Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think they will manage it, by switching eventually to smart ticketing and at the same time introducing compostage, whereby a ticket would be valid only if stamped/touched in at a station within its validity.
Neil
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Thoughts on smart card ticketing
- Thread starter Bletchleyite
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I think they will manage it, by switching eventually to smart ticketing and at the same time introducing compostage, whereby a ticket would be valid only if stamped/touched in at a station within its validity.
Neil
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R
RailUK Forums
I've pointed this out before. It's usually 'dismissed'.
Smartcards will probably lead to the massive shake up in ticketing that is inevitable, even if it will mean many winners and losers. Losers as in those who know how to get better fares, and can be very ingenius. Winners in that for the first time, you might be able to get fairer pricing with more flexibility - i.e. being charged based on the journey you did, not what you planned, changing your mind and going to another station (stopping short, or deciding you need to travel further) etc.
It will likely be a PAYG system combined with loading on tickets, and working together so you'll never have the 'wrong' ticket as you can pay as you go.
This might well mean validators on trains to identify exactly how you travelled, not just where you travelled.
I'd like to see options to be able to upgrade to first class, or perhaps even redeem points towards food/drink (which will help keep buffets/trolleys going) as well as longer term loyalty discounts that might mean doing away with railcards.
Of course it's up to the industry to decide if and when to do this, but I don't think much will happen until the DfT forces it to happen.
It will be a very interesting time for forums like this, as you can just imagine the varying opinions for and against.
Howardh
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If you had an *Oyster Card* type of thing for the rail, and you sat in First Class, how would anyone know whether you had paid for that? It would appear you would need a separate ticket for First for the conductor to read!
That's a limitation of Oyster certainly. I'd expect that all other ITSO compliant cards being introduced would have some system to allow for this.
In addition to the occasional upgrade to first class, I'd like to be able to go to a TVM and preset a start/end station on my Oyster without tapping in/out. Example; paper ticket from Hatfield to Tottenham Hale, Oyster to Cheshunt.
Occasionally I might actually get a Travelcard from Hatfield and go to Cheshunt (and back). I then have no choice but to buy a boundary extension on paper as I can't tap in or out when continuing on the train and switching from Oyster to paper and vice versa.
Combining paper and Oyster works out cheaper for me, so that's another way to save money but not something everyone can benefit from at all times.
In addition to the occasional upgrade to first class, I'd like to be able to go to a TVM and preset a start/end station on my Oyster without tapping in/out. Example; paper ticket from Hatfield to Tottenham Hale, Oyster to Cheshunt.
Occasionally I might actually get a Travelcard from Hatfield and go to Cheshunt (and back). I then have no choice but to buy a boundary extension on paper as I can't tap in or out when continuing on the train and switching from Oyster to paper and vice versa.
Combining paper and Oyster works out cheaper for me, so that's another way to save money but not something everyone can benefit from at all times.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
In the Netherlands you choose whether your OV-Chipkaart is for First or Second. I *think* you can also put a flag on it for one journey at a ticket machine, but might be wrong on the latter point.
Neil
If it was PAYG could stick a tap in plate in the train by the door, allowing you to upgrade on the fly.
Could also potentially be used to auto-excess season tickets.
Add in some code that flags of you tapped 2-3 stops after you got on, so a CCTV guy can review of you were trying to chance it and only tapped when you saw the ticket man, and Roberta's your aunty.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There's an easier solution to that, the guard/RPI deactivates the touch-in plate/on board ticket machine on boarding so you can't see him and touch in. That's how it works on most European tram systems and the likes.
Or you just keep it off the train, like NS, and you upgrade before boarding. Perhaps on non-DOO trains the guard could have the ability to take the first class flag off if there was no space.
Neil
PermitToTravel
Established Member
You'd have to either only allow people to upgrade for the whole journey covered by their ticket; or otherwise require them to touch in and out whilst on the train.
That is correct. Let's not however copy the principle of needing twenty quid on your card to start a rail journey please.
I don't see a need to touch out on the train. We know which train you upgraded to first class on, and can assume from there that you left FC when you disembarked.
You might want to only upgrade to first during the busy part of a journey, and then downgrade again (to save money) as Standard emptied out.
GarethJohn
Member
If you touch on the train and it is late perhaps the company can then reimburse your card.
In Hong Kong, there are First Class validators on the platform next to where the First Class carriage stops. There are also validators on board the train next to the internal doors into First Class, and more frequent checks of people's Octopus (Oyster) card that are sitting in First.
It is widely believed that you need 20 euros on the card, but you actually only need 16 euros (£11.71). Yes, the deposit is 20 euros, but you are allowed to go into debit by 4 euros.
But if you have a railcard loaded onto it, which most regular users would, not only do you get the card for free, the minimum balance required is only 6 euros, as the deposit is then 10 euros.
Andrew1395
Member
The ultimate will be when you use your bank card or mobile to touch in. Not at the station but on the train! You only need gates at termini stations, with on train touch in. This will be automated, with each doorway and seat recognising a valid card. punishment for unauthorised travel will be extremely severe. If caught by random on train and station checks, a micro chip will be injected into your wrist, this will record and bill your travel.
I just applied to be part of a trial with AGA that will let me use a brand new mobile app to travel, where my journey (or journeys) get calculated and billed at the end of the day. No chance of a PF for not having a ticket as you'll be charged in arrears, and can therefore travel however you want and change your mind at will - and it will work from London to Cambridge.
It only works with selected mobiles, so I assume it's using NFC and will work something like Oyster. Hopefully I'll find out soon, as I'm intrigued.
I have to assume that once it goes live, you'll need to have a level of credit on your account that is debited or I can see loads of potential problems!
It only works with selected mobiles, so I assume it's using NFC and will work something like Oyster. Hopefully I'll find out soon, as I'm intrigued.
I have to assume that once it goes live, you'll need to have a level of credit on your account that is debited or I can see loads of potential problems!
Yes, I can definitely see that happening. But, I can only hope that we might see staff moved to the concourses and platforms, keeping stations staffed whenever trains run - and being on hand with tablets to help passengers.
I think there are many benefits of keeping staff at stations and personally consider it a no-brainer.
I think there are many benefits of keeping staff at stations and personally consider it a no-brainer.
Skimpot flyer
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If a national Oyster-like system were installed, and the entire GN route were to have readers fitted, a thought occurred to me.
Would people wanting to go from, say Finsbury Park to Welham Green, then be able to get a semi-fast train to Hatfield, and travel back one stop? As far as I understand it, you cannot buy a paper ticket offering 'via Hatfield' for a Finsbury Park to Welham Green journey. ("No fares have been found for your selected journey. Please try adjusting your dates and times for travel")
If attempting to travel this way, and an RPI happened to inspect your ticket between Potters Bar and Hatfield, you would clearly be about to travel beyond the validity of your ticket, and presumably incurring the risk of a Penalty Fare?
With a 'touch in, touch out' system, wouldn't such journeys then be possible, legitimately? So long as you DID touch in and out, you would be charged the FPK-WMG fare, as the system would not know how you got between those two stations.
There are probably better examples, where being able to do a 'back one stop' journey, would save a passenger a lot of time.
Would people wanting to go from, say Finsbury Park to Welham Green, then be able to get a semi-fast train to Hatfield, and travel back one stop? As far as I understand it, you cannot buy a paper ticket offering 'via Hatfield' for a Finsbury Park to Welham Green journey. ("No fares have been found for your selected journey. Please try adjusting your dates and times for travel")
If attempting to travel this way, and an RPI happened to inspect your ticket between Potters Bar and Hatfield, you would clearly be about to travel beyond the validity of your ticket, and presumably incurring the risk of a Penalty Fare?
With a 'touch in, touch out' system, wouldn't such journeys then be possible, legitimately? So long as you DID touch in and out, you would be charged the FPK-WMG fare, as the system would not know how you got between those two stations.
There are probably better examples, where being able to do a 'back one stop' journey, would save a passenger a lot of time.
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I'm not familiar with that station, but do you have to leave the platform and switch to a different platform to change direction (northbound vs southbound).
If you do, then put a required validator at the platform entrance and catch the double back.
If the platform runs in both directions, then I agree it is much trickier.
A mobile phone app with NFC could presumably track location, but that seems intrusive from a privacy perspective.
On train validation maybe the only answer...
I agree with previous poster who suggested that smart card ticketing might require changes in the underlying system to make it work best.
If you still have on board inspection, then you can rule that you must be travelling away from your touch in location. That's how it works in the Netherlands. There are a few exceptions where you are allowed to double back.
What do people think of http://www.abelliogreateranglia.co.uk/multipass-trial (with more info http://multipass.co.uk/public/conditions.html and http://multipass.co.uk/public/faq.html).
Seems to work by requiring your phone to have bluetooth switched on for your entire journey, which it presumably uses to detect which stations you've travelled through, and then you have to upload the data from your phone to their servers daily for it to charge you.
It's not clear to me how it works if you're using a paper ticket to travel from somewhere within the area to somewhere not in the area, unless you remember to turn bluetooth off for those journeys, so that it doesn't charge you twice for the bit of the journey in the area it covers?
Not valid with a Network Railcard (student/family/senior only), which seems a major omission for the area it's valid in.
And also seemingly not able to combine journeys to London with a travelcard, which is normally the cheapest way of getting around London from places like Cambridge on the line that it's valid for.
Seems to work by requiring your phone to have bluetooth switched on for your entire journey, which it presumably uses to detect which stations you've travelled through, and then you have to upload the data from your phone to their servers daily for it to charge you.
It's not clear to me how it works if you're using a paper ticket to travel from somewhere within the area to somewhere not in the area, unless you remember to turn bluetooth off for those journeys, so that it doesn't charge you twice for the bit of the journey in the area it covers?
Not valid with a Network Railcard (student/family/senior only), which seems a major omission for the area it's valid in.
And also seemingly not able to combine journeys to London with a travelcard, which is normally the cheapest way of getting around London from places like Cambridge on the line that it's valid for.
Oh, sorry, so you did. I'm not sure how I missed that first time around!
Also, since my first post about it sounded a bit negative, I'll try and say something a bit more positive about it: it claims to be able to handle break of journey - so if you travel from A to B and then later do B to C, it will charge you for an A to C ticket if that's cheaper than two separate tickets.
Though there's no indication of what you have to do at B, or how long you have to wait there, if you *want* to split tickets there whilst on a through journey, because it's cheaper than a through ticket!
Also, since my first post about it sounded a bit negative, I'll try and say something a bit more positive about it: it claims to be able to handle break of journey - so if you travel from A to B and then later do B to C, it will charge you for an A to C ticket if that's cheaper than two separate tickets.
Though there's no indication of what you have to do at B, or how long you have to wait there, if you *want* to split tickets there whilst on a through journey, because it's cheaper than a through ticket!
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It also shows that you can just walk out if there's not a gate (well show it to staff, if there any) so that's a bit odd too. How will it know what to charge in such cases?
Perhaps it IS going to use GPS data. If it does, I wouldn't be against the idea if it means paying the right/best fare, but it will get massive negative press from conspiracy theorists.
Perhaps it IS going to use GPS data. If it does, I wouldn't be against the idea if it means paying the right/best fare, but it will get massive negative press from conspiracy theorists.
It also doesn't work the barriers at barriered stations: you have to show your phone with the app running to the person manning the barriers to be let through.
I assumed that because bluetooth must be enabled on the phone, they'll be installing bluetooth transmitters in every station, which will let the app know where you've been. Hence my other question about how it knows if you're using some other ticket for part of one particular journey and don't need to be charged again?
Skimpot flyer
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What is the situation with Oyster, on sections of route served by both Tube and National Rail trains (e.g West Ham to Upminster) ?
Is someone touching in at West Ham, and touching out at Upminster Bridge, permitted to travel by c2c train to Upminster, and back one stop? I'd imagine the NRCoC forbid this, but what about Oyster terms and conditions? If Oyster does not have similar double-back-forbidden terms, anyone getting an RPI reading their Oyster would just claim to have been on the District Line, missed their stop, and was travelling back.
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