Third Rail - Safety on Track?

[neil85]

I've recently been sponsored by a rail company to become a trackworker, but as a born worrier, the third rail is putting me off. What safety measures are put in place when you're working near one, as we've not got that far on the course yet, all i know is, it can be live and you gotta step over it! but I'm paranoid I'm gonna slip one time and be brown bread. Do you think it's a stupid reason not to pursue the opportunity?

 

[Horizon22]

You'll be giving the relevant training and equipment to ensure this doesn't happen. I can understand the fear and to be fair it's quite healthy to be afraid; hopefully that will ensure you are extra cautious and treat the third rail and its associated 750V with the respect it deserves.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

I’ll be completely honest, regarding the training to that is, step ballast to ballast to avoid slips, don’t cross at a set of points and if you need to cross over try do it where there is a gap in the third rail. If there is no gap the only thing to do is step over it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2022 ==

I’ll be completely honest, regarding the training to that is, step ballast to ballast to avoid slips, don’t cross at a set of points and if you need to cross over try do it where there is a gap in the third rail. If there is no gap the only thing to do is step over it

I had to get out my cab the other day and walk on the track literally a foot away from the live rail so have to just be extra cautious when around it

 

[Gloster]

There was a previous thread on this: How dangerous is the third rail? It was started in October 2020 by someone with the same concern. My opinion: Treat the third rail with respect, but not fear.

(Sorry, I can’t do a link.)

 

[zwk500]

There was a previous thread on this: How dangerous is the third rail? It was started in October 2020 by someone with the same concern. My opinion: Treat the third rail with respect, but not fear.

(Sorry, I can’t do a link.)

How dangerous is the third rail?

I have recently started work as a PTS trackman but I'm finding that my fear of the third rail is hindering me... Obviously in training, I was taught to treat it as live and dangerous at all times and any contact with it could be fatal. Coupled with the fear that was put into me as a child...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Given NR doesn't want people on track when trains are running anymore your exposure to live conductor rails will be considerably reduced in the role you seek. For 38 years i worked trackside on SR and as other posters say treat it as live all the time and always look at where your crossing it ie ballast to ballast.

 

[Trog]

Don't worry about it treat it with a degree of respect, being careful with metallic tools and not touching the con-rail and any earthed object at the same time with your bare skin and you will be fine.

Follow the basic safety rules about how to step over the live rail so you do not fall on to it, and remember to be extra careful in wet weather, as you are both more likely to slip and wet clothes and boots do not provide the same insulation protection as dry. I think I read somewhere that heath and safety have banned working close to live conductor rail equipment. So the days of cleaning the pots with a soapy rag between trains are well and truly history.

 

[Turtle]

Don't worry about it treat it with a degree of respect, being careful with metallic tools and not touching the con-rail and any earthed object at the same time with your bare skin and you will be fine.

Follow the basic safety rules about how to step over the live rail so you do not fall on to it, and remember to be extra careful in wet weather, as you are both more likely to slip and wet clothes and boots do not provide the same insulation protection as dry. I think I read somewhere that heath and safety have banned working close to live conductor rail equipment. So the days of cleaning the pots with a soapy rag between trains are well and truly history.

Your last sentence is truly alarming. So that really happened? Thank heaven for modern 'elf & safety!

 

[Trog]

Probably towards the dodgy end of old time P-Way work, but safe enough if you were wearing the proper 1000 volt gauntlets, and kneeling on a rubber mat.

Doing that saved electricity by helping to reduce leakage through the film of dirt and brake dust that builds up on the surface of the pots over time.

 

[The One]

I always thought you work near third rail during a isolation or they use what I can only describe as kick boards that go over the third rail I’m sure if wrong I will be corrected by more experience track workers

 

[PF19]

I always thought you work near third rail during a isolation or they use what I can only describe as kick boards that go over the third rail I’m sure if wrong I will be corrected by more experience track workers

This will depend on what you are doing & more importantly, how closely you are working to the third rail...and who you actually work for and their instructions

Example: A track patroller wouldn't request an isolation or use kickboards, that would be unpracticable but anything more involved will then follow laid out procedures

Where your company instructions allow work to be carried out with the CRE live and you or anything you are holding will be nearer than 300 mm (1 foot) to live CRE you must, if possible, place a conductor rail shield over the conductor rail before you carry out the activity.

During possessions, the CRE might be isolated and even if it is and you are signed in with the relevant "Authorised Person" and received the "Conductor Rail Permit" then there are still "floaters", sections of the CRE that remain always-live but these will be pointed out by your COSS

If you want to read the Handbook, it is on the RSSB Website: HB17-Issue 4
It is however a little vague, as a lot of it is precursored by:

You carry out the precautions in the method statement or relevant company instruction.

 

[66701GBRF]

Given NR doesn't want people on track when trains are running anymore your exposure to live conductor rails will be considerably reduced in the role you seek. For 38 years i worked trackside on SR and as other posters say treat it as live all the time and always look at where your crossing it ie ballast to ballast.

Trains might not be running but that doesn't mean the 3rd rail is off!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Trains might not be running but that doesn't mean the 3rd rail is off!

As i say treat it as live all the time perhaps my point of clarity to the OP is that most of the time these days they would be working under possession conditions with the third rail isolated and their COSS in possession of a conductor rail permit.

 

[E27007]

The December 2022 DC Rulebook Module extends earlier versions with the instruction to keep yourself 5 feet or more from the live rail.
Incidents of death by electrocution of the 3rd rail are not common, if juiced up you will very likely survive though you may need skin grafts for burns.
It is the 25kV overhead which is the 99.9999% killer, a recent incident was at night a group of workers walked underneath the broken end of the contact wire which was hanging down, the workers were not aware of the broken end, they were very lucky not to be electrocuted.

 

[Seejwalker]

I've recently been sponsored by a rail company to become a trackworker, but as a born worrier, the third rail is putting me off. What safety measures are put in place when you're working near one, as we've not got that far on the course yet, all i know is, it can be live and you gotta step over it! but I'm paranoid I'm gonna slip one time and be brown bread. Do you think it's a stupid reason not to pursue the opportunity?

Fear in any role that is dangerous can be healthy, as it means you have respect for the dangers within that role.
However needlessly over worrying isn’t healthy and that’s honestly something you have to work on.

I’m a signaller and have seen people freeze in certain situations that really require them be operating at their best.

If you feel your fear is beyond that of simply knowing and respecting the dangers of your new role. Then perhaps you might need to consider if it’s actually suited to you.

 

[43066]

the third rail is putting me off.

To echo the advice I was given: just make sure you don’t touch it when it’s live, then there will be nothing to worry about.

 

[StretfordEnd96]

I always thought you work near third rail during a isolation or they use what I can only describe as kick boards that go over the third rail I’m sure if wrong I will be corrected by more experience track workers

I echo this. I've never really though about it in detail - I'm no expert but I just automatically assumed with how heath and safety is these days and the various risk assessments etc having to be taken out by law - I just assumed that when rail workers were working right near a live rail it'd have to be powered down. (Yes I know this would stop trains but aren't these things often done overnight?) Certainly major works anyway.

I'm clearly incorrect though judging by the nature of the replies in this thread.

 

[43066]

As i say treat it as live all the time perhaps my point of clarity to the OP is that most of the time these days they would be working under possession conditions with the third rail isolated and their COSS in possession of a conductor rail permit.

I’ve seen people in possessions sitting on the juice rail having a smoke! Admittedly that is a situation where they knew it would (or should!) be isolated, but it wouldn’t be my choice of a place to sit during a break. It presumably only takes one wrong switch in the ECO and they’d suddenly find themselves sitting on old sparky…

I know overhead line sections being worked on are physically isolated and padlocked - not sure if anything similar happens for the third rail.

 

[zwk500]

I echo this. I've never really though about it in detail - I'm no expert but I just automatically assumed with how heath and safety is these days and the various risk assessments etc having to be taken out by law - I just assumed that when rail workers were working right near a live rail it'd have to be powered down. (Yes I know this would stop trains but aren't these things often done overnight?) Certainly major works anyway.

I'm clearly incorrect though judging by the nature of the replies in this thread.

I believe it is preferred to isolate it wherever possible but sometimes it isn't.

 

[Seejwalker]

I’ve seen people in possessions sitting on the juice rail having a smoke! Admittedly that is a situation where they knew it would (or should!) be isolated, but it wouldn’t be my choice of a place to sit during a break. It presumably only takes one wrong switch in the ECO and they’d suddenly find themselves sitting on old sparky…

I know overhead line sections being worked on are physically isolated and padlocked - not sure if anything similar happens for the third rail.

There’s two ECOs on duty, I believe everything is verified by the other before it happens.

 

[Skoodle]

I walk through my depot where the AWR is less than a foot from a live conductor rail. I respect it, but at no times have I ever feared it to the point I'm questioning my employment.

 

[Snow1964]

I echo this. I've never really though about it in detail - I'm no expert but I just automatically assumed with how heath and safety is these days and the various risk assessments etc having to be taken out by law - I just assumed that when rail workers were working right near a live rail it'd have to be powered down. (Yes I know this would stop trains but aren't these things often done overnight?) Certainly major works anyway.

I'm clearly incorrect though judging by the nature of the replies in this thread.

Nearly all Health and Safety is policy, often written by administrators and lawyers rather than the people on the ground applying it. Only a negligible amount is actually written newly from scratch. Most is just a copy of old policies, updated either as a result of an incident or because a set calendar interval from previous review has been reached.

Regarding the third rail, most units have multiple pick up shoes, which are linked, and when they pass through junctions these live shoes dangle just a few cm above running rails. If current doesn’t usually jump across that between bare metal surfaces, shows the low likelihood of it jumping onto someone’s insulated foot ware at same distance.

But clearly a healthy respect for potential danger is better than blasé careless behaviour

 

[AndrewE]

Nearly all Health and Safety is policy, often written by administrators and lawyers. Only a negligible amount is actually written from scratch. Most is just a copy of old policies, updated either as a result of an incident or because a set calendar interval from previous review has been reached.

I don't know where that assertion comes from (which is my mildest ever reposte.) I would have said that most H&S policy has been brought forward from earlier employer policies (quite properly the responsible party with the obligation to have it in place,) which will themselves have been written in the light of incidents and the need to prevent recurrences - and will have been produced in consultation with (or even just "by") comittees which would have included Safety Reps. Almost none of the inherited stuff will be arse-covering paperwork.

Regarding the third rail, most units have multiple pick up shoes, which are linked, and when they pass through junctions these live shoes dangle just a few cm above running rails. If current doesn’t usually jump across that between bare metal surfaces, shows the likelihood of it jumping onto someone’s insulated foot wear.

Care to make this clearer? The running rails are the earth return so are you saying they could pick up a dangerous voltage? Or that they are not likely to present a risk?

But clearly a healthy respect for potential danger is better than blasé careless behaviour

Familiarity breeds contempt... hence the need for H&S refreshers, "learning" briefings being issued on a nationwide basis, etc.

 

[D365]

To echo the advice I was given: just make sure you don’t touch it when it’s live, then there will be nothing to worry about.

Treat all rails as live at all times.

I know overhead line sections being worked on are physically isolated and padlocked - not sure if anything similar happens for the third rail.

As far as I understand, yes. (I was briefly involved in Remote Securing at Network Rail but this still involves interlocking)

 

[Elecman]

I don't know where that assertion comes from (which is my mildest ever reposte.) I would have said that most H&S policy has been brought forward from earlier employer policies (quite properly the responsible party with the obligation to have it in place,) which will themselves have been written in the light of incidents and the need to prevent recurrences - and will have been produced in consultation with (or even just "by") comittees which would have included Safety Reps. Almost none of the inherited stuff will be arse-covering paperwork.

Care to make this clearer? The running rails are the earth return so are you saying they could pick up a dangerous voltage? Or that they are not likely to present a risk?

On AC lines the running rails are the earth return but unless there is a total fairly pure of multiple bonding points they will always be effectively at a safe voltage to Mother Earth.

om DC Lines they are the Hegative return conductors but again unless the return bonds at the substations are missing they will also always be at a safe voltage.

 

[contrex]

Regarding the third rail, most units have multiple pick up shoes, which are linked, and when they pass through junctions these live shoes dangle just a few cm above running rails. If current doesn’t usually jump across that between bare metal surfaces, shows the likelihood of it jumping onto someone’s insulated foot ware.

Breakdown voltage in dry air at sea level is around 30,000 volts per centimetre, which means for 750 volts, the distance would be around a quarter of a millimetre if my sums are right. I have read about London Underground staff wearing 'shunter's shoes' with thick insulating soles and also Tyvek trousers (Tyvek is a non-conducting plastic material that is very difficult to tear or cut). Of course even if you don't touch the rail you could make a short by dropping something metal and the flash would be dangerous. There is a well known fatal case of a staff member in shorts and tee shirt going between wagons and touching the juice rail momentarily with a leg and a wagon buffer with a bare arm. There was, sadly, a probable reason for lack of caution.

 

[66701GBRF]

There is a well known fatal case of a staff member in shorts and tee shirt going between wagons and touching the juice rail momentarily with a leg and a wagon buffer with a bare arm. There was, sadly, a probable reason for lack of caution.

Was that the incident at Deal?

 

[Vespa]

As we sometimes say in the army " fear keeps you sharp" don't let the fear control you.

 

[Newboysouth]

Breakdown voltage in dry air at sea level is around 30,000 volts per centimetre, which means for 750 volts, the distance would be around a quarter of a millimetre if my sums are right. I have read about London Underground staff wearing 'shunter's shoes' with thick insulating soles and also Tyvek trousers (Tyvek is a non-conducting plastic material that is very difficult to tear or cut). Of course even if you don't touch the rail you could make a short by dropping something metal and the flash would be dangerous. There is a well known fatal case of a staff member in shorts and tee shirt going between wagons and touching the juice rail momentarily with a leg and a wagon buffer with a bare arm. There was, sadly, a probable reason for lack of caution.

Voltage is rather irrelevant imo. Current ( amperes ) kills not voltage.

 

[contrex]

Voltage is rather irrelevant imo. Current ( amperes ) kills not voltage.

Yes it's volts that jolt but mils that kill but my point was that there is no point getting alarmed about 750v 'leaping' to nearby human bodies because if you are a quarter of a millimetre away from the juice rail you're already in a serious safety fail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2022 ==

Was that the incident at Deal?

Yes indeedy. Very sad.