Ticket gates in the West Midlands

[Broken Viking]

Legally the ticket belongs to the Company which issued it, and should be surrended upon completion of the journey.
Remember I am just the messenger !

Oh, I forgot about that! Suppose I'd better find a big A2 envelope to put all of those Chiltern ones in for return! Does anyone have a freepost address to hand?...
(Although I'd imagine that - Given the majority of us here keep our tickets as memerobilia where possible - This rule, though in existance, is only enforced at some manual checkpoints and appropriately configured CTS gates, and is not a binding condition...Right? )

How does this equate with regards to e-tickets though? Would I have to surrender my mobile phone to the issuing TOC upon completion of my journey? hock:

I think you will find that Centro (WMPTE) policy is no barriers, and no ticket checks.

...And no revenue from the 25% of people who prefer to "bunk" the fare too, I imagine?... :roll:

 

[asylumxl]

Do you have any facts to back this statement up. In the twelve years I've been a guard the only drunk people I've had trouble have been drunk long before getting near a trolley service.

Facts? Define facts. This is from my personal experience. I've been on many NXEC and FGW services where people have bought beer after beer from the bar and caused nuisance to other passengers. I admit I have no figures or news reports to back it up.

How is prohibiting drunks from boarding a train going to help if the train sells alcohol anyway?

 

[SWT Driver]

It seems a shame and a sad fact of today's society that a few (minority) people can't take alcoholic drink anymore, so they spoil it for the majority who can & do control themselves when it comes to the consumption of alcohol.

 

[asylumxl]

It seems a shame and a sad fact of today's society that a few (minority) people can't take alcoholic drink anymore, so they spoil it for the majority who can & do control themselves when it comes to the consumption of alcohol.

I agree there. I don't believe the TOCs have a limit on the amount someone can buy, but I do think it would be a good idea...

 

[bengolding]

The key issue I have with the manual ticket gate at New St and the automatic ones installed at various EMT stations in the Midlands, is that they are left permanently open every day from a certain early time I won't mention in the evening. This defies the principle of having the gates in the first place to protect revenue, allowing many people to travel for free after this time when they are most needed, as either the origin ticket office is shut or the guard doesn't come round to check/sell tickets (particular problem on late trains).

 

[jon0844]

No point hiding the data; I'm sure the evaders know anyway.

Hatfield closes at 8pm in the week and staff were to remain checking tickets until 9pm.. now they open the side gate and go at 8pm with everyone else.

I have not seen a late night check in well over a year there, and presume people happily use the trains as a convenient shuttle to/from WGC.

 

[Lampshade]

Errr....sorry ?

The biggest thing that puts off punters is the number of scrotes who are allowed to hang about stations without let or hindrance, bring with them an unpleasant atmosphere which to many people is construed as (and can be) threatening.

In certain suburban areas, the availability of cheap tickets and/or the lack of any form of access control means that the Railway and its trains become an extended "territory" which the scum use at leisure.

Having checked your age you are obviously not familiar with the fact that it is only in recent years that stations have had ticket barriers removed and been de-manned. Prior to that except on the smallest stations you had to pass through a barrier, and I do not recall mass rioting from punters who objected.

Well I don't know how you managed that because my age isn't publically accessible on this forum, and my username is unique so you couldn't search other forums either :roll:

I know full well that stations had barriers in the 60s/70s/80s, even my local station had them, I'm just saying that automatic ticket gates are not the answer, they should only be installed if there is enough evidence and research to suggest there is no alternative, which is not the case at present, NXEC for example have not proved that there is no other case, they are just going ahead and installing them.

I think now that the railways are privatised as opposed to previously, there is going to be more opposition as people will think that private companies have no right to restrict our movement; I for one respect Nick Griffin more than I do Stagecoach - and I was at the protest at which he got egged

 

[90019]

Well I don't know how you managed that because my age isn't publically accessible on this forum, and my username is unique so you couldn't search other forums either :roll:

From your profile:

Age
19

 

[Lampshade]

From your profile:

Age
19

Damn, I was only looking on the left, that's where it usually is

EDIT: Anyway, it doesn't matter whether I'm 19 or 90, it's my opinion.

 

[jon0844]

I know that the romantic view of the railway is that of a nice open station with friendly staff watering the plants and saying 'hello' to all the passengers that know each other.

The reality is that a section of the public will find any reason to fare evade - and you can see a changing culture in that people who DO buy tickets but don't get checked start to think 'Why do I bother' instead of realising that they're doing the right thing and not being checked doesn't change the fact that you did what you're expected to do.

I wonder how we got to a time where we decided that if there's nobody to stop us, we can do what we like?

It's for this reason that gatelines and other checks are a necessarily evil and I wouldn't have a problem with them going up everywhere - even stations that are currently unmanned. That would mean staffing these stations, which in turn would make the railway safer (or at least the perception).

Of course, that won't happen (and I live in the real world - I know it couldn't happen) unless we adopted the policy in London where all stations are staffed when trains are running.

Perhaps, given the number of people unemployed, the Government should be looking at funding staffing for public transport - instead of paying unemployment. Bob Crow would presumably like this!

 

[Old Timer]

91017
Auto ticket gates have the advantage that every ticket can be checked and the system allows a rejected ticket to have a reason displayed, i. e. already used.

Whilst a manned barrier has some advantages, at busy times, the tickets become a "blur" and there is a better than evens chance that an out of date ticket will not be picked up.

Think about the time it takes a Guard to check a ticket on the train as opposed to the time available to scan a ticket from a much greater distance in a throng of people that are trying to rush through a manual barrier. This is why "locked down" station ticket checks result in long queues.

Manned stations with some form of entry control will always do much to deter undesirables, but are not the full solution. That can only come from a rigorous approach to removal and Prosecution of those who merit it.

Unfortunately the legal system is reluctant to take these people to task in any meaningful manner for a variety of reasons already well known about on here I am sure.

New York found, as did Sunderland interestingly enough, that tackling low level crime and anti-social behaviour with a harsh approach resulted in large reductions in more serious anti-social crime.

Unfortunately this proved to be too embarrassing a truth for a Government bent on a softly softly approach which by comparison was clearly not working, and thus by some very underhand and Politically motivated machinations, the Police Officer who was bringing in these reductions in crime was subject to a whole series of untrue accusations and vilifications of his character and probity, resulting in him having to leave the Police Force.

After years of this softly softly approach, we see increasing violence amongst the younger age population, and a general deterioration in attitude by those in their late teens and 20s/early 30s towards authority in any shape or form.

Until more effective action is taken in a co-ordinated manner by a whole array of organisations, with full support from the Judicial system, unbarriered railway stations and unchecked trains will remain the preferred medium for the particular sub-breed of scrotes, and ne'er do wells that I am sure are familiar to many if not all of us on here.

 

[jon0844]

The crime reduction in the north (wasn't it Middlesbrough?) was quite staggering when the police had their zero tolerance approach.

And more police being tougher in New York has made that a safer city than London hasn't it? I may be wrong, but I felt safer in New York than here.

One big difference was how friendly the locals were (quite the opposite of how they're portrayed in film). Anyone looking at a map was instantly approached and asked if they wanted help - and even if we consider the 'how are you today' line to be quite false - it did seem that most actually cared (a little bit).

Over here, where the image is of extremely polite-Brits, I have never felt that people give a damn about others on the street and on public transport; it's a dog eat dog world.

Exceptions always come when something goes wrong and everyone on a train suddenly has a feeling of unity with others - in blaming the train company or whatever.

Will a change of Government see the legal system becoming tough on crime? I fear not.

 

[Waddon]

There will always be people trying to evade fares, and ticket barriers are only part of the solution. Problem is that if there are barriers, the scroats know that it is less likely they will be checked on the trains, and also they can just get the cheapest fare necessary to get through the barrier, or just jump over the fence, and then travel around at will.

Look at London Underground - barriers everywhere, but I've only once seen a ticket inspector onboard the train, and that's in 20+ years of regular commuting, and no-one can deny there's a fair collection of drunks, vagrants and plain old nutcases riding on the tube!

The best solution all round seems to be a mixture of barriers, and random ticket inspections both on trains and on stations, plus of course serious fines and prosecution for serial evaders. Keep the evaders on their toes, and maybe they'll think twice.

 

[Old Timer]

The crime reduction in the north (wasn't it Middlesbrough?) was quite staggering when the police had their zero tolerance approach......

Yes, you are correct and I was in error.

I did start to write Middlesbrough but changed it. Probably thinking of Chris Rea !

As for changes in Judicial Policy, I rather fear that as the medicine is not working, all that will be offered by the Leftist Intellectuals will be a larger dose. They do rather seem to be in the ascendancy, despite more and more evidence that their beliefs do not produce the promised results but rather make things worse.

A bit similar to Multi-Culturalism, and the teaching of Reading, which after years of following elitist ideals, it has finally been realised that what people had said all along (and been vilified for) was actually correct.

Multi-Culturalism has created vast gulfs and children taught to read using the "old school" approach do much better than those using modern word recognition techniques.

 

[Mojo]

The ticket gates at Snow Hill were installed several months ago and have been operational for a number of months now, ditto for University and Five Ways. As the OP says the gates are not staffed after about 7pm (normally a few minutes earlier) - I don't know about Sundays. The ones at Moor Street were installed at the same time but are still not yet working - they seem to be building something by the other entrance so I guess they're waiting for that to be completed to avoid a hole in the system!

For what it's worth, I agree with the barriers for all journeys but only where there are adequate numbers to allow people to enter and leave without delay, and where adequate staffing is provided. I see no point in installing barriers if they're only to be operational 7am-7pm.

 

[Greenback]

Agree with your secodn paragraph Mojo!

I use one barriered station almost every day. The barrier staff are great but there are only ever a maximum of two on, one for the entry barriers and one for the exit barriers. The trouble begins when one is on a break, handing in lost property or selling a ticket in the office by the barriers. This leaves the other member of staff to deal with two gatelines. This can be a nightmare when a busy train arrives, and there are also people trying to get on to the platforms who need help because of luggage, or their ticket won't work the barrier (pften because they'v ejust nipped out for a smoke!). The barriers are also usually left open after 1900, which, as has been pointed out, is when the ticket office is closed and the naughty people come out to play!

 

[Lampshade]

Here's a point, if barriers are going to be installed, at least make part of the station a Compulsory Ticket Area, which IIRC requires all TOCs serving the station to operate a penalty fares scheme.

 

[jon0844]

I see no point in installing barriers if they're only to be operational 7am-7pm.

Especially when many people after 7 or 8pm are only just off out and will come back even later - so it's not as if you could argue that they must have bought a ticket when they travelled in the morning/day, so why check them twice.

 

[Greenback]

I travelled at 1900 on a Saturday night and the two car train was so full the guard couldn't physically get through to check the tickets! All ticket offices on the route had closed, and the barriers were open at the destination! Even if someone had wanted to pay there was no opportunity to do so! I hasten to add I was using my season ticket!

Apart from the lost revenue, what sort of effect must this have on usage figures?

 

[matt]

I think you will find that Centro (WMPTE) policy is no barriers, and no ticket checks.

If that is the case then why are there barriers at other West Midland stations in the centro area such as New Street, Moor Street and Wolverhampton?

 

[Lampshade]

If that is the case then why are there barriers at other West Midland stations in the centro area such as New Street, Moor Street and Wolverhampton?

Are there barriers at New Street?

As for Wolverhamption, I thought VT didn't like barriers at their stations

 

[Broken Viking]

There will always be people trying to evade fares, and ticket barriers are only part of the solution. Problem is that if there are barriers, the scroats know that it is less likely they will be checked on the trains, and also they can just get the cheapest fare necessary to get through the barrier, or just jump over the fence, and then travel around at will.

As for changes in Judicial Policy, I rather fear that as the medicine is not working, all that will be offered by the Leftist Intellectuals will be a larger dose. They do rather seem to be in the ascendancy, despite more and more evidence that their beliefs do not produce the promised results but rather make things worse.

I agree wholeheartedly with the above statements...It's the current "softly softly" approach to crime that's giving people the impression that they can get away with just about anything!

I wonder...Would people be so willing to blatantly attempt to evade the fare if the penalty was me severing the head from their shoulders with my great War Axe?...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are there barriers at New Street?

No, there are no automated barriers there...But manual ticket checks are frequently conducted, going on personal experience.

 

[matt]

Are there barriers at New Street?

As for Wolverhamption, I thought VT didn't like barriers at their stations

There are manual ticket barriers. Moor Street are automatic I think

 

[Old Timer]

Are there barriers at New Street?

As for Wolverhamption, I thought VT didn't like barriers at their stations

Well certainly because those stations are not controlled by Centro, although it may well be the case that things are now moving on as far as gated stations are concerned and if so well and good.

The WM suburban area has been a playground for the last 25 years, IF Centro have now changed their Policy all well and very good.

 

[ian959]

If that is the case then why are there barriers at other West Midland stations in the centro area such as New Street, Moor Street and Wolverhampton?

There are no barriers at Wolverhampton, at least up until last month (and as far as I can recall never have been).

 

[Mojo]

Centro are no longer a co-signatory to the West Midlands Franchise Agreement and therefore any agreements are an issue between LM and the DfT. Although I'm sure if Centro have funded any facilities then they'd have a say. I've had this confirmed to me by one of their Legal Executives.

 

[Old Timer]

I had a look at the Centro website to see what involvement THEY think they have so far as the West Midlands is concerned. Here is what it says.

Stations

There are 63 Centro-supported rail stations in the region, making it easy for customers to get out-and-about the West Midlands.

Over the past few years, Rail Real Time Information has been installed at rail stations in the West Midlands so passengers no longer need to wonder when their next train will arrive.

Rail travellers are now able to look at electronic information displays and hear automatic passenger announcements which tell them the exact time that their train is due by linking in to signalling technology.

The system has been funded by Centro and the Department for Transport's Access for All Small Schemes Fund at a total cost of £4.5million.

Investment in congestion-cutting schemes, such as Park and Ride sites at rail stations is an important part of our efforts to encourage more people onto public transport.

Over £17 million has been invested since 1997 and the car parks take 2.5 million car journeys off the West Midlands' congested roads every year. Around 6,200 spaces are provided at 37 stations, and all have 'Safer Parking' accreditation in recognition of low crime and vandalism levels.

Timetabling

Network Rail, on behalf of the DfT, has delivered a new January 2009 West Coast timetable, coinciding with the completion of the next phase of infrastructure enhancements.

The timetable delivers some significant benefits for the West Midlands, including a 20-munute frequency service between Birmingham New Street and London Euston.

The timetable has also delivered changes for local passengers and Centro has specified frequency improvements on the Walsall Line, Cross City Line and Stratford Line. Marston Green and Tile Hill have also had their services improved.

Strategy

Centro and partners have published a Draft of the West Midlands Region Rail Development Plan which covers network-wide issues such as reliability and access, as well as the development of services, facilities, and other infrastructure on a detailed line by line basis – essentially giving the detail needed to build into funding bids, and developmental work with partners and building on the work, currently being undertaken by Network Rail, to produce the West Midlands and Chiltern Route Utilisation Strategy. It covers the Metropolitan and surrounding Shire Counties to take in the complete West Midlands region.

An example of a scheme we feel brings benefits to both the region and the national network that is to re-open the Camp Hill Line in Birmingham to passenger services between Kings Norton/Tamworth and Bordesley and provide a connection into Birmingham Moor Street via new 'chords' at Bordesley.

This frees up train capacity in New Street Station itself as well as providing more services direct into Birmingham city centre.

Network West Midlands

Network West Midlands clearly identifies the complete network of bus, rail and Metro services that are easily accessible to most people in the West Midlands.

Working closely with partners in the West Midlands Metropolitan Districts and private operators of bus, train and Metro services, we launched Network West Midlands – the new name that connects all public transport in the West Midlands metropolitan area, providing far better passenger information – in 2006. Complete roll-out was achieved in December 2007.

Network West Midlands signage is installed at all bus, train and Metro stops and wherever you see the network 'n' you'll find clear, consistent and up-to-date information aimed at making bus, train and Metro travel easier.

You'll also find new bus shelters at many stops; modern, clean interchanges and bus stations with better facilities and a simpler, straightforward range of tickets. Many rail stations, bus stations, Metro and bus stops now have electronic Real Time Information.

Network West Midlands brings a new range of information – from network identifiers to regularly updated passenger information, timetables and a website – all designed to make public transport easier to use. The benefits will be felt by existing passengers, while also making public transport a more attractive option for non-users.

As the UK's second largest conurbation, the West Midlands creates a massive demand for public transport and Centro and its partners are committed to the creation of a fully integrated public transport network.

Network West Midlands is a vision of the future where bus, rail and Midland Metro connect, with many services on busy routes being on a 'turn up and go' basis.

 

[Mojo]

Yes they do have some role so far as where they provide facilities, but things like staffing are wholly a matter between them and the DfT, unlike in Central Trains days where a payment was made for certain facilities. I'm fairly confident that Centro would have no powers any more to say that they don't want barriers.

 

[Old Timer]

Just as well then because open stations, certainly in the UK, are just an invitation to scrotes, yobs, and ne'er do wells.

Just why the UK is seemingly the only Country in the world afflicted by this specific problem, and why there is such a lack of Political will to sort out these good for nothings, is beyond my feeble mind.

 

[yorkie]

Just as well then because open stations, certainly in the UK, are just an invitation to scrotes, yobs, and ne'er do wells..

That's strange as I think that York station is one of the safest places to be, yet it's fully open.

York station feels less safe when it is barriered on race days though.