TOC to FOC, any regrets?

[Owen T]

I see that all the big hitters are recruiting at the moment and freight driving is what brought me to the railway in the first place, though im a qualified pax driver now, due to it being the only way in at the time and the freight industry being unstable...

Anyway, my main concern is the time-bands for booking on whilst having a young family, and the nearest depot being an hours drive.

If anyone has any experience or input to help my decision that would be great.

 

[ComUtoR]

Other than the cash. Live as close to your depot as possible. Maybe then look at the T&Cs for some intricate details that can make or break your day/week.

 

[Atishyou]

Is there any foc in particular you are looking at?

 

[Owen T]

I think Freightliner Doncaster will be my most likely option, but also DB at ‘East Midlands Hub’ which im assuming is Toton.

 

[Dogbox]

I see that all the big hitters are recruiting at the moment and freight driving is what brought me to the railway in the first place, though im a qualified pax driver now, due to it being the only way in at the time and the freight industry being unstable...

Anyway, my main concern is the time-bands for booking on whilst having a young family, and the nearest depot being an hours drive.

If anyone has any experience or input to help my decision that would be great.

I would say your main concern is, how volatile freight is, you will be the junior man at the depot and the first out the door when redundancies come round again, which I'm sure they will.

 

[lammergeier]

More money in pax work these days it seems, plus decent rosters and more job security. Not something I would do but good luck if you decide to jump.

Make sure any contract offered is permanent, heard some are now offering fixed term contracts.

 

[Owen T]

Should the worst happen, some sort of redundancy package would be offered though am I right?

 

[lammergeier]

Should the worst happen, some sort of redundancy package would be offered though am I right?

You would hope so, but that assumes "the worst" is that you just get made redundant. What happens if the company folds? Not saying it is likely but it did happen a few years back to Fastline.

If you have a good record then you'd probably be enployed by another firm, but have a couple of Spads in a yard and you're on thin ice.

 

[Atishyou]

I think Freightliner Doncaster will be my most likely option, but also DB at ‘East Midlands Hub’ which im assuming is Toton.

I know DB have four time bands - a/b/c/d - which are 00:00-05:59/06:00-11:59/12:00-17:59/18:00-23:59.

You can be moved out of your time band, but whatever you are moved comes off your shift. Eg if you are band a and you are then booked on a 1200 start, you've moved 6hrs and 1 minute, so the longest shift you can do is 5:29 if you get me.

I think Freightliner have three time bands, although not really sure what they are.

It really depends on your personal life and what suits you, although freight is recruiting, that may not continue. Pm me if you want.

 

[The One]

Thing is freight is booming again and it’s not with the coal as we all know that was the down turn.I known several people to leave passengers to go to freight and vice versa

 

[Owen T]

I know DB have four time bands - a/b/c/d - which are 00:00-05:59/06:00-11:59/12:00-17:59/18:00-23:59.

You can be moved out of your time band, but whatever you are moved comes off your shift. Eg if you are band a and you are then booked on a 1200 start, you've moved 6hrs and 1 minute, so the longest shift you can do is 5:29 if you get me.

I think Freightliner have three time bands, although not really sure what they are.

It really depends on your personal life and what suits you, although freight is recruiting, that may not continue. Pm me if you want.

I have read that Freightliner timebands is 0001-0800, 0801-1600, 1601-0000 or thereabouts.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Bromley boy]

Should the worst happen, some sort of redundancy package would be offered though am I right?

Keep in mind you’d only become entitled to a redundancy payment after 2 years. If they let you go before that you’d only get your contractual notice.

 

[Owen T]

Good info keep it coming guys.

• Route learning duration?
• Pecking order? (new guy gets the crap jobs for example)
• Average shift duration?
• Overtime?
• Breaks?
• Holidays/time off/mutual swaps etc
• Does every shift include driving turns or do you sit spare, shunt? form trains?

Thanks.

 

[Atishyou]

DB - sent you a pm

 

[GB]

I would say your main concern is, how volatile freight is, you will be the junior man at the depot and the first out the door when redundancies come round again, which I'm sure they will.

I would not say freight is volatile, there are certainly ebbs and flows to a degree but its not as bad as some make out. How the particular company deals with a downturn is another story. Also, last in first out is no longer used as sole criteria so providing you are passed your probation period you will have just as much right as anyone else.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I would not say freight is volatile, there are certainly ebbs and flows to a degree but its not as bad as some make out. How the particular company deals with a downturn is another story. Also, last in first out is no longer used as sole criteria so providing you are passed your probation period you will have just as much right as anyone else.

There are a surprising number of self appointed 'freight experts' on the railway who have never worked freight before but feel suitably 'competent' to make sweeping comments like that.
That isn't a particular dig at anyone here but grow increasingly bored of these 'experts' who in reality have little knowledge of what they're talking about.
It's not all doom and gloom in freight world and there are plenty of freight drivers who have been there for many years.

 

[TheEdge]

There are a surprising number of self appointed 'freight experts' on the railway who have never worked freight before but feel suitably 'competent' to make sweeping comments like that.
That isn't a particular dig at anyone here but grow increasingly bored of these 'experts' who in reality have little knowledge of what they're talking about.
It's not all doom and gloom in freight world and there are plenty of freight drivers who have been there for many years.

My general impression as a TOC driver is that freight depots around me, such as Ipswich and Felixstowe where most of the work is intermodal have fairly steady work and are stable, but depots with lots of bulk work and smaller contracts are much riskier. Is that true?

 

[142094]

The doom and gloom came from the situation with the coal traffic, and that I would hope was a major one off never to be repeated.

One thing to consider is that, if one FOC loses work, another one picks it up. No FOC out there at the minute has enough drivers so when the contracts do change, they have to advertise again to fill the newly created vacancies.

 

[GB]

It should be noted that when coal dropped through the floor not one GBRf employee was made redundant. In fact in the life of GB, I think only about 30 people have ever been made redndant and that was due to the collapse of SSI and the Lackenby steel plant in 2015....some of the more lucky one were able to get other jobs in the company.

 

[142094]

Also depends on what you are looking for in terms of the working day. Some 11 hours shifts I did on the passenger side would mean just about all driving with two minimum 30 minute breaks. One 11 hour shift on freight and I've travelled 5 miles to and from a depot and shunted for 6 hours.

 

[Crazyb]

I think Freightliner Doncaster will be my most likely option, but also DB at ‘East Midlands Hub’ which im assuming is Toton.

Im not sure, but I'm there maybe a Intermodal depot at Donny now as well has a HH depot. When I worked for Freightliner they were still trying to set a depot up there, but HH guys were coving the work.

Im not sure if this is the case still.

I've worked for Freightliner the day it was set up basically, from being TUPED over from RFD. I'm now at a TOC.

I can't answer your question on time bands, I was a Intermodal driver, so I worked to a roster like a TOC.

Intermodal is the better, more regular work and more stable, but they are only on 45k, plus the 1800 sign on. Freightliner drivers are the lowest paid drivers, when once we were the 3rd highest.

For me, I loved the freight. I was brought up on it from the early age of 16/17 and gone through all the process of losing work to gaining work, no payrise's at Freightliner and the loss of drivers, over the years.

At a TOC, you defo get looked after, loads of benefits, nice mess rooms, free tea and coffee, no stupid night turns, no 4 hr movements off spare, no stupid start times (not at my depot), my last turn gets in just after midnight. But a BIG BUT, the work is boring, where the freight is different every day.

I left Freightliner due the company started to fall down massively when the yanks took over, also HH management started to put their nose in. At Freightliner Intermodal there has been a massive exit, over the country especially Ipswich, which have lost in the region of 15 drivers over the last year, also Tilbury in drabs and so at Leeds and Crewe. I think a couple went to VT at the new depot in Donny from Leeds.

There is still a low morale at Freightliner, a bit like they had at DB.

Another thing i have heard....Railway Rumour, is that GBRF is looking to come out the final pension salary and now Freightliner are looking into this. I'm not sure who this will affect, if everyone, or new drivers that will come into the company after a certain date, thats if true.

Travel....You won't get none, unless your protected.

I personally can't see the attraction of a FOC nowdays, apart from driving a big engine, but that soon wears off, especially starting a loco up at 3am on a winters night, freezing your nuts off and you don't finish until 13:00 !!!!

Even though you get weekends off at Intermodal, most Friday jobs are nights.....so your in bed most of Saturday, then you get a nice 3am start Monday. If you worked at HH, GBRF and DB, you have them lovely start times on at the weekends......the dreaded 00:01 starts for 12hrs on a ballast. Most times you don't even know what time you start until the last mintue !!!

Don't forget the Bank Holiday shuts downs and Xmas....good luck !!!

Sorry if I am putting you off....If your serious about this, I would definitely chat to a Freight driver from any company if you see any about. Some depots may be better than others.

For me, If Freightliner offered me the same salary what I'm on now to come back......That would be a big no from me....and I love the freight, but thats my choice.

I think the freight is starting to level out, but just be careful...If your going to choose HH, GBRF, or DB, see what the work is and how long the contracts are at them depots. Contracts change and after a few years will go to another company, some might stay, but you can never tell. Freight is now a dog eat dog culture and unfortunately it's us that get thrown out of the job.

There was a comment above, that last in first out does not apply. It does, maybe not at their company, but at others it does.
It works on seniority order. You can't just get rid of drivers. Normally, they will ask if the oldies want to retire, or maybe ask the medically restrictive, or if they have the money like at DB and HH, put in for the redundancy package (30k I think the HH drivers got, pending their contract), or a move. If no ones wants to leave, it then goes on seniority. If you both have the same seniority, it goes on age I think.

Also to add...When HH lost work up North the other year, drivers were having to have to go, but then they won a contract from DB. The Immingham flow I think. The guys thought they were safe, when in fact that was not the case. Because the new flow was over 50%, the DB guys got TUPED over to HH and the HH drivers got made reduntant...Thats the rules of TUPE.

Good luck what ever you choose.

 

[saracen]

Im not sure, but I'm there maybe a Intermodal depot at Donny now as well has a HH depot. When I worked for Freightliner they were still trying to set a depot up there, but HH guys were coving the work.

Im not sure if this is the case still.

I've worked for Freightliner the day it was set up basically, from being TUPED over from RFD. I'm now at a TOC.

I can't answer your question on time bands, I was a Intermodal driver, so I worked to a roster like a TOC.

Intermodal is the better, more regular work and more stable, but they are only on 45k, plus the 1800 sign on. Freightliner drivers are the lowest paid drivers, when once we were the 3rd highest.

For me, I loved the freight. I was brought up on it from the early age of 16/17 and gone through all the process of losing work to gaining work, no payrise's at Freightliner and the loss of drivers, over the years.

At a TOC, you defo get looked after, loads of benefits, nice mess rooms, free tea and coffee, no stupid night turns, no 4 hr movements off spare, no stupid start times (not at my depot), my last turn gets in just after midnight. But a BIG BUT, the work is boring, where the freight is different every day.

I left Freightliner due the company started to fall down massively when the yanks took over, also HH management started to put their nose in. At Freightliner Intermodal there has been a massive exit, over the country especially Ipswich, which have lost in the region of 15 drivers over the last year, also Tilbury in drabs and so at Leeds and Crewe. I think a couple went to VT at the new depot in Donny from Leeds.

There is still a low morale at Freightliner, a bit like they had at DB.

Another thing i have heard....Railway Rumour, is that GBRF is looking to come out the final pension salary and now Freightliner are looking into this. I'm not sure who this will affect, if everyone, or new drivers that will come into the company after a certain date, thats if true.

Travel....You won't get none, unless your protected.

I personally can't see the attraction of a FOC nowdays, apart from driving a big engine, but that soon wears off, especially starting a loco up at 3am on a winters night, freezing your nuts off and you don't finish until 13:00 !!!!

Even though you get weekends off at Intermodal, most Friday jobs are nights.....so your in bed most of Saturday, then you get a nice 3am start Monday. If you worked at HH, GBRF and DB, you have them lovely start times on at the weekends......the dreaded 00:01 starts for 12hrs on a ballast. Most times you don't even know what time you start until the last mintue !!!

Don't forget the Bank Holiday shuts downs and Xmas....good luck !!!

Sorry if I am putting you off....If your serious about this, I would definitely chat to a Freight driver from any company if you see any about. Some depots may be better than others.

For me, If Freightliner offered me the same salary what I'm on now to come back......That would be a big no from me....and I love the freight, but thats my choice.

I think the freight is starting to level out, but just be careful...If your going to choose HH, GBRF, or DB, see what the work is and how long the contracts are at them depots. Contracts change and after a few years will go to another company, some might stay, but you can never tell. Freight is now a dog eat dog culture and unfortunately it's us that get thrown out of the job.

There was a comment above, that last in first out does not apply. It does, maybe not at their company, but at others it does.
It works on seniority order. You can't just get rid of drivers. Normally, they will ask if the oldies want to retire, or maybe ask the medically restrictive, or if they have the money like at DB and HH, put in for the redundancy package (30k I think the HH drivers got, pending their contract), or a move. If no ones wants to leave, it then goes on seniority. If you both have the same seniority, it goes on age I think.

Also to add...When HH lost work up North the other year, drivers were having to have to go, but then they won a contract from DB. The Immingham flow I think. The guys thought they were safe, when in fact that was not the case. Because the new flow was over 50%, the DB guys got TUPED over to HH and the HH drivers got made reduntant...Thats the rules of TUPE.

Good luck what ever you choose.

From a another TOC driver who moved over from a FOC. This is SPOT on

 

[uww11x]

See, as an outsider I would love a FOC to advertise a trainee role!

 

[Crazyb]

See, as an outsider I would love a FOC to advertise a trainee role!

I still knock around with a few Intermodal and HH drivers on the weekends for a beer, and on the "Railway Rumour Mill" it was said that Freightliner were going to take on trainees again. Not sure where though.

At the moment, It looks like everyone is advertising for qualified freight drivers, this is a cheaper option. If no takers then they may take trainees.

There are some Freight drivers moving a round to other FOC's but not many, and HH did ask the drivers that they made reduntant to come back I think....I'm not sure of theirs answers..lol

A freight drivers job would be good for a newbie or a reduntant driver, but changing from a TOC to a FOC....Hmmmmm, unless your really unhappy

Like I said, I can't knock the freight, otherwise I wouldn't of done 30 odd years driving a round the country in the DARK, but be extremely carfeful with your choice.

Another question is, why are there so many freight driver jobs now ? you never saw jobs advertised, or very rare if you did in the past.........and why have so many left to go to TOCS ?


I have freight in my bloody and yes I do miss it, but the good times have gone I'm afraid.........and the Americans are just Chicken oriental to work for !!

Anyway, for you TOC drivers....

Would I go to DB, not in a million years !!! (Also new contracts for newbies)

Would I go to GBRF, only if it was the only job available !!!

Would I go to DRS...I don't know enough to comment, but I hear its like.... jobs for the boys (The best ones), like some in GBRF at certain depots and the others get the **** work. (only what I hear at mess rooms)

Would I go the HH, not in a million of years

Would I go back to Intermodal...I think I would if I was not happy in my current role.

I also like to apologise to drivers that are happy in their FOC's.

 

[uww11x]

I still knock around with a few Intermodal and HH drivers on the weekends for a beer, and on the "Railway Rumour Mill" it was said that Freightliner were going to take on trainees again. Not sure where though.

At the moment, It looks like everyone is advertising for qualified freight drivers, this is a cheaper option. If no takers then they may take trainees.

There are some Freight drivers moving a round to other FOC's but not many, and HH did ask the drivers that they made reduntant to come back I think....I'm not sure of theirs answers..lol

A freight drivers job would be good for a newbie or a reduntant driver, but changing from a TOC to a FOC....Hmmmmm, unless your really unhappy

Like I said, I can't knock the freight, otherwise I wouldn't of done 30 odd years driving a round the country in the DARK, but be extremely carfeful with your choice.

Another question is, why are there so many freight driver jobs now ? you never saw jobs advertised, or very rare if you did in the past.........and why have so many left to go to TOCS ?


I have freight in my bloody and yes I do miss it, but the good times have gone I'm afraid.........nd the Americans are just Chicken oriental to work for !!

Anyway, for you TOC drivers....

Would I go to DB, not in a million years !!! (Also new contracts for newbies)

Would I go to GBRF, only if it was the only job available !!!

Would I go to DRS...I don't know enough to comment, but I hear its like.... jobs for the boys (The best ones), like some in GBRF at certain depots and the others get the **** work. (only what I hear at mess rooms)

Would I go the HH, not in a million of years

Would I go back to Intermodal...I think I would if I was not happy in my current role.

I also like to apologise to drivers that are happy in their FOC's.

Hopefully Carlisle based! Work in a Bookies so unsociable hours is a piece cake for me!

 

[Dieseldriver]

Hopefully Carlisle based! Work in a Bookies so unsociable hours is a piece cake for me!

Without trying to have a contest, what sort of unsociable hours are you used to? TOCs are bad enough but with FOCs you could be booking on at literally any time around the 24 hour clock for a shift of any time up to 12 hours whilst being expected to be fully alert and concentrate on what is a job with big consequences if you get it wrong.
You have to be very strict with your lifestyle choices in this job and relationships/friendships can suffer

 

[uww11x]

Without trying to have a contest, what sort of unsociable hours are you used to? TOCs are bad enough but with FOCs you could be booking on at literally any time around the 24 hour clock for a shift of any time up to 12 hours whilst being expected to be fully alert and concentrate on what is a job with big consequences if you get it wrong.
You have to be very strict with your lifestyle choices in this job and relationships/friendships can suffer

Only guaranteed day off is Christmas day. 7:40-22:10 average shift then in the next day for it all again.

 

[Crazyb]

Good info keep it coming guys.

• Route learning duration?
• Pecking order? (new guy gets the crap jobs for example)
• Average shift duration?
• Overtime?
• Breaks?
• Holidays/time off/mutual swaps etc
• Does every shift include driving turns or do you sit spare, shunt? form trains?

Thanks.

• Route learning duration?......Pending if the depot has links. You will go in to the jnr link, and if at my depot, the sort of rubbish work...lol

• Pecking order? (new guy gets the crap jobs for example).......I have heard at Willesden GBRF, you won't get on the sleeper work, and DRS have jobs for the boys.

• Average shift duration?....... Intermodal, anything from 5 to 11 hours.

• Overtime?....Yes some, not much, pending what depot...If you are at Intermodal, you can choose to do Ballast work on HH conditions and pay for them days

• Breaks?...What are they!!!

• Holidays/time off/mutual swaps etc....Intermodal, 4 days aweek at 35hrs, over the base roster...Some weeks you can do 6 days on, some weeks 4 days on.
Swaps - yes. Holidays are 4 weeks off plus BH off or a lieu day and I can't remember, but 6 floating days.
The hoildays work, A week of RDs and a weeks leave, so every 13 weeks you get a week of RDs coupled to a weeks leave.

• Does every shift include driving turns or do you sit spare, shunt? form trains?...... Very rare if I was spare, I can't even remember the last time I was. Yes, you shunt trains but on your diagram. Yes, there are shunt jobs.

 

[uww11x]

• Route learning duration?......Pending if the depot has links. You will go in to the jnr link, and if at my depot, the sort of rubbish work...lol

• Pecking order? (new guy gets the crap jobs for example).......I have heard at Willesden GBRF, you won't get on the sleeper work, and DRS have jobs for the boys.

• Average shift duration?....... Intermodal, anything from 5 to 11 hours.

• Overtime?....Yes some, not much, pending what depot...If you are at Intermodal, you can choose to do Ballast work on HH conditions and pay for them days

• Breaks?...What are they!!!

• Holidays/time off/mutual swaps etc....Intermodal, 4 days aweek at 35hrs, over the base roster...Some weeks you can do 6 days on, some weeks 4 days on.
Swaps - yes. Holidays are 4 weeks off plus BH off or a lieu day and I can't remember, but 6 floating days.
The hoildays work, A week of RDs and a weeks leave, so every 13 weeks you get a week of RDs coupled to a weeks leave.

• Does every shift include driving turns or do you sit spare, shunt? form trains?...... Very rare if I was spare, I can't even remember the last time I was. Yes, you shunt trains but on your diagram. Yes, there are shunt jobs.

Sensational pay though.

 

[tgrb]

Is HH heavy haul?

How/why are those conditions different?