TOC renationalisation updates

[vuzzeho]

So, with SWR done, I think it's time for a more general thread to cover the renationalisations of TOCs, since this is something that'll be happening pretty often. Next up (at time of writing) is C2C, 20th July, then Greater Anglia, 12th October.

Previous SWR thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/south-western-railway-nationalisation-time.286670/

I was wondering what time C2C will be taken over, as SWR was in the middle of the night. Is it going to be the same here?

 

[jamster47]

Morning, as someone mentioned elsewhere the Trenitalia logos are being removed now from the class 357s. I received an email yesterday too confirming the name change, from 20th July to c2c Railway Limited.

Not sure about the first train though. The 06:38 I would presume?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not sure about the first train though. The 06:38 I would presume?

Is there not an 05:40 departure from Shoeburyness into London Fenchurch Street on a Sunday morning? Maybe that'll be the one?

 

[jamster47]

Yes, sorry did not see that. I was thinking first one from London as I presumed that would be where there would be some event or presentation to say GBR is still ‘coming soon’.

Must be that one from Shoeburyness then.

 

[vuzzeho]

Yes, sorry did not see that. I was thinking first one from London as I presumed that would be where there would be some event or presentation to say GBR is still ‘coming soon’.

Must be that one from Shoeburyness then.

I remember with SWR there was a press event scheduled with an embargo for the takeover Sunday. Is there any such event scheduled this time?

 

[bramling]

So, with SWR done, I think it's time for a more general thread to cover the renationalisations of TOCs, since this is something that'll be happening pretty often. Next up (at time of writing) is C2C, 20th July, then Greater Anglia, 12th October.

Previous SWR thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/south-western-railway-nationalisation-time.286670/

I was wondering what time C2C will be taken over, as SWR was in the middle of the night. Is it going to be the same here?

Has there been any hint given as to what might follow Greater Anglia?

 

[JonathanH]

Has there been any hint given as to what might follow Greater Anglia?

I think the only hint is

Following Greater Anglia, the programme will continue with the transfer of one operator's services roughly every three months. We expect these to follow the order in which operators’ current contractual minimum terms expire, unless a TOC defaults on its contract to the extent that there is a contractual right to terminate (in which case it will transfer as soon as reasonably practicable) or other extenuating circumstances arise.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2024-12-04/HCWS281#:~:text=Following Greater Anglia, the programme will continue with the transfer of one operator's services roughly every three months.

This text then suggests that the order could change based on performance.

I will be monitoring very closely the performance of all existing train operators who run services under contract to the Department and, as the Government have made clear during the passage of the Bill, we will not hesitate to take decisive action where an operator’s poor performance means that contractual conditions for early termination of a National Rail Contract are met.

 

[PLY2AYS]

I think the only hint is

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2024-12-04/HCWS281#:~:text=Following Greater Anglia, the programme will continue with the transfer of one operator's services roughly every three months.

This text then suggests that the order could change based on performance.

Found this article posted on a now closed thread about Renationalisation dates… was updated in May.

News - Bring Back British Rail

www.bringbackbritishrail.org

I find the departures board in very good taste.

Presumably this will change however, I know contract extensions have been granted… so there is likely some flexibility around certain timelines. But it’s got the most up to date contract termination dates on there.

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably this will change however, I know contract extensions have been granted…

It seems out of date, since it doesn't fit at all with the 'one every three months' narrative.

 

[vuzzeho]

Found this article posted on a now closed thread about Renationalisation dates… was updated in May.

News - Bring Back British Rail

www.bringbackbritishrail.org

I find the departures board in very good taste.

Presumably this will change however, I know contract extensions have been granted… so there is likely some flexibility around certain timelines. But it’s got the most up to date contract termination dates on there.

For some of those, it uses the contract end date, and for others it uses the core term expiry date. For example, GA is being renationalised after its core term expiry date (which was 15th September 2024) even though its final termination date would've been 20th September 2026. It has the same core term expiry date as WMT/LNWR. Additionally, it puts nearly a full year's gap between GA and the next, which they have as WMT/LNWR, even though the government have been pretty clearly saying one operator will be taken over every 3 months.

There are several operators with core term expiry dates that have passed. I'll just make a table of the ones after GA.

Operator	Core term expiry date
West Midlands Trains/London Northwestern Railway	15th September 2024 (same as GA) (passed)
Chiltern Railways	1st April 2025 (passed)
Govia Thameslink Railway (Thameslink/Southern/Great Northern)	1st April 2025 (passed)
Great Western Railway	22nd June 2025 (passed)
Avanti West Coast	18th October 2026
East Midlands Railway	18th October 2026
CrossCountry	17th October 2027

 

[PLY2AYS]

For some of those, it uses the contract end date, and for others it uses the core term expiry date. For example, GA is being renationalised after its core term expiry date (which was 15th September 2024) even though its final termination date would've been 20th September 2026. It has the same core term expiry date as WMT/LNWR. Additionally, it puts nearly a full year's gap between GA and the next, which they have as WMT/LNWR, even though the government have been pretty clearly saying one operator will be taken over every 3 months.

There are several operators with core term expiry dates that have passed. I'll just make a table of the ones after GA.

Operator	Core term expiry date
West Midlands Trains/London Northwestern Railway	15th September 2024 (same as GA) (passed)
Chiltern Railways	1st April 2025 (passed)
Govia Thameslink Railway (Thameslink/Southern/Great Northern)	1st April 2025 (passed)
Great Western Railway	22nd June 2025 (passed)
Avanti West Coast	18th October 2026
East Midlands Railway	18th October 2026
CrossCountry	17th October 2027

Perfect. Good reference to have.

Apologies for my last post, probably should have clarified with an ‘I think’ in that last sentence.

 

[jamster47]

I remember with SWR there was a press event scheduled with an embargo for the takeover Sunday. Is there any such event scheduled this time?

Nothing I’m aware of as yet. It’s why I thought the 06:38 would be the launch train for the new era. There was some talk that the c2c launch would be a bit bigger than SWR, however given GBR is a long way off I’m not expecting much. I still hope the London, Tilbury & Southend name returns but I’m conflicted as I would be sorry to see the c2c brand go.

 

[vuzzeho]

There was some talk that the c2c launch would be a bit bigger than SWR

Wait what? When?

 

[jamster47]

It was something Geoff Marshall said on the SWR nationalisation day but it was only speculative. Given that GBR is still 18 months away, at best, I expect it to be a ‘coming soon’ branding same as SWR and no other substantial change.

 

[317 forever]

I remember with SWR there was a press event scheduled with an embargo for the takeover Sunday. Is there any such event scheduled this time?

I think it is less likely, given that SWR was the first such nationalisation.

More likely is that there will be a press event for the final one to be renationalised, currently likely to be Cross Country.

 

[frankmoh]

Any word on what's happening to Southeastern? I know they got renationalised a few years back but I don't see why they are not the ones to go in with the GBR stuff unlike SWR.

 

[vuzzeho]

Any word on what's happening to Southeastern? I know they got renationalised a few years back but I don't see why they are not the ones to go in with the GBR stuff unlike SWR.

I expected SE to get the GBR coming soon sticker too - especially with the whole 'uniting track and train' thing that just happened. They even posed it as a 'GBR coming soon' moment - would've been a perfect opportunity to start putting stickers up.

 

[frankmoh]

I expected SE to get the GBR coming soon sticker too - especially with the whole 'uniting track and train' thing that just happened. They even posed it as a 'GBR coming soon' moment - would've been a perfect opportunity to start putting stickers up.

Please if they bring back the NSE livery that would be lovely. Or BR Blue. I don't think the current GBR logo works with any of SE's trains, unlike SWR.

 

[vuzzeho]

Please if they bring back the NSE livery that would be lovely. Or BR Blue. I don't think the current GBR logo works with any of SE's trains, unlike SWR.

Honestly, I don't think they'll bring back NSE. Maybe a full blue, though (though this is a discussion for another thread). Either way, if they rolled out some form of branding to C2C, then they could probably also roll it to GA later this year, which would allow them to create an 'Eastern' operator/subsector/operating unit/whatever. Has merging GA and C2C been mentioned before?

 

[Brubulus]

Honestly, I don't think they'll bring back NSE. Maybe a full blue, though (though this is a discussion for another thread). Either way, if they rolled out some form of branding to C2C, then they could probably also roll it to GA later this year, which would allow them to create an 'Eastern' operator/subsector/operating unit/whatever. Has merging GA and C2C been mentioned before?

I'd love to see NSE come back, though I sadly suspect the outward facade of franchising will limp on for the long term, despite all services being operated by GBR.

 

[vuzzeho]

I was thinking about this again. Do we know who is going to lead DFTO C2C? Will it be the head of NR's Eastern region?

 

[450.emu]

Wondering if any sort of GBR branding would be applied to any of the LTS Rail... er I mean c2c stock? Even just a Double Arrow would do. TfL have their Roundel on every bus despite different operators.

 

[RUK]

Wondering if any sort of GBR branding would be applied to any of the LTS Rail... er I mean c2c stock? Even just a Double Arrow would do. TfL have their Roundel on every bus despite different operators.

I see that they've stuck a GBR sticker on one of the 720s.

c2c train services to be brought into public ownership from this weekend

Government plans will see c2c services running between Fenchurch Street and Shoebury transferred to public ownership.

uk.news.yahoo.com

They’ve put the same sticker on a c2c Class 720 as they did on the Class 701.

 

[vuzzeho]

They’ve put the same sticker on a c2c Class 720 as they did on the Class 701.

Interesting. I asked this on another thread, but I wonder if every train will get that sticker - they're probably 'worthy' of the GBR brand.

 

[ollyexe2808]

Interesting. I asked this on another thread, but I wonder if every train will get that sticker - they're probably 'worthy' of the GBR brand.

In regard to the branding and use of GBR when 'worthy', I think all will remain to be seen following the GBR legislation and white paper in September - I can imagine a situation in which the in-house TOCs will be given stricter brand guidelines as and when they meet the criteria, and I reckon we are a year or more out from seeing any meaningful brand change across the network....but who knows!

 

[vuzzeho]

In regard to the branding and use of GBR when 'worthy', I think all will remain to be seen following the GBR legislation and white paper in September - I can imagine a situation in which the in-house TOCs will be given stricter brand guidelines as and when they meet the criteria, and I reckon we are a year or more out from seeing any meaningful brand change across the network....but who knows!

That makes sense. But why would they say 'they get the branding when they're worthy' instead of 'the branding will come when the legislation's here'? That feels like it makes a lot more sense.

 

[OneOfThe48]

That makes sense. But why would they say 'they get the branding when they're worthy' instead of 'the branding will come when the legislation's here'? That feels like it makes a lot more sense.

Because they didn’t think it through properly.

They said they would put GBR branding on a train before they worked out what ‘GBR branding’ would entail if done properly, so worked out a way to fudge it and not do it for every train with the ‘coming soon’ sticker.

They said that operators get GBR branding when they ‘deserve it’ as it sounds nice and gives the public the impression GBR will be a high performing operator.

 

[Pete_uk]

I was thinking about this again. Do we know who is going to lead DFTO C2C? Will it be the head of NR's Eastern region?

I think the current boss is staying on

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the current boss is staying on

Looks as if that’s stated as a fact in the dedicated c2c thread.

 

[Pete_uk]

Looks as if that’s stated as a fact in the dedicated c2c thread.

Which is, funnily enough, where I read it!