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Ticket seller doesn't know rules

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penaltyfines

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Originally Posted by ATOC Retail Standards Guide
Where a customer asks to purchase a specific fare for a specific journey, this can be sold without giving any further information (TSA clause 6-30(2)(d)).

I don't see why there's so much debate - Yorkie is right. If a customer asks to buy a ticket, sure the clerk can ask to see tickets/seasons etc to give them the best value fare.

But just that - ask.

Not require.

Simples :D

That example of Bristol-Filton, Acton-Paddington - you could make a case for they should have been sold the ticket. Not because it's not suspicious or it's 'morally' right, but the clerk cannot be expected to make decisions as to what's suspicious at all, the moment you introduce that requirement it will be meted out widely differently, resulting in the above case at Paddington. 100% they should make a call to the police or get a RPI and pass on the suspicions though...

If there's another article in the manual which requires them to not sell in the case of fraud it might be different (as RJ says, just not seen a reference to it), but how is that defined... i.e. how is A-B C-D ticket requests (B and C could both be airports?) any more suspicious than B-C?
 
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hairyhandedfool

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I said in a previous post in this thread that the quote from the retail standards was mis-quoted. To put the quote into it's proper context it should be seen in full....

ATOC Retali Standards said:
C.1 Impartiality

This is the most important requirement and is necessary because Retailers will be selling tickets or giving information about different TOCs.

Retailers at impartial Points of Sale must therefore act fairly and impartially between TOCs and any information that is provided must be factual, accurate and impartial (TSA clause 6-30(1)(a)).

Impartiality simply means providing the customer with information or a ticket that is the most suitable for their needs. Retailers must not favour their own train services, or those of any TOC over others in providing information or selling the ticket.

Where a customer asks to purchase a specific fare for a specific journey, this can be sold without giving any further information (TSA clause 6-30(2)(d)).

In many cases only one fare will meet the customer’s requirements as only one TOC provides a service for the journey concerned. Even where more than one TOC is involved the customer may be specific by stating their requirements in terms of:
• Destination station
• Ticket Type
• Train
• Class

In these circumstances, the Retailer only needs to seek further information when the customer wants to make a journey that cannot be made with that fare. An example is a customer requesting a discounted fare at a time of day when this fare is not valid.

Where the customer does not specify which fare they want and more than one is available that may meet their requirements, the Retailer must seek additional information to enable the correct fare to be sold. If more than one fare is suitable for their needs, the Retailer must explain the main features of the alternatives impartially (TSA clause 6-30(2)).

so "Where a customer asks to purchase a specific fare for a specific journey, this can be sold without giving any further information (TSA clause 6-30(2)(d)). " actually means.....

You don't have to tell them the restrictions of the ticket.

Now we have that straight, can we agree that the clerk would be within their job description to ask to see a ticket, if they believe it may help reduce the cost of the journey.
 

Greenback

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Yes they can ask to see a ticket, but do they have the right to demand to see it seems to be the pertinent question now.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Well, I think yes, but they shouldn't need to do so.

The terms of the contract for which the ticket(s) are evidence, says that you must show upon request by an authorised person a valid ticket for your journey. An authorised person is a member of TOC staff, or their agents, in the course of their duties. A member of ticket office staff can't do their job properly without all the facts at their disposal, so I think they can, within reason.

But lets face it, how many people actually refuse to show a ticket (when they intend to travel by train) and how many of those have a just reason for it?
 

Deerfold

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Well, I think yes, but they shouldn't need to do so.

The terms of the contract for which the ticket(s) are evidence, says that you must show upon request by an authorised person a valid ticket for your journey. An authorised person is a member of TOC staff, or their agents, in the course of their duties. A member of ticket office staff can't do their job properly without all the facts at their disposal, so I think they can, within reason.

Presumably this is before the purchaser has started their journey. I currently have tickets for 6 journeys in the wallet in my pocket. Do I have to get them all out and show them if requested as I will be making those journeys at some point?

I'm sure it's possible that you're about to go and get an AP ticket from a machine but now realise you will need to go further than when you were planning. You see the ticket window is quiet so decide to sort that out first. Should they have to go and pick the other ticket up first?

And indeed there's the point already mentioned that you might not be using rail to get to the point where you're buying a ticket from.
 

trains2064

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As a ticket seller I agree that some people are jobs worths but we do often get customers who are as bad. I feel that staff or customer we all need to think a little of each other. I'm ment to offer the cheapest ticket from A to B it is open to interpritation if that means splitting a C or not.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Presumably this is before the purchaser has started their journey. I currently have tickets for 6 journeys in the wallet in my pocket. Do I have to get them all out and show them if requested as I will be making those journeys at some point?....

'In the course of their duties', so only relevant tickets.

....I'm sure it's possible that you're about to go and get an AP ticket from a machine but now realise you will need to go further than when you were planning. You see the ticket window is quiet so decide to sort that out first. Should they have to go and pick the other ticket up first?...

I believe in most cases the clerk can issue it, if need be.

....And indeed there's the point already mentioned that you might not be using rail to get to the point where you're buying a ticket from.

And by stating that, the clerk is in full possession of the facts and can search for the cheapest fare for your journey.
 

MikeWh

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I'm ment to offer the cheapest ticket from A to B it is open to interpritation if that means splitting a C or not.

I don't think that is open to interpretation at all. You must offer the cheapest ticket from A to B in one go. If the customer has another ticket that they show you which could form part of the journey then you can revise your advice. You are under no obligation to suggest split tickets at all, though you must sell them if the customer asks directly.

You'd need to be a rocket scientist to have even the faintest chance of working out the cheapest price for some journeys given the possibilities of split tickets, partially used tickets, rovers, etc etc etc.
 

trains2064

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I don't think that is open to interpretation at all. You must offer the cheapest ticket from A to B in one go. If the customer has another ticket that they show you which could form part of the journey then you can revise your advice. You are under no obligation to suggest split tickets at all, though you must sell them if the customer asks directly.

You'd need to be a rocket scientist to have even the faintest chance of working out the cheapest price for some journeys given the possibilities of split tickets, partially used tickets, rovers, etc etc etc.

No that's right we don't have too. You can also be asked to leave a train and catch the next one at the point where you split the ticket! Also fact although I have never met anyone who has implamented that rule.
 

MikeWh

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You can also be asked to leave a train and catch the next one at the point where you split the ticket! Also fact although I have never met anyone who has implamented that rule.

I'm sorry but that is utter and complete rubbish!
 

yorkie

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No that's right we don't have too. You can also be asked to leave a train and catch the next one at the point where you split the ticket! Also fact although I have never met anyone who has implamented that rule.
What rule? Someone just made that up. Who told you that?!

Here is the rule:
National Rail Conditions of Carriage said:
19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As a ticket seller I agree that some people are jobsworths but we do often get customers who are as bad. I feel that staff or customer we all need to think a little of each other. I'm meant to offer the cheapest ticket from A to B it is open to interpretation if that means splitting a C or not.
It's not open to interpretation. You are under no obligation to split the ticket - unless a through ticket does not exist.

If it is your job to sell tickets, I suggest you arrange for a refresher training session with your employer urgently!
 

moonrakerz

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If any one refuse to sell you a ticket on any grounds remind them of:
Newsrail Express 246.
(Circulated by The Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) to train Operating Company’s retail staff, on train staff and travel agents.)

Which states:-
"COMBINATION OF TICKETS – RETAIL COMPLIANCE AND UNDERSTANDING OF CONDITION 17 OF NATIONAL RAIL CONITIONS OF CARRIAGE (NRCoC)

Following a recent Court case there has been some confusion over the sale of more than one ticket for use on a train journey. This item is intended to clarify the position.
When a customer asks for the cheapest ticket you are not obliged to offer them a combination of tickets. However, if a customer specifically asks for a particular combination of tickets you must sell those tickets, as long as your office has the necessary fares manuals, ticket issuing system and/or reservation facilities to do so.
NRCoC 17b allows a passenger to use two or more tickets as long as they cover the entire journey and the train the passenger is travelling on calls at the station where they change from one ticket to another. There is no requirement for the passenger to change trains or momentarily step onto the platform."


It does NOT state that the ticket seller must verify that any other tickets are (or are not) in the possession of the purchaser.
Although this was issued in response to problems on "split" journeys - it applies equally to ANY ticket - you MUST be sold what you ask for.
 

jd

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If any one refuse to sell you a ticket on any grounds remind them of:
Newsrail Express 246.
(Circulated by The Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) to train Operating Company’s retail staff, on train staff and travel agents.)

Which states:-
"COMBINATION OF TICKETS – RETAIL COMPLIANCE AND UNDERSTANDING OF CONDITION 17 OF NATIONAL RAIL CONITIONS OF CARRIAGE (NRCoC)

Following a recent Court case there has been some confusion over the sale of more than one ticket for use on a train journey. This item is intended to clarify the position.
When a customer asks for the cheapest ticket you are not obliged to offer them a combination of tickets. However, if a customer specifically asks for a particular combination of tickets you must sell those tickets, as long as your office has the necessary fares manuals, ticket issuing system and/or reservation facilities to do so.
NRCoC 17b allows a passenger to use two or more tickets as long as they cover the entire journey and the train the passenger is travelling on calls at the station where they change from one ticket to another. There is no requirement for the passenger to change trains or momentarily step onto the platform."


It does NOT state that the ticket seller must verify that any other tickets are (or are not) in the possession of the purchaser.
Although this was issued in response to problems on "split" journeys - it applies equally to ANY ticket - you MUST be sold what you ask for.

In all fairness, many ticket office staff have never seen a copy of Newsrail in their lives. Though I can tell you that at least LM internally circulated a memo to the general effect of the above quoted article - I think this was in response to an incident down MK way which was posted on this forum a few months back...
 

penaltyfines

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Either way, if they refuse to sell you the ticket then board the train without it.

I've had issues with ticket office staff before, requesting to see a portion of the ticket (I hadn't picked it up from the TVM at that point) which I didn't have, not selling off-peaks before the time they are valid (stupid), not selling split tickets when specifically asked ('that combination isn't valid'), not selling boundary zone fares, etc etc. In each case I've joined the train without a ticket - when approached by the TM or an RPI (one tried to PF me but I declined) I said there were no ticket issuing facilities at the station nor opportunity to buy a ticket....

Until TVMs can issue more of the available fares (and take out what sadly seems to be one of the weakest links of the rail network - staff!) we will still have to suffer...
 

moonrakerz

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That's not entirely true, if the ticket isn't valid for the intended journey, it does not have to be sold.


Disagree ! if a passenger asks for a particular ticket he must be given it, it is not the job (or business) of the ticket clerk to enquire as to how that ticket will be used.
The would be passenger does not have to divulge his travelling intentions.

Apart from which, if you heard the "File on Four" programme on the rail industry, there seem to be plenty of ticket office clerks already selling tickets that are quite literally, not "valid for the intended journey" to unsuspecting members of the travelling public who then get hit with a PF during the journey.
 

4SRKT

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Has anyone considered the possibility that I might go into a booking office at point A in order to purchase a ticket from B to C, and then go by another mode of transport to point B to pick up the journey there? I've done this before to avoid horrendous queues at Leeds station if I happen to be at Shipley earlier in the day.

It's quite clearly none of the clerk's business asking questions about the A to B part of the journey. If I were to go into a newsagents and buy a porn mag, I would be outraged if the server refused to sell me it unless I could show I already had a packet of tissues.
 

Greenback

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I believe that there was a culture during the days of BR where the ticket fofice clerk was seen as a major part of revenue protection. These days, they are seen more as retailers, but some clerks seem to enjoy revenue protection a little too much!

Now, if Iw ant to travel beyond Swansea, where my season ticket ends, I will obviously show my ticket to the conductor when buying on the train, because I am travelling on the service and need to ave a valid ticket. If I buy at the station whne the ticket office is open, I might ask for a Swansea to Cardiff day return and I don't expect to be asked to show my season there and then. If asked, I probably would, but I have never been asked, although that may be because they recognise me and know I have an annual ticket because of my frequent requests for a replacement!

The point is that it's not the business of the clerk to see a ticket in Llanelli station, as I am not using the services of a TOC at that point. I may choose to drive to Swansea, I may have a lift, or I may even get the bus if I am stopping off on the way at somewhere that can't be accessed by train. If I was the clerk I would simply ask whether a ticket to Swansea was required as well, and that would be it.

In defence of clerks though, they are not helped by the myriad of regulations, the inconsistencies between staff information and public information, the ambiguities in the information, or the complexities of the ticketing and restrictions in this country.
 

hairyhandedfool

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You would be happy to be sold a ticket that isn't valid on your intended journey????

A clerk is not going to refuse to sell a valid ticket, but there is nothing I have seen to require them to sell a ticket that is not valid for the intended journey. I'd love to see that taken to a court room!

Or perhaps you have seen it written somewhere that I have not? Perhaps you could point me in the right direction?
 

4SRKT

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You would be happy to be sold a ticket that isn't valid on your intended journey????

A clerk is not going to refuse to sell a valid ticket, but there is nothing I have seen to require them to sell a ticket that is not valid for the intended journey. I'd love to see that taken to a court room!

Or perhaps you have seen it written somewhere that I have not? Perhaps you could point me in the right direction?

I don't think anyone would want to be sold a ticket that wasn't valid. I can't really see the relevance of your question.

The point is that it's none of the clerk's business what the intended journey is, so given that he doesn't know my plans (and shouldn't make assumptions), how can he judge whether the requested ticket is valid or not? If I go to Shipley station and buy a ticket from Leeds to Doncaster he should not interrogate me on how I intend to use that ticket. He should sell me what I ask for and if I use that outside the validity of what I've asked for then that's my fault. He can advise (if asked), but should not intervene in any other way.
 
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Greenback

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I think that is a very reasonable interpretation and summary of the current situation.
 

jd

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I think the difference depends on what you ask the clerk for. If you turned up at New Street and asked for 'a ticket to London', you'd expect to be given one valid there and then, from New St to London. If you went and specifically asked for a SOR from Coventry to London, you should be given that, no questions asked, even though its not valid from New Street - because you have specified a particular ticket.

I know of ticket office staff who will sell anything you want, but merely ADVISE that it won't be valid - this seems like an ideal compromise to me, because the customer's right to buy any ticket they ask for is preserved, but there can also be no claim of ignornance of the rules on the part of the customer. For example, somebody who insists on an off-peak ticket before 0930.
 

Greenback

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I know of ticket office staff who will sell anything you want, but merely ADVISE that it won't be valid - this seems like an ideal compromise to me, because the customer's right to buy any ticket they ask for is preserved, but there can also be no claim of ignornance of the rules on the part of the customer. For example, somebody who insists on an off-peak ticket before 0930.

That's exaclty what I would have done during my ticket office career. And to stop people claiming they hadn't been advised, I would stmap the ticket siwht either 'Validity Advised' or 'See Restrictions'.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I don't think anyone would want to be sold a ticket that wasn't valid. I can't really see the relevance of your question.

The point is that it's none of the clerk's business what the intended journey is, so given that he doesn't know my plans (and shouldn't make assumptions), how can he judge whether the requested ticket is valid or not? If I go to Shipley station and buy a ticket from Leeds to Doncaster he should not interrogate me on how I intend to use that ticket. He should sell me what I ask for and if I use that outside the validity of what I've asked for then that's my fault. He can advise (if asked), but should not intervene in any other way.

I think 'interogate' is a bit harsh frankly. Passengers want the cheapest fare and when they do ask for a specific fare, in my experience, I would say the majority aren't actually aware of the restrictions and ask for the wrong fare. What you are saying is that I should just issue it regardless of it being valid. I think that is the wrong attitude to have.

Many people ask for 'open returns' because they want to return at any time that day, but what they actually want is an Off-Peak day or Anytime Day return, which is often substancially cheaper. When they ask for an 'Anytime Return to Manchester Airport, I often comment that singles would be cheaper in most cases and certainly no more expensive. Yet in both these situations you think I should just issue the specific ticket.

Now I will say that I personally have never refused to issue a ticket, but that doesn't mean that I should blindly issue specific fares when requested.

Also, if both parties know the ticket is not what the passenger needs or even if it is just the clerk that knows, where does the responsibility lie? If the passenger gets on a train that the ticket isn't valid for, do you think they will say 'oh I didn't realise, it was my fault because I asked for the specific fare and [they] have to sell it'? or is it more likely they will say, 'the clerk didn't say it wasn't valid'?

I think the difference depends on what you ask the clerk for. If you turned up at New Street and asked for 'a ticket to London', you'd expect to be given one valid there and then, from New St to London. If you went and specifically asked for a SOR from Coventry to London, you should be given that, no questions asked, even though its not valid from New Street - because you have specified a particular ticket....

But what of 'open returns' and 'savers', in my experience both have been used to ask for Off-Peak Day Returns.

....I know of ticket office staff who will sell anything you want, but merely ADVISE that it won't be valid - this seems like an ideal compromise to me, because the customer's right to buy any ticket they ask for is preserved, but there can also be no claim of ignornance of the rules on the part of the customer. For example, somebody who insists on an off-peak ticket before 0930.

It's a fair situation, and often what I do. It alerts the passenger to potential problems whilst 'giving them what they want'. When I have done so and it turns out the ticket is not valid or not the cheapest fare, often the response is some remark about 'the website being wrong' or 'why did the website say...' or something like that.

I have asked if people have tickets to get to the origin, or how they intend to get there and in those cases, and when they are travelling by train, they have had no problem with showing the ticket without being asked for it, or have asked if I want to see the ticket and producing it. I personally wouldn't demand to see it, although I've never needed to, but again, there is no reason why we can't if it is relevant ticket.
 

4SRKT

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I think 'interogate' is a bit harsh frankly. Passengers want the cheapest fare and when they do ask for a specific fare, in my experience, I would say the majority aren't actually aware of the restrictions and ask for the wrong fare. What you are saying is that I should just issue it regardless of it being valid. I think that is the wrong attitude to have.

A reasonable point TBF. I guess I'm looking at it too much from my own POV, where I already know in advance exactly what I want. Most normals probably don't.
 

Greenback

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Depending on the circumstances, it may be possible for a ticket to be excessed, in which case the clerk would need tos ee the ticket the customer has. So I have no objection to being asked if I have a ticket, but I think it is up to the customer whether they feel the need to show it.
 
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