TOC Contract Changes-what would you implement?

[12CSVT]

3) Stiff penalties for overcrowding. Recognise that there will be idle time for stock at quiet times if peak demand is to be met (as it should be). Encourage creative use of 'idle' stock at wekends etc. ie meet the highest demand, not the lowest.

The flaw with this is that TOCs would use it as an excuse to introduce compulsory seat reservations - and in my view, overcrowing is a lesser 'evil' than not being allowed to travel because all the seats are occupied.

 

[yorksrob]

I would also stipulate that the last trains on all local routes out of Leeds would leave no earlier than 23:30. I'm not interested in excuses about stock or track maintenance etc. Having last trains at 22:30 - 22:45 is unacceptable level of service for a City like Leeds in this day and age as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Masbroughlad]

I would also stipulate that the last trains on all local routes out of Leeds would leave no earlier than 23:30. I'm not interested in excuses about stock or track maintenance etc. Having last trains at 22:30 - 22:45 is unacceptable level of service for a City like Leeds in this day and age as far as I'm concerned.

I would agree with that 100% (probably same for some other big cities too.

I would also like to see better services through the night to Airports.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

all trains to have at least 76 seats

Well, I think it's time the "no growth" element of the Northern Franchise were re-visited. I'd also require the next franchisee to do something about 142 seating.

Does this apply to class 142 " Cattle Trucks " as some are still running around with bench seats that have the comfort of a razor blade ?

The Department For Transport also need to get their backsides outside of London and do a review of the shocking rail services Lincolnshire has.

 

[harz99]

Three things I would like to see:

1. The last through train of the day on all former InterCity routes (ECML,WCML etc.) to call at ALL stations en route that are served at any time else during that day by that TOC.

2. A customer service issue - the maximum time a passenger can be inconvenienced at a station by late running services (either missing a connection or waiting to travel) to be 60 minutes.
Virgin, and I guess some other TOCs, will refuse to assist anyone with further travel, who is being delayed on station awaiting a late running service unless the service is over 2 hours late. It's CS charter allows it to do this, and in this day and age that's just outrageous.

3. All former InterCity stations to have staff visible and able to assist passengers on the platform at all times when services are running.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does this apply to class 142 " Cattle Trucks " as some are still running around with bench seats that have the comfort of a razor blade ?

If you mean the original bus type seats, I actually prefer them to the later bolt upright seats that seem to be made for midgets or children to sit on!

 

[Chapeltom]

The 142s with the high backed bluey/green seats are actually very comfy, even if legroom is terrible.

 

[harz99]

The 142s with the high backed bluey/green seats are actually very comfy, even if legroom is terrible.

Not the high backed I was referring to, nor the legroom; rather the lowbacked individual seats which are bolt upright.

 

[Chapeltom]

Not the high backed I was referring to, nor the legroom; rather the lowbacked individual seats which are bolt upright.

I know, I wasn't posting in direct reference to your post. I was expressing my prefenence with the 142s.

The ones you refer to are beyond dire though and should dissappear.


As for TOC Contract Changes, be nice to see more Sheffield to Manchester stoppers in the evening! 2112 does seem too early for the last New Mills Central to Chinley train! And the lack of train between 2035 and 2247 (M-F) (2224 So) from Sheffield is not good at all! On a Saturday, it is a scary thought knowing if I miss the 2035, I'm on Sheffield station for 2 hours!

 

[The Ham]

Could there not be a system that provided for the uncertainty over growth of franchises.

For instance if (like with Northern) growth was higher than expected then there would be extra payment that would be due to the government unless certain conditions or projects where met or undertaken.

For instance if a certain route sees growth (i.e. 3%) then a payment of a multiple of the growth rate (i.e.3x3%=9%) of the fares collected unless a) no single train runs with 75% or more of the seats are occupied or b) no single train runs with 85% or more of the seats (and no more than 10 per week run at 75% full) are occupied and run 5% more services or 15% longer trains along the route. Probably with a clause that allows small breaches in these figures in the last few years of a franchise.

In doing so if there is growth then there is a financial benefit to still invest if routes grow significantly. As if there is 1% growth paying a small percentage on these fares would be worth just paying the fee. However if there is 5% growth it maybe cheaper for the TOC to make the required improvements rather than pay the fee for the extra growth as it may also allow them to run with fuller trains.

 

[John55]

Well, I think it's time the "no growth" element of the Northern Franchise were re-visited. I'd also require the next franchisee to do something about 142 seating.

Does this apply to class 142 " Cattle Trucks " as some are still running around with bench seats that have the comfort of a razor blade ?

The no growth element of the Northern franchise has been addressed at least in part or are all those class 322s, 150s and 142s which have appeared in Northern Land over the last few years been imaginary? All these additional trains are paid for by the DfT by adjustment of the franchise payments.

While the original bench seats in Pacers leave much to be desired there are many worse especially on the brand new Class 378s (with the added benefit of metal bars fitted to smash in the back of the head of the unwary. Some of the 150s Northern use are particularly poor in that what could be a reasonably comfortable seat is unusable for many of us who are more than 4 ft 6 ins tall due the lack of leg room.

 

[yorksrob]

The no growth element of the Northern franchise has been addressed at least in part or are all those class 322s, 150s and 142s which have appeared in Northern Land over the last few years been imaginary? All these additional trains are paid for by the DfT by adjustment of the franchise payments.

While the original bench seats in Pacers leave much to be desired there are many worse especially on the brand new Class 378s (with the added benefit of metal bars fitted to smash in the back of the head of the unwary. Some of the 150s Northern use are particularly poor in that what could be a reasonably comfortable seat is unusable for many of us who are more than 4 ft 6 ins tall due the lack of leg room.

Well, it's more of a patch and mend approach, particularly as some of the 142's have replaced 15*'s that have gone elsewhere rather than expanding capacity.

I can't think of many train seats worse than the 142' bus seats off hand, although I have to say, I've not had the pleasure of the 378's as yet. Suffice to say, the 378's are all used on suburban metro type services whereas the Northern 142's can end up on some quite lengthy cross country routes.

 

[tbtc]

Well, it's more of a patch and mend approach, particularly as some of the 142's have replaced 15*'s that have gone elsewhere rather than expanding capacity

You mean the four 156s that went to EMT? Just four.

Northern still saw a large capacity increase over the last year; despite all of the wailing about "no growth" the franchise is running more trains and longer trains than when they took over.

 

[ainsworth74]

You mean the four 156s that went to EMT? Just four.

Weren't there quite a few 158s that went to ScotRail on a short term 'loan'?

 

[tbtc]

Weren't there quite a few 158s that went to ScotRail on a short term 'loan'?

That was a few years ago (four units, due to return once the Bathgate line was wired and ScotRail didn't need so many DMUs, IIRC), but I thought that Northern received something else to compensate?

 

[yorksrob]

You mean the four 156s that went to EMT? Just four.

Northern still saw a large capacity increase over the last year; despite all of the wailing about "no growth" the franchise is running more trains and longer trains than when they took over.

Nevertheless, it's still a case of beg, borrow and steal where appropriate, as passengers on the Cumbrian coast or Carlisle - Newcastle services can testify.

 

[Jeni]

1. The last through train of the day on all former InterCity routes (ECML,WCML etc.) to call at ALL stations en route that are served at any time else during that day by that TOC.

That could make for some quite slow journeys! Though, to be fair, it's not such a bad idea. Perhaps stagger the stops over the last two trains, rather than have a single very slow last train.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Three things I would like to see:

1. The last through train of the day on all former InterCity routes (ECML,WCML etc.) to call at ALL stations en route that are served at any time else during that day by that TOC.

2. A customer service issue - the maximum time a passenger can be inconvenienced at a station by late running services (either missing a connection or waiting to travel) to be 60 minutes.
Virgin, and I guess some other TOCs, will refuse to assist anyone with further travel, who is being delayed on station awaiting a late running service unless the service is over 2 hours late. It's CS charter allows it to do this, and in this day and age that's just outrageous.

3. All former InterCity stations to have staff visible and able to assist passengers on the platform at all times when services are running.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If you mean the original bus type seats, I actually prefer them to the later bolt upright seats that seem to be made for midgets or children to sit on!

The 142s with the high backed bluey/green seats are actually very comfy, even if legroom is terrible.

Not the high backed I was referring to, nor the legroom; rather the lowbacked individual seats which are bolt upright.

I know, I wasn't posting in direct reference to your post. I was expressing my prefenence with the 142s.

The ones you refer to are beyond dire though and should dissappear.

Did no one know that it is Northern Rail's policy for us to be sat in the Childbirth Position as part of your day return ticket rules and regs ?

 

[talltim]

This was clearly a bad idea and is one of the main reasons why Northern struggle so much for capacity and with one of the oldest train fleets in GB.

There are five TOCs with a greater average fleet age than Northern
http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/53dcc4e1-3223-48f9-9e9c-10d51359cdd7

 

[sheff'd victoria]

There are five TOCs with a greater average fleet age than Northern
http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/53dcc4e1-3223-48f9-9e9c-10d51359cdd7

But to be fair I bet Northern has the most 2 car units then everyone else ?

Could you see Southern hiring a Class 142 Cattle Truck doing a London Vic - Brighton service , Jesus, Boris would have a fit

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Oh, another thread going on incessantly about Pacers and / or how awful they are and how people down South have it sooooooo much better. Haven't had one of those in a while. Some people really need to let it drop...

 

[tsr]

Could you see Southern hiring a Class 142 Cattle Truck doing a London Vic - Brighton service , Jesus, Boris would have a fit

Well, they do now run 442s!

 

[tbtc]

Nevertheless, it's still a case of beg, borrow and steal where appropriate, as passengers on the Cumbrian coast or Carlisle - Newcastle services can testify.

It's a case of Northern having much more capacity now than when they took over, despite all the comments about "no growth" and complaints about how Londoners wouldn't swap their gold plated trains for our Pacers etc.

It's not all grim up north

 

[t o m]

Free travel for NR employees.

 

[yorksrob]

It's a case of Northern having much more capacity now than when they took over, despite all the comments about "no growth" and complaints about how Londoners wouldn't swap their gold plated trains for our Pacers etc.

It's not all grim up north

Yeah, well it's never that grim up North - what with all our breweries and all . Northern have a decent stab at getting new trains. And Londoners have their own preconceptions about all train fares being dirt cheap.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are five TOCs with a greater average fleet age than Northern
http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/53dcc4e1-3223-48f9-9e9c-10d51359cdd7

It's not all about age of stock though. Merseyrail has older stock than Northern, but it's a fairly uniform fleet of trains designed for suburban use on a Metro type system.

On Northern there is still a stock shortage which leads to long routes making do with trains that are clearly unsuitable for those sorts of journeys (the units that would be suitable often have a greater capacity and have to be used busier shorter distance services), even before you take account of chronic overcrowding.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Oh, another thread going on incessantly about Pacers and / or how awful they are and how people down South have it sooooooo much better. Haven't had one of those in a while. Some people really need to let it drop...

You have to be joking