Theoretical - missed connection

[highspeed990]

It's common for there to be a message if a GC train is cancelled saying that tickets will be accepted on certain trains only. For example if the 1702 GC service from York to London is cancelled, the message might say that tickets will be accepted on the 1635, 1731 and 1802 East Coast services, but not the 1657 or 1757 services.

There might also be an instruction to take a TransPennine or Northern service to Leeds and then use the 1745, 1815 or 1845 services from Leeds to London Kings Cross.

On one memorable occasion a Hull Trains service from Hull to London was cancelled due to a failed 180, and the services tickets were being accepted on were all Sheffield to London St Pancras! Road transport was provided from Selby and Howden to Sheffield to connect with the nominated services, and Northern / TransPennine accepted tickets between from Doncaster, Brough and Hull to Sheffield.

I give up , I need to go and get a degree in ticketing, these rules are so random

 

[najaB]

I give up , I need to go and get a degree in ticketing, these rules are so random

Get yourself to a forum Fares Workshop, you can learn the basics.

 

[yorkie]

I give up , I need to go and get a degree in ticketing, these rules are so random

What you quote are not rules as such. But yes railway ticketing is very complex. The best way to use this forum is to do a lot of reading. I'd start by thoroughly reading our Fares Guide (admittedly this is now out of date in some areas, for which I apologise. It is on our to-do list to get this updated).

Never assume you know the answer, and ask questions if you are unsure (where appropriate; sometimes a new thread would be required rather than going off-topic in an existing thread).

A few years ago I thought I knew a fair amount about railway ticketing, but actually at that time there was a lot I didn't know. The more you learn, the more you realise there is to learn.

Expect the unexpected. A forum member (not very active these days) had a saying along these lines: there are valid tickets that look invalid, there are invalid tickets that look valid, and everything in between.

The fastest route isn't always permitted, conditions are not always clear-cut, the shortest route isn't always obvious, negative easement (which are oxymorons) don't always have any actual effect, TOCs who price a particular flow may not operate any trains on which those fares are valid, some fares can never be sold by any online booking system as there are no services they are deemed to be valid on, and ... well, I could go on.

But I think there isn't anything else to be answered in this particular thread.

 

[I13]

On a similar subject, say I had an advance from Bath to King's Cross (i.e. the destination on the ticket would be Zone U12* London or similar, meaning it includes travel on the Underground from Paddington to King's Cross), and then an advance from King's Cross to York, and in booking these tickets I have adhered to minimum connection times. If my train from Bath to Paddington was delayed enough to make me miss my booked train from King's Cross, would I be entitled to travel on a later train from King's Cross? Would I also be covered if there was a delay on the underground?

If so, and then this was disputed at King's Cross, would conditions 14.1 and 28.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel be enough to prove this?

Many thanks.

 

[najaB]

On a similar subject ... would I be entitled to travel on a later train from King's Cross? Would I also be covered if there was a delay on the underground?

My opinion is 'Yes' and 'Yes'.

 

[Starmill]

If my train from Bath to Paddington was delayed enough to make me miss my booked train from King's Cross, would I be entitled to travel on a later train from King's Cross? Would I also be covered if there was a delay on the underground?

Yes. This is much more clear cut.

 

[yorkie]

On a similar subject, say I had an advance from Bath to King's Cross (i.e. the destination on the ticket would be Zone U12* London or similar, meaning it includes travel on the Underground from Paddington to King's Cross), and then an advance from King's Cross to York, and in booking these tickets I have adhered to minimum connection times. If my train from Bath to Paddington was delayed enough to make me miss my booked train from King's Cross, would I be entitled to travel on a later train from King's Cross? Would I also be covered if there was a delay on the underground?
.

definitely yes

Accredited split ticketing websites will sell such combinations and issue a through itinerary for the throughput journey from Bath to York.

Booking them separately (or together) yourself gives you the same rights, the only difference is that if you encounter a poorly trained obstructive member of staff you don't have the evidence to prove it.

This is documented in the "Advance Fare FAQ"; a copy of this is in our Fares Guide.

 

[I13]

Thank you all. Should I encounter a member of staff who disputes this, do the conditions I mentioned above (14.1 and 28.1) form the basis for my combination of tickets being valid?

Is the Advance Fare FAQ official? If so, should I ask this hypothetical member of staff to check it?

 

[Shadow Cat]

Honestly. If you miss a train due to delays (Like I did yesterday thanks to VT 8:57 from Haymarket).

Speak to customer service staff at the station you missed the connection, explain the situation to them. Usually they just turn around and say "There isn't much you can do about delays, sorry about the trouble, your ticket is valid on XXX service to XXX" its honestly as simple as that.

The most important thing is to talk in a sensible, calm manner, explain the situation and work with ticket/platform staff. If you start making it sound like its a TOC's fault (even if it is, it doesn't and shouldn't matter) then they will be less inclined to help you (Would you feel the need to go out of your way for a rude person, or a calm person. Simple as that)

(Edit, by "less inclined" I mean, they will have to help you, but you will get a different experience than someone who's calm/relaxed.. Respect earned, Respect Gained)

 

[IanXC]

If the disruption is serious enough and thousands of customers are unable to travel on their planned trains (which is usually the case when CSL2 is declared) another operator can't refuse to take any other passengers just because. They might if they have no capacity to physically carry any more people.

Train operators are signed up to an approved code of practice to follow in these situations, which is probably somewhere on the RDG website. It used to be very clear that during significant disruption customers were not to be discriminated against on the basis of operator.

If you are talking of major disruption, ticket acceptance will be automatic.

Ticket Acceptance is not automatic, even in the case of major disruption. It relies on the TOC experiencing the major disruption (the CSL2 event) to understand that they are unable to convey passengers to their destinations/interchanges, and ask other TOCs to assist in conveying their passengers. The other TOCs cannot refuse the request, unless they have for instance, significant disruption on the route being requested or insufficient capacity to assist.

In the instance of connecting passengers being delayed the numbers are likely to be significantly fewer and the advice of staff should be sought. There is no absolute that can be laid down, but &Connections ticket holders should expect to take the next available service, those with TOC specific should consider what is reasonable, if the next service is 40 minutes away, and the next service meeting the restriction is an hour away, arguably it is reasonable to be required to stick to the restriction.

On a similar subject, say I had an advance from Bath to King's Cross (i.e. the destination on the ticket would be Zone U12* London or similar, meaning it includes travel on the Underground from Paddington to King's Cross), and then an advance from King's Cross to York, and in booking these tickets I have adhered to minimum connection times. If my train from Bath to Paddington was delayed enough to make me miss my booked train from King's Cross, would I be entitled to travel on a later train from King's Cross? Would I also be covered if there was a delay on the underground?

If so, and then this was disputed at King's Cross, would conditions 14.1 and 28.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel be enough to prove this?

Many thanks.

In this example, if the split ticket is a VTEC Kings Cross to York ticket, then it would probably be seen as unreasonable to expect to travel on a Grand Central service, even if that is the next available.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Speaking of GC ticket acceptance, I had an "interesting" experience back in 2009 when National Express were their rivals.
Was travelling from King's Cross to York, then onto Whitby by bus, returning a week later.
There weren't any cheap advances left and decided to go by GC who IIRC didn't do advance tickets then. At that time I didn't have a debit card and decided to buy on the day at KGX.
Due to a longer than anticipated tube journey to KGX, we only arrived less than 30 minutes before departure (first GC of the day) to find it had been cancelled but that tickets were being accepted on the next NXEC service.
The ticket machines in the ticket office were all card only and the ones on the concourse that accepted cash were not doing so, therefore I had to join the (long) queue in the ticket office.
I was part way through it when I heard someone being refused a ticket. When I got served I knew why. I was refused my GC returns to York "because the train is cancelled."
This was in addition to the extraordinary sight of the Ticket Office Manager (?) yelling at the GC representative who was helping people get tickets out of the machines that if he didn't stop doing so he'd have all the GC passengers removed from the train.
I also heard that at the gateline a NXEC staff member was moaning about "all the rubbish" we're getting on here or suchlike. Nice.
In the end, the GC man assured us we would get on a train and after a wait to source a portable ticket machine (and then get into it) he sold us GC tickets for cash and I asked him to check with the NXEC staff on the service after (as the first one had now left) that they would honour them, which they did.
It arrived at York too late for our bus connection unfortunately and we had to wait for the next (two hours or so later?) and I went to the ticket office there to buy my bus add in to Whitby (which the GC man didn't know is how to do.) I was served pleasantly with no problem and remarked how different the experience was to King's Cross and why to be told that they were right to do that as the train was cancelled and it would be against terms and conditions etc.
Older and wiser now I should have insisted on the ticket as it was an off peak return not valid in a specific train or tried the GN ticket office or machines. Probably should have tried to claim a chunk of money back as we arrived at Whitby late but never did! Don't know is if missing a bus connection would have counted...any ideas anyone out of interest.
Done the journey to Whitby twice more since...once the same way but not by GC but the apparent non-existence of the bus add-on so having to pay the full bus fare plus the nervousness of the bus being full coming back and missing the train meant this year we went as we did the very first time...all the way by train via Middlesbrough...much nicer, hassle-free and IIRC cheaper!

 

[Starmill]

The buses to Whitby are shown in the National Rail Timetable (and on NRE) and through ticketing is offered, so I would say that delay compensation probably does apply. Worth noting that Grand Central are not in the 'Delay Repay' scheme though, and do not compensate for delays of under an hour.

 

[MotCO]

Many thanks for all your comments and advice -I didn't expect it to be quite that complicated!

I can fortunately report that the journey today passed without incident, and all trains were on time or thereabouts. Incidentally, the trip was by Southeastern, Thameslink and Grand Central, rather than Great Northern as some surmised.

 

[yorkie]

Many thanks for all your comments and advice -I didn't expect it to be quite that complicated!

Railway ticketing matters do tend to be complicated. The association of train companies calls this "simple ticketing".

I can fortunately report that the journey today passed without incident, and all trains were on time or thereabouts.

Glad to hear it

Incidentally, the trip was by Southeastern, Thameslink and Grand Central, rather than Great Northern as some surmised.

I was correct that you travelled with GTR, but it sounds like you arrived into St Pancras by train, rather than King's Cross This means an additional 16 minutes has to be allowed, making the total connection time 31 minutes.

 

[highspeed990]

What you quote are not rules as such. But yes railway ticketing is very complex. The best way to use this forum is to do a lot of reading. I'd start by thoroughly reading our Fares Guide (admittedly this is now out of date in some areas, for which I apologise. It is on our to-do list to get this updated).

Never assume you know the answer, and ask questions if you are unsure (where appropriate; sometimes a new thread would be required rather than going off-topic in an existing thread).

A few years ago I thought I knew a fair amount about railway ticketing, but actually at that time there was a lot I didn't know. The more you learn, the more you realise there is to learn.

Expect the unexpected. A forum member (not very active these days) had a saying along these lines: there are valid tickets that look invalid, there are invalid tickets that look valid, and everything in between.

The fastest route isn't always permitted, conditions are not always clear-cut, the shortest route isn't always obvious, negative easement (which are oxymorons) don't always have any actual effect, TOCs who price a particular flow may not operate any trains on which those fares are valid, some fares can never be sold by any online booking system as there are no services they are deemed to be valid on, and ... well, I could go on.

But I think there isn't anything else to be answered in this particular thread.

Tickets are so complicated, that there are sayings about it

I do apologise, I thought it wasn't THAT complicated so assumed it was you who misunderstood. I think I'll try and stick to advice that I'm absolutely sure of now, such as routes I regularly travel on, and stand back and watch the posts on threads a bit. If I do make a mistake again, do point it out again, so I don't misinform people, and as Stevenage to London is a route I'm likely to use, now I know my advance ticket is not restricted to one train.