ticket rules

[sevenhills]

Hi

Are the methods and rules on getting a ticket to travel by train posted at stations or on trains for the information of the public?
A friend of mine is a train gaurd, and being a poster on here, I get the general rules. But I havnt seen these rules on when I should get a ticket, and the bylaws ect.
Being only an occational user, I find that you can either buy tickets in advance that might be cheaper, but if you cannot do that, then its before you board the train or from the gaurd. But do most people know that you should not board a train without a ticket?

4. from personal experience, I come across a dozen people a day with the same story as the OP, some with a partial ticket, some with none at all, all ask for a ticket from Cardiff. The general attitude (see note 1) is that if challenged they will pay, otherwise it's a free ride. A significant proportion expect it to be a free ride full stop.

It seems that many people dont buy tickets before boarding; is this the fault of the train companies?

 

[EM2]

I simply cannot understand why someone would think that they shouldn't buy a ticket before boarding.
Isn't it logical that you need to pay the fare to travel, and you should do that before you catch the train, if it's possible?

 

[cuccir]

There are still large parts of the country where it's not possible to buy a ticket before boarding.

Elsewhere, I'd say that it's fairly well publicized.

Ultimately, if you're using a service, it's not too much to expect people to look for how they should.pay, rathe than.running off assumptions.

 

[ainsworth74]

It depends on the area, a lot of stations in Northern Rail land have no means of buying before travel (and even when the do until recently guards were very lax about enforcing the rules) which means that it's been common practice for decades to buy on-board rather than make any attempt to buy before travel. Also remember most (if not all) buses up north you buy the ticket from the driver as you board rather than buying it before travel like you do in London (I believe) if you don't have Oyster. So I think there is a certain element of regional practice to it.

As for rules, you can find the Railway Byelaws here and probably the most important from a ticketing point of view the National Rail Conditions of Carriage which can be found here (it quite long but the introduction contains a reasonable summary).

 

[RJ]

Hi

Are the methods and rules on getting a ticket to travel by train posted at stations or on trains for the information of the public?
A friend of mine is a train gaurd, and being a poster on here, I get the general rules. But I havnt seen these rules on when I should get a ticket, and the bylaws ect.
Being only an occational user, I find that you can either buy tickets in advance that might be cheaper, but if you cannot do that, then its before you board the train or from the gaurd. But do most people know that you should not board a train without a ticket?



It seems that many people dont buy tickets before boarding; is this the fault of the train companies?

If you read the back of any railway ticket, it will tell you that travel is subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Therein, it will explain the relevance of the Byelaws, National Routeing Guide and any other relevant documents.

The NRCoC explains everything and I'm sure there is a reference to them at every station on the network. Whether people choose to look into it or not is up to them.

 

[matthewmacleod]

If you read the back of any railway ticket, it will tell you that travel is subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Therein, it will explain the relevance of the Byelaws, National Routeing Guide and any other relevant documents.

The NRCoC explains everything and I'm sure there is a reference to them at every station on the network. Whether people choose to look into it or not is up to them.

Technically correct of course, but kind of missing the point!

Surely one of the goals of the railway network is to make it as easy and pain-free to travel on it as practically possible? Expecting casual customers to read reams of documentation before travel, and indeed having the attitude that this is somehow acceptable, is not conducive to this goal.

I can accept that rail travel is complex, and ultimately there has to be a firm set of rules to manage this. But simpler and clearer rules are always a good thing.

 

[sevenhills]

The experience of Flamingo is that many people dont follow the rule of buying a ticket at the station, so the gaurds in this case are accepting that its not neccessary, just get on on the train and buy a ticket.
So its the gaurds fault,

 

[tbtc]

There are still large parts of the country where it's not possible to buy a ticket before boarding

In terms of the number of stations, yes.

But in terms of station useage statistics, I'd imagine that a very high proportion of journeys start at stations where you can purchase a ticket before travel (either from a ticket office or a machine).

Does anyone know the "busiest" station without such facilities?

 

[Roylang]

In terms of the number of stations, yes.

But in terms of station useage statistics, I'd imagine that a very high proportion of journeys start at stations where you can purchase a ticket before travel (either from a ticket office or a machine).

Does anyone know the "busiest" station without such facilities?

There are many busy stations that even though they have ticket offices they are not open for the entire period that trains operate. I often travel early/late from Winchester and have to make a special trip (25 odd miles round trip) just to buy the tickets I need for travel a few days later.

Roy

 

[maniacmartin]

Hi
then its before you board the train or from the guard.

No, its before you travel, and only from a guard if the origin station has no ticket vending facilities.

The problem stems from multiple sources

• You can pay on-board on other methods of public transport - bus, coach, taxi.
• The public aren't always aware that the railways have their own bylaws and fares legislation, and don't bother to read the back of their tickets where the NRCoC is referenced.
• Some guards will happily sell tickets when you board at a station with ticket-purchasing facilities, without telling the passenger that they really should have bought a ticket in advance, so people assume its OK to always buy on board

I believe if guards sell tickets to people who board at stations where they could have bought tickets, they should inform the passenger that they should have bought the ticket beforehand, and could have been prosecuted. Of course, with guards receiving commission on ticket sales, you can see why some might be reluctant to do so

 

[Roylang]

No, its before you travel, and only from a guard if the origin station has no ticket vending facilities.

The problem stems from multiple sources

• You can pay on-board on other methods of public transport - bus, coach, taxi.
• The public aren't always aware that the railways have their own bylaws and fares legislation, and don't bother to read the back of their tickets where the NRCoC is referenced.
• Some guards will happily sell tickets when you board at a station with ticket-purchasing facilities, without telling the passenger that they really should have bought a ticket in advance, so people assume its OK to always buy on board

I believe if guards sell tickets to people who board at stations where they could have bought tickets, they should inform the passenger that they should have bought the ticket beforehand, and could have been prosecuted. Of course, with guards receiving commission on ticket sales, you can see why some might be reluctant to do so

It is never quite that simple though - take St.Erth station in Cornwall. The station can be very busy when the weather is nice, even "off-season"*. At some times of the year the ticket office although open says "back in ten minutes" at the counter as the staff also have to dispatch trains. This can lead to very long queues and people having waited a good 15-20 minutes sometimes board the St.Ives train with no ticket.

I know this is not a penalty fares area and that most guards are very understanding, but I have seen guards refuse railcars discounts to those that join without a ticket. Given it is a half-hourly serice, is it reasonable to expect passengers to arrive in time for the previous train just to allow time to buy a ticket for the next train? Worse still, for travel to Penzance the next train may be several hours later - what then?

Roy

* Note - the weather is usually nicer off-season

 

[maniacmartin]

This question of how long is reasonable to queue has come up multiple times and there is no official stance from ATOC that I know of.

Does "back in 10 minutes" mean the no ticket purchasing facilities exist anyway as the ticket office is closed ? I'm sure that could be argued in the specific example you gave.

 

[island]

It is never quite that simple though - take St.Erth station in Cornwall. The station can be very busy when the weather is nice, even "off-season"*. At some times of the year the ticket office although open says "back in ten minutes" at the counter as the staff also have to dispatch trains. This can lead to very long queues and people having waited a good 15-20 minutes sometimes board the St.Ives train with no ticket.

I know this is not a penalty fares area and that most guards are very understanding, but I have seen guards refuse railcars discounts to those that join without a ticket. Given it is a half-hourly serice, is it reasonable to expect passengers to arrive in time for the previous train just to allow time to buy a ticket for the next train? Worse still, for travel to Penzance the next train may be several hours later - what then?

Roy

* Note - the weather is usually nicer off-season

If the booking office is shut and there is no TVM, passengers are permitted to buy the full range of tickets on board.

 

[Yew]

I simply cannot understand why someone would think that they shouldn't buy a ticket before boarding.
Isn't it logical that you need to pay the fare to travel, and you should do that before you catch the train, if it's possible?

On busses you pay the driver, on the many ungated stations without ticket offices or tvm's you buy on board.

 

[Greenback]

Does "back in 10 minutes" mean the no ticket purchasing facilities exist anyway as the ticket office is closed ? I'm sure that could be argued in the specific example you gave.

Yes, in my view, as the office is closed, albeit for a limited time.

There is a lot of inconsistency across the country. In ATW land, it seems to be perfectly acceptable to ignore the open ticket office and TVM and buy on board. Yet if you do this in parts of FGW land you could potentially get a PF, have to buy an undiscounted ticket, or face prosecution, while in FCC land you will probably just be prosecuted.

Seriously though, is it any wonder that some people are genuinely confused, or that some people take advantage of this and try and play the system?

 

[londonbridge]

Also remember most (if not all) buses up north you buy the ticket from the driver as you board rather than buying it before travel like you do in London (I believe) if you don't have Oyster.

It is only in central London that you are required to purchase a ticket before boarding. The stops have ticket machines and are clearly marked as "buy tickets before boarding on all routes". In outer London you can still pay cash as you board.

 

[Deerfold]

It is only in central London that you are required to purchase a ticket before boarding. The stops have ticket machines and are clearly marked as "buy tickets before boarding on all routes". In outer London you can still pay cash as you board.

Although expect to pay nearly twice as much if paying with cash on board (or at one of the roadside ticket machines).

 

[WelshBluebird]

I simply cannot understand why someone would think that they shouldn't buy a ticket before boarding.

Because in quite a lot of areas, you DON'T buy a ticket before boarding because they are no ways to do so!
So if someone is only used to travelling by train in those areas, or indeed from just a handful of stations, then its easy to see why that person would think it is fine to buy onboard anywhere.

 

[TWPacer]

Then there are stations which i think are in a bit of a grey area - those that are long-standing unstaffed ones, particularly on Northern but have recently had ticket machines fitted. An example of this that I know is Burnley Manchester Road. However I get the impression that on train staff are still ok with selling tickets on train and to be fair when a) they only exist on one platform direction and it may not be immediately apparent from the other direction that a ticket machine exists and b) are perhaps not easy to operate, particularly for the elderly or infirm - are conductors actually instructed to be more lenient in stations like this?

 

[ainsworth74]

It is only in central London that you are required to purchase a ticket before boarding. The stops have ticket machines and are clearly marked as "buy tickets before boarding on all routes". In outer London you can still pay cash as you board.

Ah thanks for clearing that up. My excuse is that I go to central London infrequently, outer London even less and travel by bus in London basically never (twice in twenty-two years and both times using Oyster)

 

[EM2]

Because in quite a lot of areas, you DON'T buy a ticket before boarding because they are no ways to do so!
So if someone is only used to travelling by train in those areas, or indeed from just a handful of stations, then its easy to see why that person would think it is fine to buy onboard anywhere.

There's a difference between thinking 'I shouldn't have to buy a ticket before I board' and 'I can't buy a ticket before I board'.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There's a difference between thinking 'I shouldn't have to buy a ticket before I board' and 'I can't buy a ticket before I board'.

But if you have only ever travelled in an area where you can't buy a ticket before you board, then there is a good chance that you may well think that you can buy on board anywhere (as that is all you are used to).

Then of course you have the fact that some TOC's DO allow you to buy on board, even if there are facilities to buy at the origin station.

Its no wonder some people get confused about it.

 

[transmanche]

It is only in central London that you are required to purchase a ticket before boarding. The stops have ticket machines and are clearly marked as "buy tickets before boarding on all routes". In outer London you can still pay cash as you board.

(Except route W7!)

FWIW, TfL are currently planning to scrap the roadside ticket machines - now that only 1% of journeys are paid for in cash.

 

[Roylang]

Yes, in my view, as the office is closed, albeit for a limited time.

There is a lot of inconsistency across the country. In ATW land, it seems to be perfectly acceptable to ignore the open ticket office and TVM and buy on board. Yet if you do this in parts of FGW land you could potentially get a PF, have to buy an undiscounted ticket, or face prosecution, while in FCC land you will probably just be prosecuted.

Seriously though, is it any wonder that some people are genuinely confused, or that some people take advantage of this and try and play the system?

But the problem is that the guards who argue against railcard discounts on board are often unaware that the ticket office was shut for a train dispatch, especially on those services that have run down from London. As far as they are concerned, the normal ticket office hours for the station apply.

And for those that mentioned it, there is no TVM at St.Erth.

Roy

 

[island]

Because of that, if I ever travel from a location where the full range of tickets are not available (or no tickets at all are available, but they usually are), I take a photograph to use as evidence. This is not obligatory under the NRCoC, but saves a whole host of issues.

 

[bluenoxid]

(Except route W7!)

FWIW, TfL are currently planning to scrap the roadside ticket machines - now that only 1% of journeys are paid for in cash.

Yes the consultation has just closed IIRC

 

[dcsprior]

You should be able to buy your ticket on the train (perhaps with some exceptions for exceptionally busy commuter railways that're more like the Subway/Underground than normal trains).

Barriers are a way for train companies to cut back on staff by not having to provide a conductor on the train, but still guarantee revenue - meaning the customer gets a worse service as they have to allow for an extra wait just in case. I'm guessing this extra 5 minutes would account for at least a 10% increase in time on the average journey.

I travelled quite a lot by train in the late 1990's, mainly between Stirling/Edinburgh/Glasgow/Perth/Dundee; I then didn't use the railway much until 2011 but have used it a lot this past year, mainly between Edinburgh/London but also a few other destinations as well as on some local services in London. This change for the worse happened sometime in the interim and I can't remember much publicity about it.

Presumably there must've been laws passed to criminalise what used to be considered a perfectly acceptable thing to do (walking onto a train expecting to be able to buy a ticket on board, just like you can on a bus) - did these get much coverage? I'd have thought quite a few people would've objected to them.

 

[Flamingo]

The laws have been in place since the reign of Queen Victoria, so they should not come as a shock to anybody.

Your idea is fine in some Utopian dream, but in the real world, there are a lot of people out there who would never pay if they did not have to pay before boarding.

The role of the on-board ticket checker is not to sell tickets, it's to check tickets, and take appropriate action with people who do not have them.

On a pedantic point, it is not the primary or even secondary role of a conductor, who in the context it is used in the UK, is the Guard, a safety-critical role.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I prefer to travel from Blackpool South. There are no ticket facilities at the station. Just sit on the train, and the nice conductor sells you any ticket/s you want as you eat up the miles!
The emphasis has changed on the railway, from regular ticket checks and collections, to making it the responsibility of passengers ensuring they purchase a ticket. Bit like pay & display car parks.
The law hasn't changed, and there never has been free rides on BR yet!
Suppose the worst case scenario could be an announcement that a Welsh or other service being curtailed after 7pm, and withdrawal of Sunday services as there are too few ''paying'' customers!

 

[Yew]

Unfortuantely In the reign of queen victoria, they didnt account for TVM's in the law.

My personal opinion is that outside of High frequenct service areas, 5 mins before the train leaves the staff should let people through the abrriers to pay on the train, people should never be left behind due to queue's at underprovisioned ticket offices.