99% sure she wasn't trying it on, and she did attempt to speak English rather than those who probably speak it but pretend they can't.

However, I am not sure how this could be a similar situation. A work Oyster? Sort of implies regular usage, not the first day of getting one and not knowing what it is - and somehow not thinking that you'd need to present a card to someone/something if you didn't otherwise buy a ticket before travel (such as going to a ticket machine, buying a ticket and then loading it onto a smartcard).

Plus, most people from abroad probably have a similar smartcard system and understand the basics.

Anyway, what I think doesn't matter, but I doubt the TOC will believe the story and just drop it.

A work oyster could also be an oyster card with just prepay on it that a company has that they loan to employees if they have to travel to London. This may be the first time the OP had been given this work oyster.

 

[Haywain]

A work oyster could also be an oyster card with just prepay on it that a company has that they loan to employees if they have to travel to London. This may be the first time the OP had been given this work oyster.

That could well be the case, but it doesn't remove the responsibility of the user to ensure that it has sufficient credit and is used correctly.

 

[jon0844]

If the employer said it was a Travelcard and you don't have to touch in, I could understand that (just) but you're advised to touch in, and doing so prevents the problem of discovering there was a problem when caught at the other end.

What confuses me is the OP said he had another Oyster which did have money on it. How is that normally used? If PAYG then how does the OP pay by not thinking you need to touch in.

I'd be wondering if someone was only touching out and paying maximum fare to avoid an even higher fare (e.g doughnutting) because they didn't start from somewhere within the Oyster area.

Of course if someone was doing that, they'd surely pay a PF and consider themselves very lucky!

 

[najaB]

What confuses me is the OP said he had another Oyster which did have money on it. How is that normally used? If PAYG then how does the OP pay by not thinking you need to touch in.

That also confuses me - the OP says he doesn't travel in London but somehow has not one but two Oyster cards.

 

[swt_passenger]

That also confuses me - the OP says he doesn't travel in London but somehow has not one but two Oyster cards.

He only said he didn't use Oyster to travel in London.

I think the 'load of valid tickets from London Terminals to my destination' possibly suggests a certain familiarity with the place...

Does anyone else come away with the idea that there's a jam jar in the office that everyone chucks various cards and tickets in for communal use?

 

[SickyNicky]

in the interest of fairness, we have a "Jam Jar" or the equivalent, which contains five "pool" Oyster cards. Many of our staff (based in Hereford) have never used Oyster before and have no idea how to use it. I consistently see unresolved journeys that I have to sort out with the Oyster helpline, even though I tell everyone to touch in and touch out.

However, all our cards are on the auto-topup scheme, so they will always have enough credit on them.

 

[Haywain]

He only said he didn't use Oyster to travel in London.

Although this may cause one to wonder why he also had "a second" Oyster card.

 

[gray1404]

I think the staff in your company need to learn to use Oyster or, if that is not possible, obtain paper tickets (or day travel cards, perhaps as an add on when buying your tickets to London). The concept of Oyster is simple in terms of it being touch in and touch out. There is helpful user guides online too on the TfL website. I say this in light of the situation raised in the OP and also the fact you say you've had to call the helpline a number of times to get incompleate journeys resolved.

 

[SickyNicky]

I think the staff in your company need to learn to use Oyster or, if that is not possible, obtain paper tickets (or day travel cards, perhaps as an add on when buying your tickets to London). The concept of Oyster is simple in terms of it being touch in and touch out. There is helpful user guides online too on the TfL website. I say this in light of the situation raised in the OP and also the fact you say you've had to call the helpline a number of times to get incompleate journeys resolved.

The point is that many people rarely, if ever, travel to London, and have never come across the Oyster system. You tell people to touch in and touch out, of course, but it's a new experience to many, who get flustered when presented with technology like this, or don't see any barriers at their exit station, or the barriers are open.

I am not going to purchase expensive travelcards for staff who don't need them and not all fares have U1* type destinations available. Even if they did, people often require flexibility, or buses, and Oyster gives them both whilst only charging what needs to be charged.

Anyway, my point is that just because you have a company issued Oyster card, doesn't mean that you've ever visited London. Just to be fair. But anyway, that's only part of the story. If the OP has "a load of valid tickets from "London terminals" to my destination", they are more than likely to be familiar with the Oyster system.