Third-rail locomotives

[fairysdad]

As per thread title - other than the Eurostar trains, are (or even were) there any locomotives that were third rail? (I did think the Javelins, but they're basically multiple units aren't they?)

 

[MCR247]

Class 73 is the first that springs to mind. Class 92 also is dual voltage IIRC

 

[ainsworth74]

As per thread title - other than the Eurostar trains, are (or even were) there any locomotives that were third rail? (I did think the Javelins, but they're basically multiple units aren't they?)

395s aren't just basically MUs they are EMUs!

As for third rail locomotives there were several on the Southern Region of BR in the low seventy range of TOPS numbering, try looking up Classes 70-74 on wikipedia and you'll find some information. Class 73s are still in service with various operators around the South East and Class 92s also have third rail capabilities.

 

[Drsatan]

The class 71 straight-electric locomotives and the class 74 locomotives (71s rebuilt in the late 1960s to accommodate a small diesel engine so the locomotives could haul boat trains on the short non-electrified line to Southampton Docks, among other duties) were 3rd rail locomotives.

The Southern Railway also manufactured three prototype third rail locomotives as well.

 

[Dreadnought]

Most notable is the class 73s of which there are numerous examples still working on the Southern Region.

There were also 24 class 71s of which 10 were converted to 74s. One E5001 still survives today at NRM Shildon.

 

[hello]

eurostar trains are not locos, they are also emus

 

[HSTEd]

Eurostars are no more EMUs than the HSTs are DMUs, the power cars are detachable but the passenger vehicles are two fixed formation sets, they simply have not swapped them around enough to justify the steps they took with the HSTs to redesignate them.

 

[starrymarkb]

Eurostars are no more EMUs than the HSTs are DMUs, the power cars are detachable but the passenger vehicles are two fixed formation sets, they simply have not swapped them around enough to justify the steps they took with the HSTs to redesignate them.

They are EMUs - distributed traction - I'm pretty sure that they can't operate without being connected to the R1 motor coach

 

[rockstar676]

They are indeed, one of the longest EMU's around.

 

[Schnellzug]

eurostar trains are not locos, they are also emus

Well... SNCF, I believe, classify TGV Power Cars as locomotives, and our own HST Power Cars seem these days to be regarded as locos.

(N.B. I am merely saying this for the purposes of pedantry, and since they're classified 373 on TOPS would suggest that we believe they're EMUs.)

 

[gg1]

The North Eastern Railway built a few 1500v DC electric locos with both third rail and pantograph around the turn of the 20th century for hauling trains to and from the docks in Newcastle.

http://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/es1.shtml

City & South London Railway, Central London Railway and the Metropolitan Railway all experimented with loco hauled stock in the early 20th century, the latter of the 3 was the most succesful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_electric_locomotives

 

[jopsuk]

In the US, some of the passenger locos that run into New York have auxiliary 3rd rail power- bascially a reverse of the Class 73, so they're designed to run at full power on diesel but 3rd rail on the final (tunneled) stretch to the terminal.

 

[Oracle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_70_(electric)
http://www.semgonline.com/electric/class70_1.html

 

[142094]

The North Eastern Railway built a few 1500v DC electric locos with both third rail and pantograph around the turn of the 20th century for hauling trains to and from the docks in Newcastle.

Only two of them were built for the Quayside branch in Newcastle - and were named class ES1 (Electric Shunter 1). Were used between Trafalgar Yard on the ECML - 1500 V DC overheads - and the Quayside area. The tunnel between the two was 3rd rail.

One is preseved at the NRM Shildon, and a might fine loco she is.

 

[eastwestdivide]

If you include third plus fourth rail, the London underground battery-electrics pick up from the juice rail. Plus those Metropolitan railway locos, of which Sarah Siddons (and others?) is preserved, and ran on the Southern network on railtours.

 

[mickey]

Well... SNCF, I believe, classify TGV Power Cars as locomotives, and our own HST Power Cars seem these days to be regarded as locos.

Linguistically speaking, TGV trains are multiple units because the same word is used in French to describe them as is used for trams, etc. Practically, too, since they are often used in multiple!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Only two of them were built for the Quayside branch in Newcastle - and were named class ES1 (Electric Shunter 1).

I think that they were similar in appearance, with their centre position cab, to the Swiss "Crocodile" electric engines. Many years ago, I had a book (now long out of print) with some very good black and white photographic images of the ES1 engines.

 

[142094]

I think that they were similar in appearance, with their centre position cab, to the Swiss "Crocodile" electric engines. Many years ago, I had a book (now long out of print) with some very good black and white photographic images of the ES1 engines.

Quite possibly - there were also some built for the Shildon - Newport (Middlesbrough) electrification named class EF1 (Electric Freight 1) which I think were of a similar design.

Westoe Colliery on South Tyneside also had some smaller versions which IIRC were made by Siemens. There used to be a good Fotopic website with pictures of them, which went when the site folded. They might be on Flickr now, will have a look later.

 

[jopsuk]

I think that they were similar in appearance, with their centre position cab, to the Swiss "Crocodile" electric engines. Many years ago, I had a book (now long out of print) with some very good black and white photographic images of the ES1 engines.

They do- there's also a hbit of kinship in the looks with the likes of this beast (though that has 12 individually driven axles

 

[dcd]

Most notable is the class 73s of which there are numerous examples still working on the Southern Region.

There were also 24 class 71s of which 10 were converted to 74s. One E5001 still survives today at NRM Shildon.

See here photos of 73s at Eastleigh

and E5001 at Shildon

 

[mickey]

Are those 73s at Eastleigh actually used for moving freight? If so, where to?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are those 73s at Eastleigh actually used for moving freight? If so, where to?

It's really just a temporary stabling point for any random GBRf locos used for infrastructure trains in the SE. Although EWS run the yard at Eastleigh, (ie the National Delivery Service aspects rather than the freight yard), GBRf run many of the weekend engineering trains to/from some other areas of the south and southeast. So for example you'll get EWS preparing a train of NR owned ballast trucks during the week, and GBRf take it over for the haul to the worksite.

That particular siding is where 'visiting' locos have always been parked up before and after use, but IIRC the GBRf 73s are actually based at St Leonards...

 

[The Colonel]

Eurostars are no more EMUs than the HSTs are DMUs, the power cars are detachable but the passenger vehicles are two fixed formation sets, they simply have not swapped them around enough to justify the steps they took with the HSTs to redesignate them.

The clue is the middle letter - M for multiple. Neither Eurostars or HST's are multiple units as they can't run in multiple with another of the same (or any other) type. A fixed formation train is a better description.
Sorry to drift from the original topic.

 

[Barrett M95]

They are EMUs - distributed traction - I'm pretty sure that they can't operate without being connected to the R1 motor coach

It is not a "multiple" unit in the traditional sense - they are never used in "multiple" any more than an HST is. Despite the fact it is two units connected together, that in itself does not qualify as multiple operation. You might say they have a category all of their own. TGV's (other than PSE units) have power cars without distributed traction - therefore are more like a traditional locomotive (and can operate separately if needed at limited speed), however to confuse matters further, they ARE used in multiple...

Perhaps a new category needed: TGV's perhaps...?!

 

[es373]

The definition of Locomotive is a railway vehicle that provides MOTIVE power for a train so essentially it is a loco.

The first 3 bogies (so bogies 1, 2 and 3) at either end of a full set are powered with 1 traction motor per axle, so thats 6 traction motors per half set. The rest are trailer bogies.

If you split the train at the m2 - r1 OR m1 - r1 the lone power car can move away and so can the rest of the train move away providing certain operational procedures are followed.
373 can only be split at the m2 - r1, m1 - r1 and r9 - r9.

Hope this clears it up.

 

[Barrett M95]

es373 thanks for that. I know we can move a TGV power car off an Atlantique or Reseau set by itself but wasn't sure about TMST operation. Sounds like it's the same.

 

[es373]

Yeah its secability any more questions then pm me

 

[fairysdad]

How did I miss the 73s?

Interesting to see the debate over whether Eurostars are MUs or not - the way I look at it is that if the main 'carriage' that is hauling the train has passengers during regular service, then it is not a locomotive but a unit, hence 73s are locos (although there is a place where passengers could go, they generally don't) and therefore the Eurostars are too (that is probably the wrong way to look at it, and I expect that some more learnéd members may prove me wrong by naming a locomotive that does/did have passenger seating in it, but hey ho!)

(Incidentally, does that make the restored GWR railmotor an SMU?)

 

[chuffchuff]

MLV :d

 

[Schnellzug]

Hasn't this turned into a fascinating thread; we'll be arguing about what the meaning of is is next . So an Eurostar should strictly be a EFFT, then (Electric Fixed Formation Train).