Tinsley and other yards

[gerryuk]

Can somebody please explain the difference between a yard and a siding?
I have used the example of Tinsley Yard in Sheffield. Would a yard have drivers based there, toilet facilities, fuelling points and the like, or are they just there to allow trains to stable for longer periods than a normal siding? Thanks.

 

[Altfish]

I've always considered a siding to be the start or end of the journey.
A yard is somewhere where wagons are sorted before moving on elsewhere.

But that could be rubbish:roll:

 

[najaB]

I've always considered a siding to be the start or end of the journey.
A yard is somewhere where wagons are sorted before moving on elsewhere.

I've always thought that a siding is typically one or two lines that allow stock to be stabled off the running line, or which run to a loading/unloading point. A yard is a more substantial facility with multiple roads, which allows for sorting or maintenance and has one or more buildings associated with it (e.g. crew buildings, maintenance sheds). Also, to my way of thinking a siding is single ended, where a yard may have mainline connections at both ends.

 

[Harbornite]

Can somebody please explain the difference between a yard and a siding?
I have used the example of Tinsley Yard in Sheffield. Would a yard have drivers based there, toilet facilities, fuelling points and the like, or are they just there to allow trains to stable for longer periods than a normal siding? Thanks.

A yard contains multiple sidings and has facilities like goods offices, booking-on points for drivers etc. They are more like depots except that depots have locomotives allocated to them and more facilities related to loco maintenance and storage.

Sidings are just tracks that aren't running lines and used to store wagons or ecs. They are one of the main components of yards and depots.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Can somebody please explain the difference between a yard and a siding?
I have used the example of Tinsley Yard in Sheffield. Would a yard have drivers based there, toilet facilities, fuelling points and the like, or are they just there to allow trains to stable for longer periods than a normal siding? Thanks.

Well Tinsley had a large MPD located next to it with an equally large allocation of loco's. The depot closed in the mid 1990's (I think) and was capable of carrying out repairs to loco's (hence it's 'flight deck' etc). I was a regular visitor in the late 1970's / early 1980's.

It's also worth noting that Tinsley yard was also located on a through route to Treeton Junction, now long gone.

 

[snowball]

A siding as I've always understood it is just one track, usually a dead end, or if capable of through movement then not normally used for that. A yard will have lots of sidings.

 

[najaB]

A siding as I've always understood it is just one track, usually a dead end, or if capable of through movement then not normally used for that.

If it's capable of through movement, doesn't that make it a loop?

 

[Railsigns]

If it's capable of through movement, doesn't that make it a loop?

It makes it a "through siding".

 

[najaB]

It makes it a "through siding".

So, here's a fun one - what's the difference between a through siding and a loop? The way it's used?

 

[Harbornite]

So, here's a fun one - what's the difference between a through siding and a loop? The way it's used?

Loops are used to give capacity for running lines, while through sidings are used to give capacity and felixbility in yards? That's the best I can think of.

 

[ComUtoR]

What about a turnback...

 

[Harbornite]

What about a turnback...

Surely that's just a siding intended for short ECS moves.

 

[najaB]

What about a turnback...

I'v always heard them referred to as 'turnback sidings'.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'v always heard them referred to as 'turnback sidings'.

Or "Turnback Road"

I wouldn't consider a turnback a sidings in any way.

ECS passenger moves.

What's ECS passenger ?

 

[6Gman]

The marshalling yard south of Crewe was officially recorded as Basford Hall Sorting Sidings!

 

[najaB]

Or "Turnback Road"

I wouldn't consider a turnback a sidings in any way.

The ORR has an official definition of what is and isn't a siding.

 

[ComUtoR]

The ORR has an official definition of what is and isn't a siding.

I love the bit where they say "in their opinion"

The problem is that we have so many different systems of classification and terms that overlap. What the ORR calls one thing, the RSSB may call another. Signallers call one thing this and Drivers call it that. The rule books states Y but has an exception Z the Sectional Appendix calls it X but its locally know as Q. Things get called A but are actually B and A was used because of the confusion with H

Don't get me started on what Northerns call things

 

[Harbornite]

Or "Turnback Road"

I wouldn't consider a turnback a sidings in any way.



What's ECS passenger ?

I should have just said ECS- empty coaching stock, or empty passenger stock. Not sure why I said passenger, I think I was inferring that turbacks aren't really used for freight.

 

[najaB]

Don't get me started on what Northerns call things

I know what you mean - ask for a teacake in Blackburn and you'd be surprised by what you get.

 

[ComUtoR]

No worries. I'm passenger so I couldn't tell you about Freight movements but I would assume that there are turnbacks for Freight.

The freight sidings I go in is mixed and they run a Freight into a headshunt, through a carriage road, onto a goods loop, loco runs back behind a dummy, back into a second goods loop, up into another headshunt, back onto the goods loop and then out via an exit road.

All in the same "sidings" that I use as ECS and to turnback my units, as well as a "Wash Road" All referred to as X Depot or X Yard or X Sidings.

I know what you mean - ask for a teacake in Blackburn and you'd be surprised by what you get.

If you re-read that document it states that the Turnbacks are included as part of the "Transport system" for ROGS definition. "Sidings" are outside the "Transport system"

We can talk about defined speeds too but it may complicate matters further. I think the answer is dependent on what you need the specific definition for. Just for the "Name" of it you should use the sexypendix everything else becomes speific to the situation.

 

[najaB]

I think I was inferring that turbacks aren't really used for freight.

Runaround sidings?

 

[ComUtoR]

Runaround sidings?

I think its the heat talking but.... Re-Marshalling sidings..

 

[Harbornite]

Runaround sidings?

You can't run around in a turn back.

 

[najaB]

You can't run around in a turn back.

A runaround does for freight what a turnback does for a multiple unit.

 

[Harbornite]

A runaround does for freight what a turnback does for a multiple unit.

That's true.

 

[ComUtoR]

A runaround does for freight what a turnback does for a multiple unit.

Explain please.

For me, a runaround is where the leading cab must become the leading cab, just in the opposite direction or leading unit. A turnback is where I go in, change ends and come back in the other facing cab. Running it around requires multiple roads to go back and forth or a 3 way turn to re-marshal.

Freight loco run around would need the same. Run in and unhook the loco, drive out, back up/drive up another line, back across another set of points to rehook onto whatever your pulling. The unit is literally run around. You can't do that in a "turnback" because you cant turn.

Turnbacks are used to come in off the mainline, change ends, go back onto the same line (or other line) in the opposite direction.

 

[30907]

The marshalling yard south of Crewe was officially recorded as Basford Hall Sorting Sidings!

And Yards can/could be MarshallIng or Goods (or many other). Apart from Yard always meaning multiple tracks (unless someone knows different...) I'm not sure there's any consistent distinction.

Southern freights would be marshalled at Basingstoke Yard, Bevois Park Sidings, Brockenhurst Yard; Salisbury West Yard and Exmouth Junction Sidings - or on the SE side at Herne Hill or Hither Green Sorting Sidings, Tonbridge or Chatham Yard.

Just goes to show.

 

[ComUtoR]

or on the SE side at Herne Hill .. Chatham Yard.

How do you marshal at Herne Hill ?
Chatham Yard ? I know the route but I couldn't tell you where Chatham Yard is.

What about Angerstine (I know that's spelt wrong) Hoo ? Stewarts Lane ? How do they differ for Freights ?

Cheers in advance.

 

[najaB]

Turnbacks are used to come in off the mainline, change ends, go back onto the same line (or other line) in the opposite direction.

Which is exactly what happens at a runaround. Train comes in with loco leading: <---- LCCCCCCC

The loco then detaches and runs around, and attaches to the other end and leaves with loco leading: CCCCCCL ----->

The train has changed direction and is being driven from the other end of the loco.

 

[ComUtoR]

That's what I thought. Doesn't that need 2 lines to do that. Going through my route knowledge, every turnback (I use) is a single road. Hence me never thinking about them in terms of being a sidings. Which is why I don't see a Freight running around in a turnback.

2 or more roads makes it a Sidings rather than a Turnback