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These electrification plans...

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JohnCarlson

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There's nothing to say that cascaded EMUs will be used for the Transpennine electrification, given that it isn't even known yet which sections of line outside of the Manchester to Leeds core are going to be electrified yet.

It would be nice if an electrification project in what now constitutes the Northern franchise area could have brand new EMUs from the start for a change, but there is a rumour that the forty 365s will be cascaded from the Great Northern following replacement by IEPs and Thameslink, which would be a sufficient number to work the Newcastle, Middlesborough and Hull (And probably Scarborough too, but I don't think that it's likely to be electrified) Transpennine North services.

An electrified Harrogate circle would more likely be worked by cascaded 319s, which would only be possible if Northern were to receive all the former Thameslink 319s realistically, and I've personally got my fingers crossed that electrification of the Harrogate loop will come with the fourteen 332s from Heathrow Express to join their class 333 cousins and also replace the 321/9s and 322s in Yorkshire.

BBC Leeds seemed to be convinced it was going to York which is presumably why they interviewed people there about it. They also said it was going to have cascaded EMU's and I think had some footage of the type but I cant remember what it was.


The BBC could of course be wrong.

Best

John
 
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tbtc

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An electrified Harrogate circle would more likely be worked by cascaded 319s, which would only be possible if Northern were to receive all the former Thameslink 319s realistically, and I've personally got my fingers crossed that electrification of the Harrogate loop will come with the fourteen 332s from Heathrow Express to join their class 333 cousins and also replace the 321/9s and 322s in Yorkshire.

There are thirteen 321s at FCC which they won't need when their (non Moorgate) services are replaced by Thameslink (Peterborough and Cambridge semi-fasts)/ IEP (Kings Lynn)...

...Neville Hill already run 321/322s...

...Thirteen units would be enough to cover the Harrogate line (even allowing for an increase in Leeds - Horsforth services)...

...:?:
 

sprinterguy

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BBC Leeds seemed to be convinced it was going to York which is presumably why they interviewed people there about it. They also said it was going to have cascaded EMU's and I think had some footage of the type but I cant remember what it was.


The BBC could of course be wrong.

Best

John
I don't think that the BBC have ever been particularly proficient at providing footage of the correct type of train, though of course that doesn't mean that they weren't right, as I didn't see the report.
 

LE Greys

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There's nothing to say that cascaded EMUs will be used for the Transpennine electrification, given that it isn't even known yet which sections of line outside of the Manchester to Leeds core are going to be electrified yet.

It would be nice if an electrification project in what now constitutes the Northern franchise area could have brand new EMUs from the start for a change, but there is a rumour that the forty 365s will be cascaded from the Great Northern following replacement by IEPs and Thameslink, which would be a sufficient number to work the Newcastle, Middlesborough and Hull (And probably Scarborough too, but I don't think that it's likely to be electrified) Transpennine North services.

An electrified Harrogate circle would more likely be worked by cascaded 319s, which would only be possible if Northern were to receive all the former Thameslink 319s realistically, and I've personally got my fingers crossed that electrification of the Harrogate loop will come with the fourteen 332s from Heathrow Express to join their class 333 cousins and also replace the 321/9s and 322s in Yorkshire.

I don't think that twenty-year-old Networkers will be all-that good as an asset, although they will most likely have a full refurb and new motors (along the lines of the 465s). Personally, I think new 380s would be more likely, perhaps with the 365s staying at Hornesy to replace older units on the Great Eastern section.
 

OxtedL

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Incidentally, the newsagents just outside Oxted station has just put up a new sign, featuring either a 185 (or possibly a 170, difficult to tell) in Barbie livery.

The vast majority of people won't really notice what kind of a train it is. They might just about notice the colours or the noise, though. Serious commuter types, well... who knows.

Whilst it would be lovely to know exactly what's going to happen over the next 5-10 years with respect to rolling stock, it's rather difficult to predict, especially with the consistent deferring of new rolling stock at the moment, so I think that's somewhere at the bottom of the list for the time being.
 

IanXC

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There are thirteen 321s at FCC which they won't need when their (non Moorgate) services are replaced by Thameslink (Peterborough and Cambridge semi-fasts)/ IEP (Kings Lynn)...

...Neville Hill already run 321/322s...

...Thirteen units would be enough to cover the Harrogate line (even allowing for an increase in Leeds - Horsforth services)...

...:?:

Also when Manchester-Scotland gets its long term stock 10x 350/3s become available to replace London Midland's 7x 321s which should (?) cover the Leeds-Selby, Hull-York and Hull-Doncaster services.
 

Chris125

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I don't think that the BBC have ever been particularly proficient at providing footage of the correct type of train, though of course that doesn't mean that they weren't right, as I didn't see the report.

The Look North report was by Alan Whitehouse whose post on RMWeb i quoted - he believes its pretty likely to be 319's, i guess time will tell.

Chris
 

sprinterguy

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The Look North report was by Alan Whitehouse whose post on RMWeb i quoted - he believes its pretty likely to be 319's, i guess time will tell.

Chris
There's going to have to be a completely different set of EMUs for the Oxford and Newbury electrification if the 319s are expected to cover the North West electrification and Transpennine North.
 

Nym

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Although tbh, I'd quite like all 86 of them to go to GW for Thames Valley and Greater Bristol services, then they could run 'crowdbusters' between Reading and Paddington formed up of 12 or 16 car units (running from Oxford and Newbury), if the platforms at Paddington can take 320m long trains that is, oh I don't think they can post retail sprawl into the platform space.
 

tbtc

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Although tbh, I'd quite like all 86 of them to go to GW for Thames Valley and Greater Bristol services, then they could run 'crowdbusters' between Reading and Paddington formed up of 12 or 16 car units (running from Oxford and Newbury), if the platforms at Paddington can take 320m long trains that is, oh I don't think they can post retail sprawl into the platform space.

FGW only need 58 DMUs to run the Thames Valley services, some of which aren't due to be electrified (the Gatwick route, the Thames Valley branches, Greenford, Worcester etc), and some of which work in multiple as it is.

I'm not sure that there are *that* many EMUs needed in/around Bristol area either (based on current plans)?
 

LE Greys

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Although tbh, I'd quite like all 86 of them to go to GW for Thames Valley and Greater Bristol services, then they could run 'crowdbusters' between Reading and Paddington formed up of 12 or 16 car units (running from Oxford and Newbury), if the platforms at Paddington can take 320m long trains that is, oh I don't think they can post retail sprawl into the platform space.

Platform 1 can take sixteen, and used to do so on a regular basis with the summer Limited. Currently, I know that most of them can cope with thirteen Mk.Is plus a steam loco and a diesel pilot (with 13 and 14 being the exceptions).
 

swtandgw

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There's going to have to be a completely different set of EMUs for the Oxford and Newbury electrification if the 319s are expected to cover the North West electrification and Transpennine North.
If so, I hope it doesn't lead to more job losses at Derby, in case the Germans get their way in Desiros. Although don't get me wrong, I do like the Desiros very much (they are on my home line btw), but in these hard times, and because the Government are trying to boost UK manufacturing, I'd rather have Derby-built material running these lines, and also Crossrail.
 

Waverley125

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I think TPE long distance is likely to see a set of new LD EMUs, probably electrostars to give a boost to Bombardier to account for the loss of the last few contracts.

Other than that, I think the 13 321s will likely come north from FCC to work what (i would presume) will be the new Huddersfield-Leeds-York 'all shacks' service.

Harrogate line would be a good wiring project, as it will not only release a good number of pacers, but also the 155s and 153s which are still very good units, and could (and should) go to pacer replacement on the LNWR. I'd imagine Harrogate line wiring would use 315s cascaded off the Shenfield metro when Crossrail opens, or 317s replaced by electrostars on the Stansted Express.
 

Stats

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Confirmed only as far as Leeds it appears.

http://yorkconservatives.co.uk/autumn-statement/

Julian Sturdy asked the Chancellor


"Whilst I strongly welcome the Government’s decision to electrify the TransPennine rail link between Manchester and Leeds, and the boost that this will bring to our Northern economy, can I ask the Chancellor whether HM Treasury has also considered the strong economic case for extending this electrification to York?"

George Osborne responded with


"I shall certainly work with my Hon. Friend to look into the case of linking Leeds with York on the line."
 

Holly

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George Osborne responded with
"I shall certainly work with my Hon. Friend to look into the case of linking Leeds with York on the line."
I doubt they even reaslise the short gap that needs filling in! :lol: It seems lunacy NOT to fill in Neville Hill to Colton Junction (it must only be 17-18 miles)
Actually, I think there is a case for wiring Neville Hill to Colton Junction first.
It is less challenging engineering while they get up to speed and it is usable, on its own, to provide engineering diversions routes for electric trains not previously open.

And possibly new service opportunities even while only York-Leeds is energised(?).
 

YorkshireBear

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Surely one of the worst thought through decisions ever rail wise.... Hopefully as others suggest it is just a staged announcement so they can put more spin on it.
 

Bevan Price

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Scotland is hoping to get new units to replace Class 314 sometime. Is it likely that displaced 314's could be moved to Liverpool / Manchester / Leeds areas as a short-term measure until enough other emu's become available ?
 

Old Yard Dog

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Presumably the plan is to electrify the line via Huddersfield rather than the Calder Valley. The first commandment of transport policy after all does seem to be that Leeds shall get everything (fast rail services to London, HS2, trams, trolleybuses, the M1, ...) while Bradford & Halifax get nothing. Leeds Nimby's even got the M1/A1 link diverted to the south and east.

So - does anybody know whether the Hudderfield line will be electrified to Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester Victoria (or both)?

The Manchester hub proposals were based on Transpennine services running to Victoria with Manchester Airport trains from Leeds/Huddersfield and Bradford/Halifax running through to Piccadilly via a new curve at Salford. Is this still going ahead?
 

johnnychips

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Loads of posters on this thread, and the previous one when it was first announced, seemed to have assumed that Leeds-York would be electrified and produced elaborate route plannings and further proposals. Well what diagrams could happen if, in fact, it's only the Manchester-Leeds section that's going to be electrified?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I wonder if the Manchester to Leeds section, as announced, is meant to give better links to two large areas of commercial and financial services, with the economy in mind, rather than be a decision of general improvements to the rail network. Just a thought, as the two "Y" axis arms of the HS2 project are supposed to go to Manchester and Leeds.
 

JohnCarlson

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Loads of posters on this thread, and the previous one when it was first announced, seemed to have assumed that Leeds-York would be electrified and produced elaborate route plannings and further proposals. Well what diagrams could happen if, in fact, it's only the Manchester-Leeds section that's going to be electrified?

I use the Leeds-Manchester section quite a lot and am always struck by how slow the trains seem to travel. On one off peak occasion however wee seemed to belt along. Are trains slow because the line is just full or is it the state of the track or are they in fact traveling at an appropriate sped and its just me.
:)

If we just had the Leeds Manchester section done then I presume n a lot of Northern Pacers would be replaced by EMUs and that would speed up the services and increase capacity. TPE seem to be talking about two of their trains per hour just being on a Leeds Manchester service which could be EMUs while everything else remains DMU.


John
 

sprinterguy

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I think TPE long distance is likely to see a set of new LD EMUs, probably electrostars to give a boost to Bombardier to account for the loss of the last few contracts.

Other than that, I think the 13 321s will likely come north from FCC to work what (i would presume) will be the new Huddersfield-Leeds-York 'all shacks' service.

Harrogate line would be a good wiring project, as it will not only release a good number of pacers, but also the 155s and 153s which are still very good units, and could (and should) go to pacer replacement on the LNWR. I'd imagine Harrogate line wiring would use 315s cascaded off the Shenfield metro when Crossrail opens, or 317s replaced by electrostars on the Stansted Express.
There aren't any (or certainly not many, not entirely sure) 153s and 155s on the Harrogate Circle; it's primarily a mix of 142s, 144s and 150s.

I hope that Electrostars aren't the chosen traction for the Transpennine electrification, I'd sooner see Desiros operating the service if new rolling stock might be procured, but I'd also rather see new Electrostars over older cascaded EMUs, and if the interiors of these hypothetical Electrostars were laid out in the same way as 170s then I would have no cause for complaint tbh.

I'd be extremely disappointed if any electrification of the Harrogate Circle was to see 315s cascaded by Crossrail arriving in the North. This tendency for the north being seen as the retirement home for the former NSE area to pension off its' over the hill EMUs to (That's excluding 319s and the like because they still have a good few usable years in them at this point in time) has got to stop.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If we just had the Leeds Manchester section done then I presume n a lot of Northern Pacers would be replaced by EMUs and that would speed up the services and increase capacity. TPE seem to be talking about two of their trains per hour just being on a Leeds Manchester service which could be EMUs while everything else remains DMU.


John
If only Leeds to Manchester was electrified then because of the nature of Northern services on the North TPE route, where most services stray on and off the Transpennine corridor during the course of their journeys and the diagrams for the units will sometimes see them working in a different area later in the day anyway, it wouldn't replace that many Pacers at all. Just the Leeds to Huddersfield stopper, and the reciprocal service into Manchester. It would only release the sort of small numbers of Pacers that would be better off strengthening existing services around Leeds (and dare I say it, the stuff operating out of Heaton in the north east, too, given that most of the 142s operating within Yorkshire are Heaton diagrams.)

You are, however, right in saying that those aforementioned services going electric could help to increase capacity and average running speeds over Transpennine North. Although IMO, if only the Leeds to Manchester section is electrified, not allowing any of the existing Transpennine North services to go electric, then it really is a sad, sorry state of affairs.
 
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Anvil1984

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Harrogate line uses 2 155+153 combos each day for Leeds to Knaresborough diagrams.

As much as I'd like new stock for the line, just got to remember that this is just fantasy at the moment, its still not drfinate that Leeds to York VIA Garforth is being electrified yet
 
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