Ticket collection from a machine.

[David57]

I would be interested on peoples thoughts on this, and is now a hypothetical question, as I collected my ticket at nearby Rugby.

I bought a ticket online today, for use tomorrow, and chose the 'collect at station' option.

As I happened to pass my local station (Long Buckby) earlier today, I tried to collect the ticket, but the machine was 'out of service'(it was out of use last Monday as well), and the ticket office seems to have been closed down, until they can refurbish the portacabin, and there are notices up at the station saying this.

Now, my point is, I have a booking collection number, but unable to print off at home (due to a printer problem).

I have no way of showing a ticket inspector my tickets, but just have a booking reference written down on a scrap of paper.

Can Guards cross reference the booking number on their ticket issuing machines?

As I say, it's all hypothetical now, but I would be interested on peoples thoughts.

 

[AlterEgo]

In general yes, but not on the machine; they can ring Control or Customer Services to cross reference your booking to ensure you're on the right train and right class of travel.

 

[Gareth Marston]

aTW regularly send round lists of broken/ out or order TVM's so staff should be aware of scenarios like yours.

 

[najaB]

I have no way of showing a ticket inspector my tickets, but just have a booking reference written down on a scrap of paper.

Which isn't a ticket, so a guard who was strictly following the rules would ask you to buy a new ticket. You would be entitled to a refund of the original uncollected ticket though.

As others have said, most guards would give you the benefit of the doubt and tell you to collect at the other end, or ring control to find out if the machine was really out of order.

 

[sheff1]

I once arrived at Sheffield station to find all ticket machines (and the booking office) cordoned off as a broken pipe had caused a flood. People with tickets to collect were advised to collect them at their destination. The XC guard was fully aware of the situation and I did not need to show the reference number I had written down.

As my destination was Rosslare I was tempted to continue ticketless and collect it there as instructed, just for the novelty value, but rather suspected I would be denied access to the boat ! So, as I had plenty of time to change at Cheltenham I collected the ticket there.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Which isn't a ticket, so a guard who was strictly following the rules would ask you to buy a new ticket. You would be entitled to a refund of the original uncollected ticket though.

...and the difference in price between that and the ticket you originally bought.

 

[causton]

aTW regularly send round lists of broken/ out or order TVM's so staff should be aware of scenarios like yours.

Yes, a list is sent out every 2-3 hours throughout the day automatically listing any TVMs with faults. In addition, TyrellCheck/JourneyCheck messages will be sent out if the ticket machines are not in order so conductors and RPIs can easily verify any reports.

 

[soil]

...and the difference in price between that and the ticket you originally bought.

Potentially very bad idea tbh. £5 Advance turns into £100 walk-up fare? And coming out of a debit card or cash payment? No thanks....

Lots of people wouldn't be able to pay the (much higher) walk-up cost.

 

[sheff1]

Lots of people wouldn't be able to pay the (much higher) walk-up cost.

Whether I could, or could not, pay the walk up fare I would certainly not do so if 'the railway' had failed to provide a TVM in working order as promised and there was no open booking office from which to collect the ticket.

 

[miami]

Whether I could, or could not, pay the walk up fare I would certainly not do so if 'the railway' had failed to provide a TVM in working order as promised and there was no open booking office from which to collect the ticket.

Indeed, seems a clear breach of contract. But it's the railway, so no prizes.

As for broken machines, I had this yesterday morning from Nantwich:

Had to exit at Crewe to collect the ticket.

 

[crehld]

Which isn't a ticket, so a guard who was strictly following the rules would ask you to buy a new ticket. You would be entitled to a refund of the original uncollected ticket though.

A most interesting position. Is this really what these mythical and unspecified rules that the guard is required to follow dictate? What if I held an advance between Kidsgrove and London? What if the machine at Kidsgrove, through no fault of my own, wasn't working and I was therefore required to purchase a new ticket in the form of a full price Anytime Return for £290 (being the appropriate ticket at the time of travel). What if, like a great many people, I don't have £290 in cash on me and what if, like a great many people, I don't have £290 laying dormant in the bank account to pay using a debit card? What if guards and other on board railway staff are told to apply different rules by their management which, if applied strictly, would allow the passenger to travel without additional cost upon checking the status of the TVM or the passengers' booking reference with their 'control'?

 

[miami]

A most interesting position. Is this really what these mythical and unspecified rules that the guard is required to follow dictate? What if I held an advance between Kidsgrove and London? What if the machine at Kidsgrove, through no fault of my own, wasn't working and I was therefore required to purchase a new ticket in the form of a full price Anytime Return for £290 (being the appropriate ticket at the time of travel). What if, like a great many people, I don't have £290 in cash on me and what if, like a great many people, I don't have £290 laying dormant in the bank account to pay using a debit card? What if guards and other on board railway staff are told to apply different rules by their management which, if applied strictly, would allow the passenger to travel without additional cost upon checking the status of the TVM or the passengers' booking reference with their 'control'?

I suppose technically you can't travel (as you don't have a ticket). You can sue the company that sold you the ticket for any losses, same as you could if they didn't bother to run the train at all.

 

[Haywain]

A most interesting position. Is this really what these mythical and unspecified rules that the guard is required to follow dictate? What if I held an advance between Kidsgrove and London? What if the machine at Kidsgrove, through no fault of my own, wasn't working and I was therefore required to purchase a new ticket in the form of a full price Anytime Return for £290 (being the appropriate ticket at the time of travel). What if, like a great many people, I don't have £290 in cash on me and what if, like a great many people, I don't have £290 laying dormant in the bank account to pay using a debit card? What if guards and other on board railway staff are told to apply different rules by their management which, if applied strictly, would allow the passenger to travel without additional cost upon checking the status of the TVM or the passengers' booking reference with their 'control'?

Appropriate fare? That would be a single, not a return. And as you'd be on a London Midland train it would be the dedicated fare at £61. But the reality is that you would be 99%certain of being permitted to travel in such circumstances.

 

[Hadders]

Officially you must have the ticket to travel. If I was in that situation I'd take a quick photo of the offending TVM in case I needed to demonstrate it was out of order and board the train.

I'd also make sure I'd pass the attitute test and I'm sure I'd be allowed to travel.

I had something very similar to this during the Olympics in 2012. I was making a journey from Milton Keynes to Manchester, a journey I'd made hundreds of times. I arrived at MKC about 20 minutes prior to departure to be faced with huge queues for the TVMs and ticket office - never seen anything like it before or since, the queue was out of the door. I joined the queue but with 5 minutes to go before departure it was clear I wasn't going to get anywhere near the front of the queue. I took a quick picture of the queue and asked the staff to let me through the barrier.

I joined the train and sought out the guard and explained the situation. She said I really should have the ticket to travel but to make sure I collected it upon arrival at Piccadilly. A short while later she came through the train checking tickets and told me she'd had a message on her Blackberry about the queues at MKC.

Nowadays I'd have to blag my way through the gate line at Piccadilly...

 

[Haywain]

Nowadays I'd have to blag my way through the gate line at Piccadilly...

I disagree, you wouldn't have to "blag" your way through the gateline. You might need to explain the circumstances, but it's more likely that the gateline staff would be aware of the situation the same as the guard was.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Indeed, seems a clear breach of contract. But it's the railway, so no prizes.

As for broken machines, I had this yesterday morning from Nantwich:

Had to exit at Crewe to collect the ticket.

Do we reckon that machine would show up in the circulated list of faulty ones? I'd not bet on it.

 

[najaB]

Do we reckon that machine would show up in the circulated list of faulty ones? I'd not bet on it.

If it was unable to connect to the network, then it probably would.

 

[Wallsendmag]

That looks like a LSM problem, not unusual.


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[221129]

Which isn't a ticket, so a guard who was strictly following the rules would ask you to buy a new ticket. You would be entitled to a refund of the original uncollected ticket though.

Have you got a source for that?

 

[najaB]

Have you got a source for that?

Which part? That a TOD reference isn't a ticket? That's pretty self-evident, but it normally says as much when you book the ticket.

That you can get a refund on an unused ticket? I suppose I should have said "You'd be entitled to a refund of the uncollected ticket, in line with its T&Cs."

 

[221129]

If the ticket machine is broken, I disagree that you can be required to buy a new ticket. Do you have a source that states you have to? None of my colleagues have heard that rule either.

 

[najaB]

If the ticket machine is broken, I disagree that you can be required to buy a new ticket.

That is the important part of that sentence. If the guard has reason to disbelieve that the ticket machine is broken then they don't have to let you travel.

 

[miami]

If the ticket machine is broken, I disagree that you can be required to buy a new ticket. Do you have a source that states you have to? None of my colleagues have heard that rule either.

You must have a valid ticket to travel. If you lack a ticket then you must purchase one at the first opportunity.

The guard, as an authorised person, can allow you to travel without a ticket, but they don't have to let you travel without a ticket. If they demand to see a ticket and you can't present one, then that's a bylaw offence unless you couldn't buy one at the start of your journey. IF you refuse to buy a ticket when the guard demands then that could well be an offence under RORA, certainly a bylaw offence. The functionality of the machine doesn't come into it

Remember railway laws are massively slanted in favour of the railway industry, in a way other laws aren't.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Remember railway laws are massively slanted in favour of the railway industry, in a way other laws aren't.

Well, you could say 'death by dangerous driving' laws are massively slanted in favour of drivers.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Remember railway laws are massively slanted in favour of the railway industry, in a way other laws aren't.

Remember?
Only if we're remembering the many anti-railway posts on this forum, rather than the facts.

 

[Flying Snail]

That is the important part of that sentence. If the guard has reason to disbelieve that the ticket machine is broken then they don't have to let you travel.

Such as if the machine is not broken but simply refuses to issue a TOD ticket.

I mention this as it has happened to me twice, machine apparently working fine, accepts CC and reference but gives a generic "cannot process at this time" type message.

 

[Clip]

A most interesting position. Is this really what these mythical and unspecified rules that the guard is required to follow dictate? What if I held an advance between Kidsgrove and London? What if the machine at Kidsgrove, through no fault of my own, wasn't working and I was therefore required to purchase a new ticket in the form of a full price Anytime Return for £290 (being the appropriate ticket at the time of travel). What if, like a great many people, I don't have £290 in cash on me and what if, like a great many people, I don't have £290 laying dormant in the bank account to pay using a debit card? What if guards and other on board railway staff are told to apply different rules by their management which, if applied strictly, would allow the passenger to travel without additional cost upon checking the status of the TVM or the passengers' booking reference with their 'control'?

I dont understand - what do you mean by mythical rule? We need some clarity on what a senior fares advisor is stating here before we can respond to your post in the correct manner.

Unless you are claiming that you need to be in possession of a valid ticket before travelling being mythical?

 

[David57]

As an aside, I have just had to travel from Long Buckby, (the fourth visit in eight days), and the machine has been out of service every time...

 

[simple simon]

I've just tried to collect a TOD and the machine printed the outward travel portion and then came up with an error message about the seat reservation... also leaving me without my return ticket and seat reservation.

The person at the station window said that his machine said that the tickets had been printed so he could not help me.

I now await a reply to my complaint with Virgin West Coast who sold me the tickets.

I travel in April.

Simon

 

[AlterEgo]

I've just tried to collect a TOD and the machine printed the outward travel portion and then came up with an error message about the seat reservation... also leaving me without my return ticket and seat reservation.

The person at the station window said that his machine said that the tickets had been printed so he could not help me.

I now await a reply to my complaint with Virgin West Coast who sold me the tickets.

I travel in April.

Simon

Why don't you just ring Virgin's After Sales team first, before complaining (which may take weeks for them to respond)?