Through journey?

[simonm]

Sorry if this is an oft answered question but in the next few days I will be returning from Birmingham to London (Marylebone) on the return leg of a Super Off Peak return. The train is due to get into Marylebone at 1234. I am booked on an Advance ticket back to Devon from Paddington at 1406. There is plenty of time to get across (could even walk it). My question is: If the outward portion is delayed, am I covered to get a later train from Paddington? The NRCoC I can't quite fathom. Any offers would be welcomed!

 

[yorkie]

Yes, that's fine. You may use two or more tickets for one journey, and the terms of Advance tickets allow you to take the next train if you are delayed on your journey.

This is covered in our new RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 3 - Ticket Types & Conditions

Here are the relevant parts (bold = my emphasis):-

3.5.2 Valid Combinations of Tickets

Section 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage tells us what combinations of tickets are allowed.
​

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
​

3.5.3 Rights of Split Ticket Users

When using split tickets you are entitled to the same rights as users of through tickets, namely:
​

• If you miss your final train home due to delays on the rail network, any TOC in a position to do so must help to get you home or arrange overnight accommodation for you but you must make sure that you adhere to the minimum connection times on the National Rail Website. We suggest that you obtain and print an itinerary from National Rail Enquiries as this will ensure your connections are valid.
• If your train is delayed you are entitled to compensation for the full journey from the operator who delayed you. Often this uses the Delay Repay scheme, but some older TOCs have their own schemes.
• When using one or more advance tickets, if you are delayed on route you may take the next available service. We recommended that you get your ticket stamped at a booking office to confirm the delay, although this is not strictly necessary.

3.5.5 Splitting Advance Fares

It is often cheaper to split advance tickets. This may be because quotas have run out for long distance journeys but are still available for short distance ones, or because advance tickets to London tend to be cheap (if booked well in advance) and a combination to and from London can be excellent value for long distance cross country journeys.

Remember that you must travel on the booked service. However, if you are delay on route, you can take a later connecting service even on split tickets (see 3.5.3 above).
​

 

[simonm]

Thanks I'll print that out (just in case....)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

An hour and a half should be plenty, but if, for some reason, a delay is sufficient for you to miss the train out of Paddington, you are covered for a later train out of Paddington. This is covered in the Advance FAQs that have been posted on this forum previously, a search should find them.

It should be noted, however, that if, regardless of a delay, you miss the train because you 'had to get something done' between trains, you would not be covered.

 

[simonm]

Thanks for the advice - much appreciated!

 

[island]

I respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleagues.

You have two journeys here from A-B and C-D. If you had a Travelcard or suchlike to get from B-C (LU single or Oyster doesn't count) then I would agree. But these are not, in my opinion, separate parts of one journey.

 

[yorkie]

I understand the following tickets are held:

• Birmingham Stns - London Terminals (Ticket type: OPR)
• London Terminals - <A station in Devon> (Ticket type: Advance)

These clearly combine at London Terminals and is covered in the Advance FAQs which clarifies to staff that they should honour these tickets.

This is no different to a passenger holding, for example, a Halifax - Bradford Stns SDS and a Bradford Stns - Glasgow Cen/Qst Advance.

The fact that Marylebone and Paddington have a tube line connecting them does not in any way diminish the validity of tickets combining at London Terminals, however the minimum connection times do make the assumption that the tube is used. Most out of station interchanges make the assumption that the passenger walks. Yeovil is an example where a taxi is assumed (at the customers' expense) but that does not diminish rights either.

 

[Goatboy]

I understand the following tickets are held:

• Birmingham Stns - London Terminals (Ticket type: OPR)
• London Terminals - <A station in Devon> (Ticket type: Advance)

These clearly combine at London Terminals and is covered in the Advance FAQs which clarifies to staff that they should honour these tickets.

Having just checked a similar ticket I have, it does indeed say 'LONDON TERMINALS' as the origin.

 

[maniacmartin]

Sorry to be a pedant, but I think island has a valid point:

b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or

Neither at Marylebone nor Paddington do you change from one ticket to another. (London Terminals is not a station). As such, they are two seperate journeys. Had one of the tickets been to/from Zone U1* LONDN then the criteria would be matched.

The Advance FAQs quote from The Manual, but as this is not available to the general public and not part of the contract, I personally don't see how it can override what the NRCoC states.

 

[yorkie]

There is no "gap". If you really feel there is a gap, go and ask at the ticket office before departure for an over-distance excess to "Zone U1 London". But, really, there is no need as you can pay for the LU portion of the journey separately (though if not using Oyster it is cheaper to get the Zone U1 ticket).

You do change from one ticket to another at Marylebone/Paddington, the fact you have to get between them is no difference, it's a valid interchange. Some stations, such as Wigan Wallgate to Wigan North Western involve a walk that is shorter than the walk within some stations (such as Manchester Piccadilly or Glasgow Central). No-one claims you need a Manchester Stns - Manchester Stns to do the long walk from Platform 14 to Platform 1, do they? So, clearly, no London Terminals - London Terminals ticket is required in this instance either. All that is required is a LU single (or use of Oyster PAYG).

If any member of FGW staff was to go against the instructions in The Manual and deny travel to the OP if a delay occurred causing the booked train to be missed, then I am absolutely certain that it would be dealt with robustly and swiftly by the rail industry. I would help the OP in any way I could. So I would not in any way have any worries about this connection and I can only apologise that there is confusion in this thread. I had thought that we were over all this months ago.

 

[island]

I think we settled the discussion where there were National Rail tickets covering the entire journey, but this is a different situation. Now I admit that if hairyhandedfool and yorkie agree on a subject it is likely to be significant, but I remain of the belief that this journey is not protected because the tickets held have a gap in the middle. I agree that if the ticket were to Zone U1* Londn then there could be no problem.

The suggestion about walking distances within a station being long is, with due respect, a red herring.

 

[yorkie]

But the tickets join at London Terminals. Whether it happens to be one platform away, several platforms away, or involves walking over the street, what matters is that the tickets cover the whole journey. Which they do.

We know that passengers are covered because the Advance Fares FAQ says they are.

FGW have to recognise the instructions given in The Manual, as a member of ATOC. And they have to be a member of ATOC in order to meet their franchise commitments. I do not think that FGW would try to avoid compliance with the instructions given in The Manual, and if they did and a dispute resulted, I would be confident of resolving it in the OPs favour.

 

[34D]

I think we settled the discussion where there were National Rail tickets covering the entire journey, but this is a different situation. Now I admit that if hairyhandedfool and yorkie agree on a subject it is likely to be significant, but I remain of the belief that this journey is not protected because the tickets held have a gap in the middle. I agree that if the ticket were to Zone U1* Londn then there could be no problem.

The suggestion about walking distances within a station being long is, with due respect, a red herring.

We had this debate several months ago. I advanced the same point of view as island has, which I agree with.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So if I had a ticket to Kings Cross and an Advance ticket from St Pancras, I'd need to have an Underground ticket to get across the road just in case there are delays? Should I get that before or after arriving in the capital? What ticket should I ask for? A single from Kings Cross to St Pancras? Should a clerk offer me a ticket to St Pancras as part of the first ticket?

And what of a ticket to Waterloo East and an Advance from Waterloo? Same story?

And what of tickets to and from Wigan, Manchester, Southend, Yeovil, Glasgow and Bradford (amongst others)? Does not breaking my journey at any point during my trip count for anything?

 

[34D]

So if I had a ticket to Kings Cross and an Advance ticket from St Pancras, I'd need to have an Underground ticket to get across the road just in case there are delays? Should I get that before or after arriving in the capital? What ticket should I ask for? A single from Kings Cross to St Pancras? Should a clerk offer me a ticket to St Pancras as part of the first ticket?

And what of a ticket to Waterloo East and an Advance from Waterloo? Same story?

And what of tickets to and from Wigan, Manchester, Southend, Yeovil, Glasgow and Bradford (amongst others)? Does not breaking my journey at any point during my trip count for anything?

I think Kings Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo/Waterloo East wouldn't be counted as separate stations.

 

[Deerfold]

I think Kings Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo/Waterloo East wouldn't be counted as separate stations.

Although they are. The only reason I can think of for not counting them as seperate is that they're all LONDON TERMINALS.

If catching the Jubilee line, Southwark is announced as the station to change at for trains from Waterloo East.

 

[jb]

How late does the first train need to be?

Put another way, is there a MCT between Marylebone and Paddington?

 

[sheff1]

I think Kings Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo/Waterloo East wouldn't be counted as separate stations.

Wouldn't be counted by whom ?

If KX/SP aren't 'separate' then Wigan Wallgate & North Western wouldn't be either. In both cases the two clearly distinct stations are separated by a public road.

 

[LexyBoy]

Before getting too hypothetical and digging into the precise wording of the rules, I'd point out that if you are delayed and miss your train, the absolute most likely scenario is either that staff will take your word for it, or check up on reported incidents/TRUST/whatever and confirm that you were indeed delayed. I a dispute over whether you held a valid Tube ticket before arriving or not is simply not going to happen. FGW at Paddington are generally good in my experience, and have had no issue with authorising later travel due to train/tube delays. I would advise keeping hold of any tickets if you are delayed though.

As regards walking connexions, STP/KGX and WAE/WAT both have walks as the suggested transfer in journey planners. Marylebone to Paddington does not, and the recognised route is by Tube, which requires a ticket. I think the examples in the Advance fares FAQ were chosen deliberately to include Tube travel - being either Travelcards or U12 tickets.

To revisit old territory, take a Reading (RDG) - Slade Green (SGR) Route: London Not Und ticket. This is intended to be used RDG-WAT-WAE-SGR. Mapped routes include LONDON, so surely RDG-PAD-WAE-SGR should be permitted - both RDG-PAD and WAE-SGR are on mapped routes between London and the respective stations, and PAD and WAE are both London group stations, so where's the gap?

Second (slightly silly) example: say I hold a Newbury-Reading Stns CDR and Reading-Swansea Advance. I choose to take the train from Newbury to Reading West. How much time do I have to leave to transfer between stations to ensure I'm covered in the event of delays on my first train? (I couldn't think stations grouped for ticketing purposes which don't have a recognised connexion of some sort between them).

 

[calc7]

Before getting too hypothetical and digging into the precise wording of the rules, I'd point out that if you are delayed and miss your train, the absolute most likely scenario is either that staff will take your word for it, or check up on reported incidents/TRUST/whatever and confirm that you were indeed delayed.

I agree - I have missed trains on split and non-split Advance tickets before and never once had my integrity questioned - the guard has simply believed me and moved on.

I would less fancy one's chances of a hassle-free journey following an itinerary that leads into delayed use of an Off-Peak ticket in Peak time, with particular TOCs. For instance, an Advance from Bristol to Zone U1* LONDN then a London-Sheffield via Chesterfield Super Off-Peak Return valid on the 1455 from St Pancras. Delay into Paddington means you miss that train (even though leaving the valid connection time) - I reckon EMT would provide a fair amount of grief in allowing travel on the 1555.

 

[yorkie]

I think Kings Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo/Waterloo East wouldn't be counted as separate stations.

But who? We know that the rail industry will honour tickets as we have seen the Advance Fares FAQs in The Manual. So who is going to be going against that? If any rail staff go against that then they simply need reminding that they are part of ATOC and they must adhere to the procedures described in The Manual (unless they are being more generous to customers than the minimum required, of course).

Is this all 'theoretical' and if so how does this help the OP? The OP wants to know if he's covered. We know he is covered, because although the NRCoC may not be totally clear about this, we've see the instructions in The Manual that clarify that it is acceptable to have tickets that join at London Terminals.

I have heard many reports of FGW adhering to the instructions in The Manual to allow passengers on later trains, even going back before it was clarified. I do not think there is any prospect of FGW refusing to adhere to them, and in the highly unlikely event that they did, a few contacts would put that right quickly I am sure.

 

[Mojo]

Put another way, is there a MCT between Marylebone and Paddington?

What does MCT mean?

 

[island]

Minimum connection time, I suspect.

I agree with LexyBoy that I expect there would not be any substantial issues in getting a ticket endorsed in practice.

 

[jb]

Minimum connection time, I suspect.

Yes indeed. Sorry, thought the acronym was standard here, but now I realise it is so on another forum (regarding another form of transport).

I agree with LexyBoy that I expect there would not be any substantial issues in getting a ticket endorsed in practice.

At the risk of being overly hypothetical, it seems clear to me that if the OP's inbound train were two (or five, or ten) minutes late then he would not really have a leg to stand on (either theoretically or in practice) trying to use his outbound ticket on a later-than-booked train.

There's a line somewhere (theoretically, and in practice) and I was just wondering where.

 

[Mojo]

As regards walking connexions, STP/KGX and WAE/WAT both have walks as the suggested transfer in journey planners. Marylebone to Paddington does not, and the recognised route is by Tube, which requires a ticket.

Some journey planners will occasionally recommend walking on certain tickets. A journey I regularly do, theTrainline engines will tell me to walk from Fenchurch Street to Liverpool Street.

For some longer journeys, theTrainline engines will advise you to undertake a mysterious "Transfer" (whatever that means) when the Underground is not running.

 

[noblergt]

Would the OP still be covered if the delay occurred on the tube itself? I seem to remember reading somewhere that if your journey originated in London then you wouldn't be covered by a tube delay unless you bought a ticket specifically from Zone U1* rather than using a Oyster PAYG fare (though I'm not 100% certain on this)

 

[Paul Kelly]

If you want to see where the journey planners are getting these connections from, I am working on a new website for showing that sort of journey planning information that the booking engines use. It is not finished yet (shows arrival and departure boards for stations but can't yet show an individual train with all its calling points etc.), but it's quite useful for looking at minimum connection times and such.

E.g. here are all the connections for Liverpool Street: http://brtimes.com/#board?stn=LST&show=info

Fenchurch Street is shown as a 4 minute walk away - add to that the minimum connection times for Liverpool Street (15 min) plus Fenchurch Street (7 min) and you get the 26 minutes quoted by the journey planner.

 

[LexyBoy]

Would the OP still be covered if the delay occurred on the tube itself? I seem to remember reading somewhere that if your journey originated in London then you wouldn't be covered by a tube delay unless you bought a ticket specifically from Zone U1* rather than using a Oyster PAYG fare (though I'm not 100% certain on this)

If the journey begins on the Tube with a ticket which does not include rail then it's not covered:

Not included for the avoidance of doubt, are:
Non train company travel on separate tickets, e.g. tickets that begin on bus-only, tube-only, ferry-only or metro-only tickets.

Thus if you want to begin with a Tube journey it's a good idea to get a U1* ticket or use a Travelcard. If you're delayed during Tube transfer from an earlier rail leg (using PAYG or other ticket) then you're covered.

 

[Mojo]

If you want to see where the journey planners are getting these connections from, I am working on a new website for showing that sort of journey planning information that the booking engines use. It is not finished yet (shows arrival and departure boards for stations but can't yet show an individual train with all its calling points etc.), but it's quite useful for looking at minimum connection times and such.

E.g. here are all the connections for Liverpool Street: http://brtimes.com/#board?stn=LST&show=info

Fenchurch Street is shown as a 4 minute walk away - add to that the minimum connection times for Liverpool Street (15 min) plus Fenchurch Street (7 min) and you get the 26 minutes quoted by the journey planner.

Wow this is useful; thank you; as I was about to ask whether anyone had the list of what Jplanners will count as a walk.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think Kings Cross/St Pancras and Waterloo/Waterloo East wouldn't be counted as separate stations.

Why? You have to leave one station to reach the other, it is no different to other London Terminal stations