TOCs Turn Commuters Into Criminals

[MidnightFlyer]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/oct/23/train-fare-dodging-commuters

Apperently rail firms policies turn commuters into crimanls, over to you guys.

 

[Ferret]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/oct/23/train-fare-dodging-commuters

Apperently rail firms policies turn commuters into crimanls, over to you guys.

Drivel. Utter drivel. Taking to one side my dislike for the newspaper concerned (it's no better than the Mail or the Mirror), the simple fact is that the TOCs are perfectly entitled to enforce the byelaws. The example in the article involves somebody being sat in first class without a first class ticket - a clear byelaw offence! As for the gibber about legal representation, I refer you to a previous thread where it was mentioned that any breach of the byelaws is a strict liability offence, and as such there is no defence available! You've been reported because you did it, and the only way of getting off the charge is to find a legal technicality - in 99.9% of cases this will not be possible. As per usual, I'm afraid we have a case of a journalist who doesn't know what they're talking about whipping up hysteria by writing a very poorly researched article.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'll just say I'm not supporting this article, and will not comment after being advised to keep my nose out of ticketing matters by a superior on here.

 

[MCR247]

I'll just say I'm not supporting this article, and will not comment after being advised to keep my nose out of ticketing matters by a superior on here.

The point in that post being what exactly? Apart from trying to stir things up?

 

[yorksrob]

According to the article conductors are apparently given a different brief to revenue protection officers, suggesting that they are supposed to deal with passengers in similar situations in a different way (is there anyone in the know who can confirm?). If this is the case (feel free to confirm if it isn't) surely staff on the same train should have the same guidelines in how to deal with passengers in a given situation?

If it's in the public press, it's probably right that it should be debated on here - one way or another.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The point in that post being what exactly? Apart from trying to stir things up?

Just to say I was not posting the article to support it or slate it - I just wanted to bring it to everyone's attention
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Apart from trying to stir things up?

Stir what up, see my above post?

 

[MCR247]

Just to say I was not posting the article to support it or slate it - I just wanted to bring it to everyone's attention
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Stir what up, see my above post?

The second part, saying 'i was told not to post...etc'

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The second part, saying 'i was told not to post...etc'

That wasn't sh** stirring, that was the truth

 

[MCR247]

but why did you need to put it? Anyway, I think I'll just leave it at that

 

[CarterUSM]

I think the article and its content are moot anyway, many scenarios of ticketing validity/split ticketing/CoC/ bylaw infringing/ complaints or comments on service have been and continue to be discussed on here anyway. It does seem a bit of a non story all the same, or perhaps i hear of these things too often....................

 

[yorkie]

Brilliant link within that article for a victory for customers over the dodgy RPIs! (link)

I am, and always will be, totally opposed to driver only trains which have no member of staff checking tickets, and have a Penalty Fares scheme, then once a blue moon a poorly-trained badly-educated person with bad manners will come along and completely disregard the rules and harrass innocent passengers. 90% of the time the actual dodgers get away with it. It's an abysmal attempt at saving money. The losers are the conductors who lose their jobs, taxpayers who have to fund the loss of revenue, and genuine customers who get harassed.

Penalty Fares and Driver Only trains should be abolished immediately. All trains should have a conductor/ticket examiner.

The TOCs who engage in such activities deserve all the bad press they get.

Ferret - it's not "drivel". You won't experience these sort of dodgy goings on, as XC do not operate a PF scheme and treat it's customers as criminals. The TOCs who dispense with your services and hire thugs to harrass people are just as much an enemy to yourself as they are to us!

Wilson claims these RPOs/RPIs "are a law unto themselves. They make up the rules as they go along, and rely on people being scared of them, and of having a criminal record".

Some of them are exactly like that, and do indeed make up the rules.

In case anyone has forgotten, this is what can happen.

I've also experienced an RPI take a permit to travel from a customer, then deal with someone else, get off the train with the permit to travel to be replaced by another RPI who then attempts to issue a PF. Fortunately an off-duty guard witnessed this so the RPI wasn't able to succeed.

I've also seen a report into dodgy goings on at FCC.

The media are right to expose this.
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According to the article conductors are apparently given a different brief to revenue protection officers, suggesting that they are supposed to deal with passengers in similar situations in a different way (is there anyone in the know who can confirm?). If this is the case (feel free to confirm if it isn't) surely staff on the same train should have the same guidelines in how to deal with passengers in a given situation?

If it's in the public press, it's probably right that it should be debated on here - one way or another.

This is completely true, yes. On certain (despicable) TOCs. Not TOCs you or I would use much at all, so we won't experience this. But it is true.

 

[jkdd77]

Brilliant link within that article for a victory for customers over the dodgy RPIs! (link)

He was fined £55 for the strict liability offence [technically a criminal conviction], so it was hardly a victory for the customer, even if costs were awarded in his favour.

 

[Mojo]

Since when have prosecutions been carried out under the Railway Byelaws? When I was involved in similar discussions a few years ago all prosecutions were carried out under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 which requires intent to be proven.

The CPS website also says that most prosecutions will be carried out under the 1889 Act, as does the DfT Website. In addition a Google search shows results from other forums with people threatened under the 1889 Act and not the Byelaws.

 

[atomicdanny]

I'm not going in to this arguement since I don't know all the facts (since there will be no doubt those that do that and others which are the opposite, even though the media will now say that all guards / conductors do it....)

Saying that though I like their comment on the east croydon picture! "Commuters board a train at East Croydon - but how many were able to buy tickets?", it has ticket barriers how would people without tickets get in without one?

 

[yorkie]

Saying that though I like their comment on the east croydon picture! "Commuters board a train at East Croydon - but how many were able to buy tickets?", it has ticket barriers how would people without tickets get in without one?

By boarding at another station and changing at East Croydon? It's a busy interchange station! Admittedly they didn't use the best example.
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He was fined £55 for the strict liability offence [technically a criminal conviction], so it was hardly a victory for the customer, even if costs were awarded in his favour.

Yes, I realise that now. We need to get the law changed. The way it is at the moment, a particularly nasty RPI can get someone a criminal record if they simply walk through a First class compartment! That stinks.

 

[atomicdanny]

By boarding at another station and changing at East Croydon? It's a busy interchange station! Admittedly they didn't use the best example.

Good point, I didn't think of that

 

[Sapphire Blue]

I'll just say I'm not supporting this article, and will not comment after being advised to keep my nose out of ticketing matters by a superior on here.

Its a shame Matt, that you believe people on here to be superior to you, and by inference, that you are inferior.
:cry::cry::cry:

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Its a shame Matt, that you believe people on here to be superior to you, and by inference, that you are inferior.
:cry::cry::cry:

When I said 'superiors', I meant more powerful, not necessarily making me inferior.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

When I said 'superiors', I meant more powerful, not necessarily making me inferior.

Ah yes the powerful admins, who at a moments notice can make people disappear without tra

 

[ainsworth74]

Ah yes the powerful admins, who at a moments notice can make people disappear without tra

Hey has anyone seen Sapphire Blue? I could have sworn they were just here?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Ah yes the powerful admins, who at a moments notice can make people disappear without tra

That's quite good . I was also referencing to five others.

 

[yorkie]

That's quite good . I was also referencing to five others.

I think several people have advised you to think before posting when it comes to ticketing matters in particular, not just admins/moderators. I have not told you to not post, however I have instead asked you to do a little research before posting, particularly when it comes to people asking for advice (e.g. if you post on a Liverpool-London via LM topic, don't suggest changing at Crewe/Brum, that sort of thing). I'm sure no-one has not asked you to "keep your nose out" of ticketing matters?! (If this has happened, send me a PM).

 

[asylumxl]

In my experience there are alot of RPI staff in London, who like Yorkie said, are badly trained and have atrocious manners. I'm not saying this is true of all of them, quite the opposite, but it seems the numbers of such people are on the rise.

Some of them do honestly think they are a god like figure, who cannot be questioned nor overridden. Several times I've had one try and tell me my ticket isn't valid, when I know full well it is. When I told them I had a copy of the ticket restrictions from Avantix NFM, they were usually quick to back down.

They prey on the fact that the your average customer will not be aware of such things, and will accept their ruling to avoid confrontation. I think it's atrocious that they, and by extension their employers, victimise perfectly respectable customers whom without they'd have no business. It's all in the name of greed, making a buck, and it is NOT acceptable.

The general consensus among alot of rail enthusiasts is that if you make the mistake, you are liable and you should accept the punishment. Tell me this, if you paid for a coffee, would you accept it if it was wrong? If you chose to not accept it, if they told you it was your fault and they did not make the mistake, would you accept that?

As a reprisal to anyone who may disagree, this is my personal experience as a commuter into London, who regularly deals with the TOCs involved. If you are a user of the same services, feel free to comment, but if you are someone from an entirely different area, who has little or no experience of these services, please do not comment.

 

[yorkie]

That's a good post, asylumxl. Travelling on a long distance TOC like XC, or even a commuter line in the Glasgow area, is a world away from travelling on certain TOCs in the London area. I think some people probably have difficulty accepting this problem exists, which is understandable as, they probably can't imagine it happening. But it does, and you have to experience it to believe it and to realise how disgraceful it is. It wouldn't happen in any other service industry.

 

[asylumxl]

That's a good post, asylumxl. Travelling on a long distance TOC like XC, or even a commuter line in the Glasgow area, is a world away from travelling on certain TOCs in the London area. I think some people probably have difficulty accepting this problem exists, which is understandable as, they probably can't imagine it happening. But it does, and you have to experience it to believe it and to realise how disgraceful it is. It wouldn't happen in any other service industry.

I've dealt almost daily with the RPI of a certain TOC, whoms name can be abbreviated to three letters. They are rude to the point even their own staff have had issues with them. Luckily some of the ones whom used to be a regular problem have not appeared for a while..

 

[Mojo]

Saying that though I like their comment on the east croydon picture! "Commuters board a train at East Croydon - but how many were able to buy tickets?", it has ticket barriers how would people without tickets get in without one?

Easy; double gating, sandwich/dumb-bell ticketing, boarding from an ungated station, or showing a fake or invalid ticket to the gateline staff.

 

[flymo]

Several times I've had one try and tell me my ticket isn't valid, when I know full well it is. When I told them I had a copy of the ticket restrictions from Avantix NFM, they were usually quick to back down.

Sorry, but if revenue protection inspectors are trying to extort money from people that have valid tickets then that is illegal and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, up to and including prison sentences for the revenue protection inspector. No excuses.

Crikey, the impression that I get from reading these forums is that if this were in WW1, if you have an invalid ticket an rpi (sorry can't bring myself to use upper case) would take you outside the station and shoot you*.

* Bullets £25 each. No refunds or concessions.

....and....rest.

 

[asylumxl]

Sorry, but if revenue protection inspectors are trying to extort money from people that have valid tickets then that is illegal and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, up to and including prison sentences for the revenue protection inspector. No excuses.

Which is why they back down and some have disappeared .

Hong Kong huh?

 

[scotsman]

Ferret - it's not "drivel". You won't experience these sort of dodgy goings on, as XC do not operate a PF scheme and treat it's customers as criminals. The TOCs who dispense with your services and hire thugs to harrass people are just as much an enemy to yourself as they are to us!

True dat. An XC TM had a go at me and a friend for not purchasing tickets at Dundee (for the record, we'd arrived off a railtour we'd been Stewarding and there no TVMs on the section of the station we were, beyond the barriers - we were also in uniform).

Her tone made it clear that she thought we were fare evaders. We explained the situation to her and she let us buy tickets with our railcards, but only after I had to explain to her how my railcard worked (!).

 

[Ferret]

Ferret - it's not "drivel". You won't experience these sort of dodgy goings on, as XC do not operate a PF scheme and treat it's customers as criminals. The TOCs who dispense with your services and hire thugs to harrass people are just as much an enemy to yourself as they are to us!

Yes it is drivel. I understand (and broadly agree with) your position on the misuse of PFs by RPIs, but the prosecution under byelaws issue as raised by those articles is a whole different ballgame. If any TOC's employee is getting up to dodgy practices with MG11 forms, then they deserve everything they get - last time I looked, perjury and perverting the course of justice were both still pretty serious offences.
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True dat. An XC TM had a go at me and a friend for not purchasing tickets at Dundee (for the record, we'd arrived off a railtour we'd been Stewarding and there no TVMs on the section of the station we were, beyond the barriers - we were also in uniform).

Her tone made it clear that she thought we were fare evaders. We explained the situation to her and she let us buy tickets with our railcards, but only after I had to explain to her how my railcard worked (!).

I never understand why TM's take that attitude. So, you're walking through the train and you're presented with someone who wants to buy a ticket. Bearing in mind, you're loosely monitored on average ticket sales per shift and also that ticket sales bring in commission, do you a) give the bloke a hard time (for no particular reason), get yourself into a needless argument causing you to miss other potential sales or b) sell him a ticket, thank him very much for keeping you in the boss' good books and then go and check the rest of the Dundee joiners and sell them tickets too?

Anyone out there having even the remotest difficulty figuring out the right answer? No, I didn't think so.