Ticket seller doesn't know rules

[Halsebee]

I was at Paddington today travelling to Taunton, with a "Saver return" ticket from Paddington to Reading. I bought a ticket from Reading to Taunton to allow me to "split" at Reading. The ticket seller asked me to produce my ticket to Reading or he wouldn't sell me the ticket from Reading. I told him this was not required and he was obliged to sell me any ticket I requested. We had a "debate" about it. I told him this was against the rules and he was wrong, which he robustly rebuffed. I told him I was going to report him and the company for breaching NCOC rules, which he happily "invited" me to do!!
He actually seemed like a nice chap, only doing his job, but I am concerned at the lack of knowledge, or false information that is given to these people.
I am keen to pursue this further. Who do I talk to?
I can imagine the reason is to ensure people don't buy tickets from Reading onwards only, knowing there is no ticket check between London and Reading, but still against the rules.
Three further points:
When I got on the train I asked the guard if I could have bought a ticket on the train, he said yes, but I'd be better to extend my ticket before getting on.
With a saver return, return portion, can I buy and overdistance excess single, and how is the price of this calculated (Reading Taunton saver return, Reading Taunton Supersaver single).
Secondly, is it possible to buy tickets at Paddington for a Reading Taunton journey from a ticket machine?
Thirdly, if I'd got on the train at Paddington with the saver ticket and asked the guard for a supersaver Reading Taunton, before we got to Reading (i.e before I was travelling past Reading without a valid ticket), should he sell me that, as opposed to a standard open ticket?

 

[Halsebee]

This was at the ticket office at Paddington.
I had a "SVR off peak R ticket", travelling on Saturday.
I didn't refuse to show my ticket, in fact I did show it, but had I had the time to continue the dispute I might not have done in order to prove a point.
I got annoyed really because I've had this sort of issue before with clerks refusing to sell me split tickets before, "because its against the rules" etc, and I don't see why I should have to give them any information about my plans when they have no legitimate reason to know them.

 

[Fred26]

This was at the ticket office at Paddington.
I had a "SVR off peak R ticket", travelling on Saturday.
I didn't refuse to show my ticket, in fact I did show it, but had I had the time to continue the dispute I might not have done in order to prove a point.

That wouldn't have proven anything though. It would have just continued the dispute.

I got annoyed really because I've had this sort of issue before with clerks refusing to sell me split tickets before, "because its against the rules" etc, and I don't see why I should have to give them any information about my plans when they have no legitimate reason to know them.

It depends on whether the clerk thinks someone is trying to evade the fair. Frankly, I think it's the passenger who needs a good reason not to show their ticket, rather than the clerk not to ask for it.
It's a bit like asking for a railcard discount and refusing to show your railcard. I had several complaints from one passenger once because I wouldn't sell him a Travelcard with a Senior Railcard discount. If he had just shown me his card there wouldn't have been a problem.

 

[yorkie]

I was at Paddington today travelling to Taunton, with a "Saver return" ticket from Paddington to Reading. I bought a ticket from Reading to Taunton to allow me to "split" at Reading. The ticket seller asked me to produce my ticket to Reading or he wouldn't sell me the ticket from Reading.

They are in breach of the Rules of Impartial Retailing. Ask if they've heard of it.

Where a customer asks to purchase a specific fare for a specific journey, this can be sold without giving any further information (TSA clause 6-30(2)(d)).

(There are better quotes I could use but can't find them right now)

I told him this was not required and he was obliged to sell me any ticket I requested. We had a "debate" about it. I told him this was against the rules and he was wrong, which he robustly rebuffed. I told him I was going to report him and the company for breaching NCOC rules, which he happily "invited" me to do!!

I hope you got his name. Make sure you complain, and if FGW do not provide a satisfactory response, the matter should be taken further. Let us know how you get on!

He actually seemed like a nice chap, only doing his job,

But not doing it correctly. If he admitted he didn't know, he could ask a manager. But to invent rules is not acceptable. If other people in other critical jobs invent rules, they get in trouble for it and in some jobs you could get sacked for it.

but I am concerned at the lack of knowledge, or false information that is given to these people.

I share those concerns.

I am keen to pursue this further. Who do I talk to?

Complain to FGW initially, make it clear you are aware of the rules of impartial retailing, and inform them that you trust they will re-assure you that they will provide appropriate guidance to staff, but if they do not you will take the matter further.

I can imagine the reason is to ensure people don't buy tickets from Reading onwards only, knowing there is no ticket check between London and Reading, but still against the rules.

Their job is not to act as RPIs but to comply with the rules.

Three further points:
When I got on the train I asked the guard if I could have bought a ticket on the train, he said yes, but I'd be better to extend my ticket before getting on.
With a saver return, return portion, can I buy and overdistance excess single, and how is the price of this calculated (Reading Taunton saver return, Reading Taunton Supersaver single).

Different people will calculate it different ways.

Secondly, is it possible to buy tickets at Paddington for a Reading Taunton journey from a ticket machine?

Sadly not.

Thirdly, if I'd got on the train at Paddington with the saver ticket and asked the guard for a supersaver Reading Taunton, before we got to Reading (i.e before I was travelling past Reading without a valid ticket), should he sell me that, as opposed to a standard open ticket?

Common sense says he should. However sadly there doesn't appear to be anything that compels them to sell a SSR (Super Off Peak) that I can find. So they may give you the option of getting off at Reading or paying the Anytime fare from Reading.

I've had guards sell discounted tickets for future/onward travel on several TOCs and never been refused, but I have heard reports that East Coast refused to either excess or sell a discounted ticket to a customer on a train to Hull, who wanted to extend his journey to Cottingham. They would only excess it to an Anytime at a cost of around £100 for a £3ish journey. As a result, they lost the commission and the customer bought on the Northern train.

 

[RJ]

No excess for the return portion of a Saver. The ticket office clerk should sell what is requested unless there is suspicion of fraud or a TI.

 

[yorkie]

It depends on whether the clerk thinks someone is trying to evade the fair. Frankly, I think it's the passenger who needs a good reason not to show their ticket, rather than the clerk not to ask for it.
It's a bit like asking for a railcard discount and refusing to show your railcard. I had several complaints from one passenger once because I wouldn't sell him a Travelcard with a Senior Railcard discount. If he had just shown me his card there wouldn't have been a problem.

Is this your opinion on what you think the rules should be?

As it doesn't seem to bear any relation to what the rules are?

With respect, the OP is asking what the rules are, not what people think they should be...

 

[Fred26]

Is this your opinion on what you think the rules should be?

As it doesn't seem to bear any relation to what the rules are?

With respect, the OP is asking what the rules are, not what people think they should be...

Neither, it's common sense. You don't sell a ticket to someone who you think is conning you. At least until you're certain they're not.

There's certainly not any rules to say that clerks must sell a ticket to every passenger that asks for one and that every passenger must have the ticket that they ask for.

 

[Halsebee]

Thanks Yorkie, I did get the name and I will complain.

 

[Ferret]

Is this your opinion on what you think the rules should be?

As it doesn't seem to bear any relation to what the rules are?

With respect, the OP is asking what the rules are, not what people think they should be...

I've got to be honest here Yorkie, is there really a huge problem with the chap in the booking office asking to see the PAD-RDG ticket?! From a revenue protection point of view, I'm kind of pleased he did!

 

[Halsebee]

Its not the same as a Railcard. Producing a Railcard when buying tickets is a condition in the terms and conditions of the Railcard. Silly really, as you can buy at a machine or online without producing anything.
I wanted to buy my Reading Taunton ticket from a machine at Paddington, but couldn't, hence my ticket office encounter.

 

[yorkie]

Neither, it's common sense. You don't sell a ticket to someone who you think is conning you.

There is no evidence in this thread that someone is "conning" and you can't just disregard the rules of impartial retailing because you disagree with them.

At least until you're certain they're not.

Are you serious? It's a ticket sellers job to be "certain" that someone is "not conning" them? So everytime someone buys a ticket they are supposed to interrogate that person or something? You're making this up.

There's certainly not any rules to say that clerks must sell a ticket to every passenger that asks for one and that every passenger must have the ticket that they ask for.

As RJ said earlier, you should sell whatever ticket is requested.

RJ does know his stuff.

I've got to be honest here Yorkie, is there really a huge problem with the chap in the booking office asking to see the PAD-RDG ticket?!

Yes, he shouldn't be asking to see it. He should sell what is requested.

From a revenue protection point of view, I'm kind of pleased he did!

His job is not revenue protection!

There are barrier staff and guards/RPIs, it is their job to do revenue protection.

I know there is guidance to ticket office staff instructing them that they should sell a ticket from a different station, I can't find it right now.

 

[Fred26]

There is no evidence in this thread that someone is "conning" and you can't just disregard the rules of impartial retailing because you disagree with them.

I wasn't suggesting there was. I was talking generally. How is the clerk to know?

Are you serious? It's a ticket sellers job to be "certain" that someone is "not conning" them? So everytime someone buys a ticket they are supposed to interrogate that person or something? You're making this up.

No, not every time. No, not interrogate them. Passenger wants a ticket from B to C. Clerk asks to see ticket from A to B. Hardly an interrogation. It's not exactly a common occurance. I'm not making anything up.

As RJ said earlier, you should sell whatever ticket is requested.

Not without proof that part of the fair isn't being avoided.

RJ does know his stuff.

So nobody can question him? Or you, presumably?

Yes, he shouldn't be asking to see it. He should sell what is requested.

He absolutely should ask to see it. It's suspicious behaviour asking for a ticket from B to C without showing a ticket for A to B. Even more suspicious if the passenger refuses to show it.

His job is not revenue protection!

There are barrier staff and guards/RPIs, it is their job to do revenue protection.

It could be argued that the ticket clerk is the first step in revenue protection. I'm not making that argument, however.
If a clerk suspects fraud, he shouldn't just let the passenger do what they like.

I know there is guidance to ticket office staff instructing them that they should sell a ticket from a different station, I can't find it right now.

Of course. Ticket clerks can sell a ticket from anywhere to anywhere - providing it's in the system. However, that's all well and good most of the time when passengers will want a ticket for future travel (tomorrow, next week, whenever), but it's a bit different when they want it for immediate travel.

There is no way it should come down to clerks having to bow down to every whim of the passengers and just give them what they want, without being allowed to use any common sense. Clerks should always have the option of saying, 'hang on, this isn't right.'

 

[Max]

Recently I encountered a similar problem at Sheffield. I was trying to buy a Doncaster-Ashton-under-Lyne ticket and was accused of having travelled ticketless from Doncaster-Sheffield. Firstly I didn't need a ticket because I work for the PTE so have a pass and secondly I was actually wanting to travel to Doncaster to resume my journey from there. I complained to East Midlands Trains and they confirmed what RJ and Yorkie have said, that the ticket seller is obliged to sell whatever ticket the customer asks for. So I believe Halsebee is right to be irritated.

 

[bnm]

He absolutely should ask to see it. It's suspicious behaviour asking for a ticket from B to C without showing a ticket for A to B. Even more suspicious if the passenger refuses to show it.

It is NOT suspicious behaviour to ask for a ticket from B to C. What if the passenger COULDN'T show a ticket from A to B because he didn't have one? In the OP's case he was travelling throughout by rail, but it is equally possible that he was travelling by other (non-rail) means to Reading and wished to purchase his ticket at Paddington for convenience. It is not the job of a ticket clerk to interrogate passengers as to their travel arrangements. It their job to sell the ticket requested.

 

[MikeWh]

There are very few instances where a ticket seller is entitled to ask to see another ticket. One is when doing excesses (obviously); another is when issuing a boundary zone X to station Y ticket. Otherwise it's none of their business. A railcard is not a ticket (unless it's a gold card) so it's not a fair comparison.

 

[RJ]

I routinely ask what ticket the customer holds when someone asks for a ticket from B - C. Commonly Freedom Pass/All Zones TC holders will ask me for such a ticket, having misunderstood precisely what they're entitled to. With consideration to the NCOC, I often suggest cheaper alternatives to what they've asked for. If they don't show me what they have, they might unwittingly be paying more than what they need to.

 

[jon0844]

There is no way it should come down to clerks having to bow down to every whim of the passengers and just give them what they want, without being allowed to use any common sense. Clerks should always have the option of saying, 'hang on, this isn't right.'

But your comments are the exact proof that they shouldn't have that option!!

The OP could have said he was getting a lift to Reading and not using the train at all - and how could you prove he was lying? Follow him to the gateline and watch him boarding?

What next? Judging how likely they are to be telling the truth by how they look? As Yorkie says, this is for the revenue people to deal with - and if you were to somehow skip the gates to get on the train and get to Reading without a ticket, you should be taken to court and dealt with. That sort of removes the incentive for anyone to chance it, as against giving them a penalty fare which could be considered worth the risk. In any case, not the concern of the person(s) selling tickets.

 

[Fred26]

I really don't see it as such a big deal.

 

[cuccir]

I routinely ask what ticket the customer holds when someone asks for a ticket from B - C. Commonly Freedom Pass/All Zones TC holders will ask me for such a ticket, having misunderstood precisely what they're entitled to. With consideration to the NCOC, I often suggest cheaper alternatives to what they've asked for. If they don't show me what they have, they might unwittingly be paying more than what they need to.

Indeed, I'd have thought the responsible thing to do would be to ask for the other ticket! But not, I suppose, to then push the issue.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If I have read the Op correctly, Yorkie's quote from the retail standards is irrelevant, it merely states that if someone asks for a 'Super Off-Peak return' I don't have to tell them when it is valid.

If a ticket is required for immediate travel from another station a good clerk should ask how the passenger is to get there incase they needed another ticket. This IS part of the ticket office clerks job.

Imagine if they didn't and the chap 'forgot' he needed one, the first thing a dodger might say is..."I wasn't told I needed one". The number of people who have asked me if a Manchester Stns ticket is valid to start/end outside of the city centre "because the station is in 'Manchester'" is unreal.

 

[Fred26]

...and if you were to somehow skip the gates to get on the train and get to Reading without a ticket, you should be taken to court and dealt with. That sort of removes the incentive for anyone to chance it, as against giving them a penalty fare which could be considered worth the risk. In any case, not the concern of the person(s) selling tickets.

Well, I was speaking from experience where gates wouldn't have been a problem. Perhaps the same system can't be applied everywhere, I don't know.
I do understand what the rest of you're saying, but I think the clerk has to be allowed a degree of flexibility.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

To put it another way, suppose a chap comes up to me at St Pancras ticket office and asks for an Elstree to Luton day return.

I could just issue the ticket as Yorkie suggests at (for example) 9 pounds.

But if I had asked he might have an annual travelcard which he didn't know entitled him to 1/3 off, and I can now issue the same ticket for 6 pounds. Not only that, I can tell him he can go on a faster EMT service to Luton rather than the all stops train as he had thought.

Am I the better clerk for not asking?

How on earth do you expect the right ticket at the right price if we are not allowed to do our job properly?

 

[Fred26]

To put it another way, suppose a chap comes up to me at St Pancras ticket office and asks for an Elstree to Luton day return.

I could just issue the ticket as Yorkie suggests at (for example) 9 pounds.

But if I had asked he might have an annual travelcard which he didn't know entitled him to 1/3 off, and I can now issue the same ticket for 6 pounds.

Am I the better clerk for not asking?

How on earth do you expect the right ticket at the right price if we are not allowed to do our job properly?

That was better put than anything I said.

It really aggravated me if I thought someone was taking the mickey though.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... Thirdly, if I'd got on the train at Paddington with the saver ticket and asked the guard for a supersaver Reading Taunton, before we got to Reading (i.e before I was travelling past Reading without a valid ticket), should he sell me that, as opposed to a standard open ticket?

The NCoC states that you should purchase tickets for your journey before you board a train, unless there are no facilities to do so at your origin station. The guard should sell the full standard/first anytime [day] single/return for the journey where there was opportunity to buy if that is written in the passengers charter.

 

[Ferret]

Yes, he shouldn't be asking to see it. He should sell what is requested.

His job is not revenue protection!

There are barrier staff and guards/RPIs, it is their job to do revenue protection.

I know there is guidance to ticket office staff instructing them that they should sell a ticket from a different station, I can't find it right now.

Sorry Yorkie, I'm looking at this from both sides here. The one thing I would criticise the ticket office staff for based on the OP's account of events is for going for the confrontational route straight away. Apart from that, there really should not be a problem in asking the customer to show a ticket from PAD-RDG.

I also have to say that complaining to FGW may well elicit a very basic 'thanks for your concern' kind of response - in other words, a polite way of saying butt out! Ticket Office staff *can* play a role in revenue protection - he'd be perfectly entitled to bring something suspicious to an RPIs attention for instance. Say Wayne and Waynetta Slob attempted to buy New Street-Reading SVRs but their card was declined. Ticket Office staff see them head for the lifts where they won't have to pass the barriers. Should they keep their noses out as 'Revenue Protection isn't their job' or contact the crew of the train so that they can be reported?

 

[Sapphire Blue]

So are we all agreed that the conversation should have gone along the lines of:-

OP> Could I have a ticket from Reading to Taunton please?

Clerk> May I see your ticket to Reading sir?

OP> No, could you sell me the ticket please?

Clerk> Certainly, sir, here you are, that will be £X please. Oh, and you do realise, sir, that you will need a different, valid ticket if you are taking the train to Reading?

OP> Yes I realise that. Thankyou. Good day.

Clerk> Good day sir.

(For what its worth, I feel the OP was being a bit of an arse refusing to show his ticket, almost like he was trying to goad someone. BUT the clerk was in the wrong for not selling the ticket)

 

[embers25]

Bottom line is it is NONE of the clerks business how I get to point B. If I want their often (cue the arguments) incorrect advice I could ask for it. The clerks don't ask "How are you getting to B?" they asked to see a ticket and as a passenger I have NO legal obligation to show them that ticket. Also as others mention, what if I was using the coach to get to that point for example? Am I required to show the coach ticket I may not have bought yet or what if I am getting a lift that far does the clerk then refuse to sell the ticket because in their misguided eyes it's possible fraud and if so who made them RPI's and wouldn't the wonderful RMT/TSSA object to them "doing the job of someone else without the extra pay!". If the TOC's insist on purchase of tickets before boarding they should sell all tickets available before boarding at any station for any station combination and without the guilty till proven innocent approach used here. If it was the "right thing to do" the TOC's would have made it a policy by now but they haven't. In my experience it only happens rarely and to me on fGW by jobsworths at Paddington, Reading, Chippenham, Bath and Bristol. However Exeter St Davids, Exeter Central (on the rare occasions the ticket office isn't closed due to staff shortages!), Gloucester, Newton Abbot, Plymouth and Swindon all issue without question. They often take the different approach of engaging in a quick conversation, maybe remarking about the rarity of issuing such tickets and by doing that and assessing the response they can probably sense if something isn't right without flat out making the accusation which asking for the ticket does.

I also agree with Sapphire Blue's approach if they really are going to ask for a ticket. Maybe the clerk if they really must ask could just ask "Will you be needing a ticket to Reading too sir?" in a similar way that they ask "Will you be needing Underground travel?" when you buy a London ticket without a Travelcard.

 

[RJ]

To put it another way, suppose a chap comes up to me at St Pancras ticket office and asks for an Elstree to Luton day return.

I could just issue the ticket as Yorkie suggests at (for example) 9 pounds.

But if I had asked he might have an annual travelcard which he didn't know entitled him to 1/3 off, and I can now issue the same ticket for 6 pounds. Not only that, I can tell him he can go on a faster EMT service to Luton rather than the all stops train as he had thought.

Am I the better clerk for not asking?

How on earth do you expect the right ticket at the right price if we are not allowed to do our job properly?

I had the same situation once. A couple wanted tickets from B - C and I told them the price and initiated the payment. I then overheard the man saying "I pay for an Annual ticket yet have to pay so much extra." At that point I stopped the payment and asked if he had a Gold Card, which then saved them £18. I see no harm in asking at all, but some people go on the defensive immediately. If they refuse to give any details, the passenger may well be buying a more expensive than necessary ticket. Defensive people tend to complain as well, once they discover they didn't get the cheapest ticket, they then come back for a refund or send a letter of complaint. It saves everybody's time if they either show the ticket or explain how they're getting to B.

At Elephant and Castle, I asked the clerk for a single from St Mary Cray - Swanley. He refused to sell it unless I produced a Travelcard. I explained that I had PAYG credit to get to St Mary Cray and that there was time for me to touch out and board the same train but he decided he wasn't selling me the ticket. I know he was wrong. Sometimes you have to give people the benefit of the doubt after they've provided a reasonable explanation. Then if there's a complaint after the customer gets stopped by an RPI, at least you can say that the customer told me this.

 

[jon0844]

I've not said that a ticket seller can't ask some questions, such as asking if you have a season/railcard, but the point is, I've gone to a station to buy an extension for travel later. Funnily enough, this was a trip to Reading, and I got my ticket at Victoria in the morning - to travel from Paddington in the afternoon. Now, as I have a travelcard I did show it to get my discount and a ticket from the boundary, but if I was just asking for a normal point-to-point ticket then I really cannot see why I'd need to show anything. What's more, if the seller as a suspicion of some sort of fraud, I really do not accept that they should then refuse on that basis without any proof. That's a risky game for the ticket seller too - as they may then begin to discriminate on hunches based on stereotypes ('oh, he's a chav and must be trying it on'). No, let the fraudsters get caught by the right people.

But, that's said by a person who thinks TVMs should do extensions - and the penalty for being caught abusing the facility should be severe. Thus, criminals pay and honest punters can get the ticket they want without sometimes having to join huge queues, or have hassle when the offices are closed and you're now at the mercy of RPIs that consider you guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Halsebee]

So are we all agreed that the conversation should have gone along the lines of:-

OP> Could I have a ticket from Reading to Taunton please?

Clerk> May I see your ticket to Reading sir?

OP> No, could you sell me the ticket please?

Clerk> Certainly, sir, here you are, that will be £X please. Oh, and you do realise, sir, that you will need a different, valid ticket if you are taking the train to Reading?

OP> Yes I realise that. Thankyou. Good day.

Clerk> Good day sir.

(For what its worth, I feel the OP was being a bit of an arse refusing to show his ticket, almost like he was trying to goad someone. BUT the clerk was in the wrong for not selling the ticket)

The conversation was

Can I have a Reading Taunton ticket please?

FROM Reading? Can I see your ticket to Reading?

Why? I don't need to show it to buy a ticket from Reading.

Yes you do.

I don't, its not required, you are obliged to sell me any ticket I request.

Not without seeing your ticket.

You are wrong, and don't know the rules.

Yes I do

Etc, etc