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Tired Scotrail

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boabt

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Anyone got a league table of 'tired' fleets? :rolleyes:

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/8968919/calls-to-replace-old-tired-scotrail-fleet/
Scottish Government agency Transport Scotland admitted that 45 per cent of ScotRail trains are over 30 years old - with the fleet’s average age over 22 years.

Scottish Government agency Transport Scotland admitted that 45 per cent of ScotRail trains are over 30 years old - with the fleet’s average age over 22 years.

In total, there are 350 trains of which 167 have been in use for three decades. Of this, 93 were built between 1975 and 1989.
 
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Domh245

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Yes, ORR does, table 6313 linked from this page, last release October 2021

Diagrammatically:

1654511086533.png

Image shows bar chart with average age of all GB TOC fleets. Oldest 3 are: Merseyrail at 41.6 years, TfW Rail at 29.9 years, Chiltern at 27.9 years. Scotrail is 7th with average of 21.7 years. Youngest 3 are London Overground at 6.8 Years, Heathrow Express at 4.6 years, and Hull Trains at 1.3 years (at time of publication!)
 

Bob Price

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Bit of a headline grabber. Yes the HSTs are old but still running well. Not aware of any plans to replace anything but I would guess the 156's and some of the EMUs will be gone ScotRail has had a lot of new stock in recent years.

Interesting that the table above has two TOCs who are about to launch nearly total fleet replacement which will propel Chiltern to the top of the list.
 

Failed Unit

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Bit of a headline grabber. Yes the HSTs are old but still running well. Not aware of any plans to replace anything but I would guess the 156's and some of the EMUs will be gone ScotRail has had a lot of new stock in recent years.

Interesting that the table above has two TOCs who are about to launch nearly total fleet replacement which will propel Chiltern to the top of the list.
That is interesting when for us older members, we remember total route modernization and them having the newest fleet on the network. EMR is of interest as well as the regional route seems to always get the cast-offs (Looking in Envy at Scotrail) - But the IC route will probably bring the average down very significantly.
 

Davester50

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Bit of a headline grabber. Yes the HSTs are old but still running well. Not aware of any plans to replace anything but I would guess the 156's and some of the EMUs will be gone ScotRail has had a lot of new stock in recent years.
Some of them are running, and I wouldn't say well.
 

Speed43125

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Some of them are running, and I wouldn't say well.
How not well? The odd flat tyre aside, the main issue is management being very cautious with sending out trains that there may be a chance won't have a qualified traincrew for at the other end.
 

Davester50

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How not well? The odd flat tyre aside, the main issue is management being very cautious with sending out trains that there may be a chance won't have a qualified traincrew for at the other end.
When they're still being substituted 4 years after they arrived for training, can you say that's running well?
And as for the long termed stored ones in Slateford...
 

hexagon789

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Got to say I'm surprised from prior experience that the Northern fleet is younger (just) than Scotrail's
The HSTs are likely behind that.

How not well? The odd flat tyre aside, the main issue is management being very cautious with sending out trains that there may be a chance won't have a qualified traincrew for at the other end.
Aside from the various weekly set failures either before or during diagrams...

Last five weeks:

Last week - 3 failures
Week before - 3 failures
Week before that - 2 failures, both same day
Week before that - 4 failures, 2 on same day
Week before that - 5 failures, 2 on same day
 

Davester50

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The HSTs are likely behind that.

Yes, and giving up the youngest of the 170s too!

Aside from the various weekly set failures either before or during diagrams...

Last five weeks:

Last week - 3 failures
Week before - 3 failures
Week before that - 2 failures, both same day
Week before that - 4 failures, 2 on same day
Week before that - 5 failures, 2 on same day

To be fair, how does it compare with the 170s?
 

A0

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Anyone got a league table of 'tired' fleets? :rolleyes:


At the risk of stirring a hornet's nest - the decision to take the HSTs (which also happen to be the oldest trains on the Scotrail fleet) was a direct consequence of the ITT for the Scotrail Franchise in ~ 2012 where Transport Scotland basically demanded Mk3 stock on certain routes.......

So my sympathy for the calls by the SNP to withdraw old trains, which were the same old trains they demanded the franchisee introduce, is distinctly limited. Time for them to eat their own dog food.
 

Failed Unit

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At the risk of stirring a hornet's nest - the decision to take the HSTs (which also happen to be the oldest trains on the Scotrail fleet) was a direct consequence of the ITT for the Scotrail Franchise in ~ 2012 where Transport Scotland basically demanded Mk3 stock on certain routes.......

So my sympathy for the calls by the SNP to withdraw old trains, which were the same old trains they demanded the franchisee introduce, is distinctly limited. Time for them to eat their own dog food.
At the time what was the status of the mk4 and mk5?

From my memory the mk4s were still no real sign that they would become available as the remain IEP order was not signed at the time. But did the mk5 even exist as a concept. The reason I ask is the sleeper contract was let about the same time that did go for mk5.

If they had rolled the dice and gone for either of the above, would they be better off is a whole new thread...
 

boabt

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So my sympathy for the calls by the SNP to withdraw old trains, which were the same old trains they demanded the franchisee introduce, is distinctly limited. Time for them to eat their own dog food.

Well, it's obvz not the SNP calling for it.

Labour are demanding the HST fleet be withdrawn immediately on safety grounds and the LibDems/Tories just bemoaning old trains in general.
 

snowball

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Bit of a headline grabber. Yes the HSTs are old but still running well. Not aware of any plans to replace anything but I would guess the 156's and some of the EMUs will be gone ScotRail has had a lot of new stock in recent years.
I guess you haven't seen the two press releases that came out last week (one from Transport Scotland and one from Network Rail) and have been under discussion in other threads. They led on the start of work on Haymarket-Dalmeny electrification, with other bits of wiring in Fife to follow, but also included this:

Rolling stock procurement

Approval has also been given hold a procurement competition to identify a preferred manufacturer and financier for new suburban trains to operate decarbonised rail passenger services on the routes covered by East Kilbride, Fife and Borders routes, replacing 42 Class 156 trains and to replace the 55 Class 318 and 320 trains operating in the Strathclyde area.
It doesn't actually say that they will be battery trains but it's clear that that's what some at least of them will be.
 

hexagon789

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Yes, and giving up the youngest of the 170s too!



To be fair, how does it compare with the 170s?
The 170s are approximately 12 times less likely to fail according to the most recent MTIN figures, which in turn makes 170 1.8 times more reliable than the 158s and about 70% as reliable as the newest traction - the 385s.
 

Davester50

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The 170s are approximately 12 times less likely to fail according to the most recent MTIN figures, which in turn makes 170 1.8 times more reliable than the 158s and about 70% as reliable as the newest traction - the 385s.
Thanks.
Having used former ScotRail units from Northern (a lovely refurb) and East Midlands (clapped out with mismatched upholstery), it's amazing what a decent refurb can do too.
 

Domh245

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The coaches are new. The locos aren't.

Indeed, the coaches were (at the time of the data being published) 5 years old (2016-2018 construction), but chuck a notional 7x Cl. 92 at 27 in there, plus the 6x Cl. 73 at 50+ and suddenly the average is brought right up.

It's perhaps a tad disingenuous to include the locomotives, as well as only presenting a mean figure (though the opposite effect is had at Chiltern, where new Cl. 68s drag the average down in part countering the older Mk3 fleet!)
 

fgwrich

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The coaches are new. The locos aren't.
The irony on the diesel side of this is that, once the 67s start arriving, this will push Caledonian Sleeper up the table than down with the 67s being older than the rebuilt 73s.

As for the calls to immediately withdraw the HST fleet, while banging on about the green credentials continues to make me laugh, considering the high NOx output of the IETs.
 

Davester50

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It's perhaps a tad disingenuous to include the locomotives, as well as only presenting a mean figure (though the opposite effect is had at Chiltern, where new Cl. 68s drag the average down in part countering the older Mk3 fleet!)
Not convinced about that. Loco problems and the need to double head seems fair to me to include the bits that make them go.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The irony on the diesel side of this is that, once the 67s start arriving, this will push Caledonian Sleeper up the table than down with the 67s being older than the rebuilt 73s.
That's if you're making the rebuilt age as the new age. There'll be original 1960s components in those boxes, no?
 

fgwrich

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Not convinced about that. Loco problems and the need to double head seems fair to me to include the bits that make them go.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


That's if you're making the rebuilt age as the new age. There'll be original 1960s components in those boxes, no?
There might be a handful of original but refurbished components within the loco, but the main piece that drives it, the MTU 8V 4000 R43L will only be 6/7 years old i.e new at the time of conversion. Completely the opposite to the original English Electric SRKT they replaced...
 

Ex-controller

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At the risk of stirring a hornet's nest - the decision to take the HSTs (which also happen to be the oldest trains on the Scotrail fleet) was a direct consequence of the ITT for the Scotrail Franchise in ~ 2012 where Transport Scotland basically demanded Mk3 stock on certain routes.......

So my sympathy for the calls by the SNP to withdraw old trains, which were the same old trains they demanded the franchisee introduce, is distinctly limited. Time for them to eat their own dog food.
Yes but sadly it’s the public having to deal with the consequences of it. The HST programme has been an appalling failure, and First Group’s proposal for the franchise ultimately awarded to Abellio - to use 2x class 170 on North/South routes was the far more sensible & realistic option.

The SNP have a cheek ‘calling’ for anything given that they’ve been in power for the past 15 years.
 

Davester50

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There might be a handful of original but refurbished components within the loco, but the main piece that drives it, the MTU 8V 4000 R43L will only be 6/7 years old i.e new at the time of conversion. Completely the opposite to the original English Electric SRKT they replaced...
Fair, but how about all the other systems, like brakes and electrical? I've read they can still run from the third rail.
We're going farther off topic, but was it basically an empty shell re-used?
 

Towers

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How much effort are SR putting into getting the HSTs to a level of acceptable reliability? Is there a risk of it becoming politically advantageous for them not to be reliable?!
 

fgwrich

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Fair, but how about all the other systems, like brakes and electrical? I've read they can still run from the third rail.
We're going farther off topic, but was it basically an empty shell re-used?

Without trying to divert it further, here is a piece from Rail Magazine with GBRf's Bob Tiller on the project.

The key, however, is that this is not a new locomotive… it is a repowering project.

Rather than a class rebuild, like the Class 57 conversion project with which Brush was involved between 1998 and 2004, this is more akin to the MTU engine project on High Speed Train fleets (that Brush was also involved in) between 2006 and 2011.

Tiller was hugely involved in the latter. A senior member of the Diesel and Electric Preservation Group, he knows hydraulic equipment. And through his DEPG contacts and the need for Maybach components, it is his relationship with MTU that provides the equipment.

When the First Great Western HST power cars were fitted with MTU engines, Tiller led the project. Even now, Tiller says that no other companies would have been considered - MTU and Wabtec were the only options, he says.

The locomotives retain their multiple working equipment, but their operation needs to change, and so new equipment needs to be fitted. They have to not only work with other ’73/9s’, but also other ‘73s’, Class 66s, Network Rail Driving Van Trailers, and NR Guards Luggage Vans. The electric train heat equipment has been retained, but for the first time it will be able to work on diesel power as well as electric.

The English Electric (EE) engines were supposed to provide 600hp. But Moss explains that when they were load banked at Loughborough, they offered only 420hp (70hp more than an ‘08’). In contrast, Tiller says a test run in Kent showed the electric power of a ‘73’ could reach 2,400hp (nearly that of a Class 47).

The plan is for the new MTU engine to offer 1,600hp, a significant improvement in power. “It is a dual-mode Type 3,” says Tiller.

He explains that the new MTU engine, although wider, is more than three tonnes lighter than the less powerful EE engine. It is also more economical in terms of fuel. Because of the lighter weight of the engine, ballast blocks have been installed inside the locomotive.

The rebuilt ‘73s’ are being fitted with brand new engines and alternators. The traction motor blowers are being retained, while air intake filters are being fitted at the cantrail.

A lot of the design is based on the HSTs fitted with MTU engines. “It is half an HST,” says Tiller. He adds that the MTU engine requires a lot of air to keep it cool, hence the additional grilles on the cantrail.

Pre-heaters are being fitted to the locomotives. The temperature must be 25°C for an MTU engine to fire up, and the pre-heater warms the engine, enabling it to be started. This will apply for when working on either electric or diesel duties.

A new exhaust silencer has been fitted to the locomotive - it is in a well, so effectively it is out of the engine. A new hydraulic cooler group has also been installed. “I had to get something hydraulic in it,” smiles Tiller.

There are still two cubicles for electrics, although all the auxiliary systems are now AC motor-driven. This cuts down on maintenance requirements, says Tiller. There is a chopper cubicle for the controls for the motor, and Tiller explains that this should give an improved motor performance.

The brake system on the ‘73/9s’ has been simplified - the design was built to operate with many different trains, and so all manner of components formed the brake system. Some are still fitted with vacuum brakes, but that will change. Two locomotives (73119 and 73136) remain dual-braked, and these will be the last to be rebuilt, because they currently offer even more flexibility.

A Capos power supply is being fitted to the rebuilt locomotives. This is fitted to MTU engines across the globe, and enables engines to be started, and then hold the charge.

Says Tiller: “The locomotive doesn’t therefore need to rely on traction batteries to start. This is the first time this has been used in the UK, and is a big reliability key for the locomotive.”

Inside the cabs, the twin driving position has been retained, and new indicators and lamps are being fitted.

The distinctive indicator blinds, so common of SR designs, have been removed and the central window blanked out. Partly this has been done for cost reasons, as a windscreen costs more than £10,000 to fit to today’s safety standards. That would be more than £20,000 per locomotive, more than £100,000 for the current five ‘73s’ in the project, and potentially more than £300,000 on unnecessary glass for which GBRf would have to pay.

So Tiller isn’t paying. Instead, invertors and GSM-R (Global System for Mobile Communications - Railway) radio equipment will be fitted behind the blanked out panel.

Additional soundproofing has also been fitted to the cabs, while the windows have been sealed shut. This will surely prove popular when travelling along the West Highland Line on a freezing winter’s night.

New headlights have been fitted to the locomotives, as well as a roof-mounted headlight. The locomotives retain their roof-mounted horns. And on the cab front, while the multiple working pipes remain, a multiple working plug (a 27-way AAR system) and socket (as fitted to the Class 66s) is also now a feature.

Tiller says 73212 and 73213 are the only GBRf ‘73s’ fitted with snowplough brackets, and while these prove useful, there are no plans for more to be fitted. “We only have three sets of ‘ploughs anyway,” he says. https://www.railmagazine.com/trains/current-trains/built-in-the-1960s-rebuilt-for-the-21st-century
 

boabt

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Yes but sadly it’s the public having to deal with the consequences of it. The HST programme has been an appalling failure, and First Group’s proposal for the franchise ultimately awarded to Abellio - to use 2x class 170 on North/South routes was the far more sensible & realistic option.

The SNP have a cheek ‘calling’ for anything given that they’ve been in power for the past 15 years.

Again, the SNP fairly obviously aren't calling for themselves to upgrade the rail fleet. That be the opposition parties.

I can't comment on maintenance etc but as a commuter I can tell you I far prefer travelling on the HSTs than the 170s I used to ride.
 

hexagon789

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Thanks.
Having used former ScotRail units from Northern (a lovely refurb) and East Midlands (clapped out with mismatched upholstery), it's amazing what a decent refurb can do too.
Oh definitely, I remember when the 170s were still quite fresh and they really were quite nice. They've been getting decidedly tatty, especially those with the original NatEx interiors, since about 2015-16 onwards. I remember the last time I had '401 on a Dunblane, and the First Class cabin was so tatty, you'd easily think the unit was 40 years old and had never had a refurbishment, rather than a shade over 15 years old as she was at the time. Pity too, '401 was always one of the best units - it delivered my highest recorded 170 speed of 103.1mph. By contrast my last trip on a late-running Inverness-Glasgow with '432 failed to exceed 95, even on the final sprint the E&G, we accelerated to and simply held that speed until power was shut off just past Lenzie.
 
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