These electrification plans...

[hougtimo]

Does anyone know if they're actually coming to Hull or not?

TBQH we don't want silly electric trains. Noisy, rattly diesels are where it's at, Mr Cameron.

 

[PhilipW]

No, as of now (10:00 Wednesday 30th) there is still no official Press Release from the Department for Transport, so the details of exactly what is going to electrified are still uncertain.

..... I wonder if DfT actually know themselves ......

 

[ainsworth74]

..... I wonder if DfT actually know themselves ......

Well according to the Railway Eye the DfT have infact been abolished by the Treasury! Full story here.

 

[PhilipW]

Well 0207 944 3108 is the phone number of the DfT Press Office if anyone wants to phone up and ask what is going on.

Chances of getting a sensible reply ? I think we know the answer to that.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No, as of now (10:00 Wednesday 30th) there is still no official Press Release from the Department for Transport, so the details of exactly what is going to electrified are still uncertain.

..... I wonder if DfT actually know themselves ......

All we can be sure of is that £290m has been allocated to transpennine electrification by the Treasury.
It all depends what NR costed and whether they got it all approved or not.
Usually there is a sting in the tail somewhere...

They have not yet approved all the Northern Hub work, and there's resignalling to worry about, and what to do with Standedge Tunnel etc etc.
All of this impacts the work on the route and costs.

Manchester-Leeds-York has been in the pipeline for a while, and also Micklefield-Hambleton (for the abortive GNER "horseshoe" scheme) but I can't believe much planning work will have been done on Hambleton-Selby-Hull.

Plenty of headcratching going on I expect.

 

[Aictos]

Well according to the Railway Eye the DfT have infact been abolished by the Treasury! Full story here.

Wonderful, let the celebrations begin

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well according to the Railway Eye the DfT have infact been abolished by the Treasury! Full story here.

Has this "story" appeared anywhere else...or been on either television or radio yet?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That story doesn't actually say it's been abolished. All it says is an implication that it might as well be abolished because the Treasury is doing the job better.

 

[Aictos]

That story doesn't actually say it's been abolished. All it says is an implication that it might as well be abolished because the Treasury is doing the job better.

Which makes a change as it was the Treasury back in the early 90s which wanted BR broken up into as many pieces as possible to make as much money instead of following the French model which is how it ought to have been done and indeed is how it was requested to be done or Major's model which was just having the Big 4 back.

 

[IanXC]

All we can be sure of is that £290m has been allocated to transpennine electrification by the Treasury.
It all depends what NR costed and whether they got it all approved or not.

Based on costs of other schemes does anyone have an idea how many miles that would wire?

Given the service patterns I hope the wires make it to Hull, there would be then the chance to end lots of diesel under the wires. If things do look a bit iffy I'd hope some freight network money can be found to fill the gap.

 

[DarloRich]

No, as of now (10:00 Wednesday 30th) there is still no official Press Release from the Department for Transport, so the details of exactly what is going to electrified are still uncertain.

..... I wonder if DfT actually know themselves ......

I imagine that is quite correct! ithnk the Treasury might just TELL them what to do!

my gut feeling is that this scheme will NOT involve Hull. The money doesnt seem high enougth. I just hope they actually manage to electrify the line from Leeds to York!

 

[Wyvern]

Never get any dates on these grandiose announcements do we?

 

[PhilipW]

Now 13:00 on Thursday, some 48 hours after the Chancellor's announcement and still no statement from the DfT.

The more this goes on, the more it would appear that this announcement was included at the last minute as the Government wanted to show that is was seriously investing in our infrastructure.

I have no quarrel with that as I think trans Pennine electrification is an excellent idea and I agree that we should be investing in our country's infrastructure as one of the means to help us out of our financial problems.

That said, I do have a little wry smile to see the DfT wrongfooted.

I'm sure they will get there in the end.

 

[MacCookie]

Does anyone know if they're actually coming to Hull or not?

"A.18 Electrification of the Transpennine Express – The Government will support Network Rail to invest £290 million to electrify the Transpennine railway route from Manchester to Leeds starting next year." -- HM Treasury

 

[DarloRich]

"A.18 Electrification of the Transpennine Express – The Government will support Network Rail to invest £290 million to electrify the Transpennine railway route from Manchester to Leeds starting next year." -- HM Treasury

But to miss out York is just silly!

 

[tbtc]

The more this goes on, the more it would appear that this announcement was included at the last minute as the Government wanted to show that is was seriously investing in our infrastructure.

I have no quarrel with that as I think trans Pennine electrification is an excellent idea and I agree that we should be investing in our country's infrastructure as one of the means to help us out of our financial problems

I agree with you - this "investment in the future" appears to have been a last minute "carrot" to distract us from the "sticks" in the Chancellor's statement.

I'm not complaining, of course. But I think that there's maybe a parallel with the initial Lancashire electrification announcement (Manchester to Liverpool via Chat Moss), then the Bolton line was announced a little while after (thus getting more favourable press coverage).

I'd wager that we see a follow on announcement (Hull and Colton Junction) in a month or two (hyping up the fact that London - Hull will now be electrified) - there's no "hurry" to announce it of course as completion is several years away.

(the "Treasury over-ruling the DFT" aspect is interesting though - maybe no bad thing if the DFT is seen by many as part of the "problem"?)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

(the "Treasury over-ruling the DFT" aspect is interesting though - maybe no bad thing if the DFT is seen by many as part of the "problem"?)

Don't forget Justine Greening was until recently a Treasury minister and is reported to be a George Osborne acolyte.

 

[Nym]

I refer you to my post in the other thread covering this regarding
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ation strategy/networkrus_electrification.pdf

 

[PhilipW]

.... but that document is just what Network Rail wants. That may or may not be the same as what the Government has just authorised.

Until the DfT clarifies the situation, no one will know for certain.

I agree completely with everyone that Neville Hill to both York and to Hull should be electrified and I suspect that they will be either now or later.

.... but we just have to wait for clarification from the DfT

 

[YorkshireBear]

How many threads do we need on electrification of transpennine route.... getting a bit confusing now can we not merge the two as they are following the same points as proved by Nyms reference to his post in another thread.

 

[DarloRich]

.... but that document is just what Network Rail wants. That may or may not be the same as what the Government has just authorised.

Until the DfT clarifies the situation, no one will know for certain.

I agree completely with everyone that Neville Hill to both York and to Hull should be electrified and I suspect that they will be either now or later.

.... but we just have to wait for clarification from the DfT

Is there a business case AND the cash to do both York and Hull?

Neville Hill - Colton Junction seems a no brainer to me. It offers much more opperational flexibility for both TPE & EC. But would you have to add Northalelrton - Boro to make it sensible?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there a business case AND the cash to do both York and Hull?

There has been every time that Network Rail has looked at wiring them up.

 

[DarloRich]

but will the cash stretch that far? I think that was my point. There might be a business case but no money.

if it comes down to one or the other which section is of more operational use?

 

[tbtc]

I think that if you've wired Manchester - York then the business case for wiring the Micklefield - Hull line (plus chord at Hambleton via Sherburn to Church Fenton, and hte Selby chord) must be pretty decent.

One electrification improves the business case for nearby ones. Virtuous circle

 

[Nym]

And XC's CBR shoots up from 3.4 to 5.0...

 

[Chris125]

There's some interesting information coming out, especially if you read this post by Alan Whitehouse over on RMWeb.

- despite the confusion, York IS included
- NR have been asked to produce a report looking at the feasibility of extending the OLE to Hull, Scarborough and Middlesbrough, to be delivered by July next year
- the treasury advice note spoke about work starting possibly next year

While i think starting next year is a bit ambitious, the treasury are clearly in a hurry.

Chris

 

[Nym]

Well, if NR can pull their fingers out their derriéres and get a shove on, then the treasurry could turn round and say, "How much to make pacers go away?"

Then we can have the valley lines and some silly gaps closed.

 

[JohnCarlson]

There's some interesting information coming out, especially if you read this post by Alan Whitehouse over on RMWeb.

- despite the confusion, York IS included
- NR have been asked to produce a report looking at the feasibility of extending the OLE to Hull, Scarborough and Middlesbrough, to be delivered by July next year
- the treasury advice note spoke about work starting possibly next year

While i think starting next year is a bit ambitious, the treasury are clearly in a hurry.

Chris

On initially seeing the news I thought that Manchester to Leeds electrification would mean that the older electric units would really be replacing the Northern Pacers and not so much the TPE trains with maybe the electrics being used on 2 out of 6 TPE trains per hour.

However the BBC later seemed to confirm it would be Manchester to York which also allows the Newcastle trains to be replaced. Just how many cascaded EMU's are available might also effect the size of the scheme. I wonder if electrifying the Harigate loop would be preferable to electrifying to Midlesbrough or Hull?

 

[Nym]

Harrogate Loop unit for unit replacement wise would be about the same as Hull and Middlesbrough, don't know about the Harigate loop though...

But, there is also a need to a shed tonne more capacity across the pennines, the wires will make that happen.

 

[sprinterguy]

On initially seeing the news I thought that Manchester to Leeds electrification would mean that the older electric units would really be replacing the Northern Pacers and not so much the TPE trains with maybe the electrics being used on 2 out of 6 TPE trains per hour.

However the BBC later seemed to confirm it would be Manchester to York which also allows the Newcastle trains to be replaced. Just how many cascaded EMU's are available might also effect the size of the scheme. I wonder if electrifying the Harigate loop would be preferable to electrifying to Midlesbrough or Hull?

There's nothing to say that cascaded EMUs will be used for the Transpennine electrification, given that it isn't even known yet which sections of line outside of the Manchester to Leeds core are going to be electrified yet.

It would be nice if an electrification project in what now constitutes the Northern franchise area could have brand new EMUs from the start for a change, but there is a rumour that the forty 365s will be cascaded from the Great Northern following replacement by IEPs and Thameslink, which would be a sufficient number to work the Newcastle, Middlesborough and Hull (And probably Scarborough too, but I don't think that it's likely to be electrified) Transpennine North services.

An electrified Harrogate circle would more likely be worked by cascaded 319s, which would only be possible if Northern were to receive all the former Thameslink 319s realistically, and I've personally got my fingers crossed that electrification of the Harrogate loop will come with the fourteen 332s from Heathrow Express to join their class 333 cousins and also replace the 321/9s and 322s in Yorkshire.