Theoretical - missed connection

[MotCO]

THEORETICAL: If I start my journey on one train, which is then delayed and thus I miss my next connection, can I travel on another TOC's train despite holding Advanced tickets if my booked train is an infrequent service.

The example I have is going from Kings Cross to Sunderland using Grand Central. If the train getting me to Kings Cross is delayed, and I miss my 12.53 train to Sunderland, the next Grand Central train is not until 16.50. What are the chances of being able to travel by VTEC to Newcastle and go by Metro to Sunderland, obviously seeking the Train Manager's permission?

 

[Stampy]

I wouldn't have thought that would have been a problem...

I had the same earlier this year whilst coming back from the Bolton v Northampton game, when some idiot decided to pull the cord at Bolton station becuase they didn't get off in time.

Train was delayed 15 mins, and I missed my 10 minute connection at Manchester Victoria to get on a train back to Leeds.

Ticket office at Manchester Victoria stamped my ticket and "allowed" me to get the NEXT train back to Leeds and then South to Peterborough...

 

[highspeed990]

Yes as long as you adhere to minimum connection times.

 

[Merseysider]

Yes as long as you adhere to minimum connection times.

No, there is no automatic entitlement to travel on another TOC's services.

Most staff will apply common sense however.

 

[highspeed990]

No, there is no automatic entitlement to travel on another TOC's services.

Most staff will apply common sense however.

Sorry, you're right. You can only use that operator, but if it's the last train and it's run by a different TOC, then they have to let you use it or a taxi, it's easier for them to let you use the train.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

From the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Conditions of Travel 2016.pdf


28.1 If disruption prevents you from completing the journey shown on your Ticket, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Would this not "in theory" say you can use any TOC to complete your journey?

Delay is disruption.

 

[MikeWh]

Would this not "in theory" say you can use any TOC to complete your journey?

Delay is disruption.

Not necessarily. If the delay caused you to miss the last train of the company you should be using then I would expect other companies to assist. If there are other options then there is no obligation to allow travel on another TOC.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Not necessarily. If the delay caused you to miss the last train of the company you should be using then I would expect other companies to assist. If there are other options then there is no obligation to allow travel on another TOC.

""If disruption prevents you from completing the journey shown on your Ticket, ANY Train Company""

At no point does it state "last train" just IF disruption then ANY train company.........

 

[MikeWh]

""If disruption prevents you from completing the journey shown on your Ticket, ANY Train Company""


At no point does it state "last train" just IF disruption then ANY train company.........

If disruption prevents you completing your journey. Completing = getting to your destination.
If delays make you late then you can claim delay repay.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

If disruption prevents you completing your journey. Completing = getting to your destination.
If delays make you late then you can claim delay repay.

I would argue delay disrupts me, so is disruption, it doesn't state what type of disruption.

 

[221129]

I would argue delay disrupts me, so is disruption, it doesn't state what type of disruption.

And you would probably end up buying a new ticket for your trouble.

 

[yorkie]

Yes as long as you adhere to minimum connection times.

Be careful; you make a very brief post about a potentially complex subject.

In this case, a "train into King's Cross" is delayed; we can deduce this is likely to be operated by GTR. The onward ticket is a GC Only ticket, but the next GC train is hours later. VTEC may be reluctant to allow travel on one of their trains unless someone else pays. GC are not in any way liable. So you may have to rely on GTR authorising it.

I would initially seek assistance at the ticket office (this is operated by VTEC, but they would be able to liaise with GTR staff) and if I did not get a good response there, my next port of call would be to seek assistance from GTR directly, and if still no luck, I would approach VTEC Train Managers of the next available services individually.

 

[bb21]

I would argue delay disrupts me, so is disruption, it doesn't state what type of disruption.

The key condition is not what constitutes "disruption", but if such disruption "prevents you from completing the journey". If there were further journey opportunities on your contracted TOC, it isn't preventing you from completing your journey.

In reality, if this resulted in an extended wait, discretion would be exercised in general to allow you to complete your journey on the next available train regardless of operator, but this is not guaranteed for a variety of reasons, eg. overcrowding, unless it is the last train by your contracted TOC.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

The key condition is not what constitutes "disruption", but if such disruption "prevents you from completing the journey". If there were further journey opportunities on your contracted TOC, it isn't preventing you from completing your journey.

In reality, if this resulted in an extended wait, discretion would be exercised in general to allow you to complete your journey on the next available train regardless of operator, but this is not guaranteed for a variety of reasons, eg. overcrowding, unless it is the last train by your contracted TOC.

But, like I said , it doesn't , as far as I can see, state anywhere it has to be the same TOC if disruption / delay occurs

 

[yorkie]

But, like I said , it doesn't , as far as I can see, state anywhere it has to be the same TOC if disruption / delay occurs

In many cases it would indeed be the case that it doesn't have to be the same TOC; for example if you were delayed on a connecting leg of an "& Connections" ticket, or an routeing such as "AP SLOUGH".

But the view of VTEC may well be that the TOC restriction trumps anything else. If they were to charge you, getting money back off them could be very difficult indeed.

 

[bb21]

No, it does not, at least not in that condition as you correctly point out.

But as I said earlier, the key is "prevents you from completing the journey". If the TOC your ticket is restricted to still operated more trains on that day, it is not preventing you from completing the journey.

 

[Starmill]

It often is the case that you are simply asked to wait for the next train by the correct operator. I remember once during major disruption caused by a lineside fire my booked service from Kings Cross was cancelled, with my 'EC& Connections' Advance to Nottingham. I went to the ticket office and was told harshly as my reserved train had been cancelled that the only service I was permitted to use was the next one which connected with a service to Nottingham at Grantham, and that if I boarded an earlier or later service to Grantham (there was a Hull Trains service, then an East Coast service and then another East Coast service that was given an additional stop order before - although the ticket office did not seem to know that - before the one I was told to catch) I would be required to buy a new ticket. I did as he told me, allowing 3 trains to Grantham to go with me waiting at Kings Cross before catching the next one that connected with a service towards Nottingham, which was then late and missed the connection. Thus I was well over 2 hours late arriving at Nottingham. I would probably have been less than an hour late if I had been given better advice, and just told to catch the first available East Coast train to Grantham and wait there, and if I had been able to use the Hull Trains service I would probably not have even missed my first connection and been on time. As I was so late they had to pay the full price of my ticket in delay repay.

I don't know why but some TOCs seem much more interested in paying you delay repay than allowing you to use alternative routes or train companies. If I had been permitted to use an EMT service to Nottingham from across the road at St Pancras I would certainly have arrived on time, or probably even early.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I went to the ticket office and was told harshly as my reserved train had been cancelled that the only service I was permitted to use was the next one which connected with a service to Nottingham at Grantham

This is interesting. I think such terrible and incorrect "advice" might derive from over-dependence on computerised journey planners. Perhaps the clerk will have put King's Cross to Nottingham into his/her computer, and the only train departing King's Cross that will have come up is the one that allowed the shortest connection time at Grantham before the next connecting train to Nottingham. I had something similar many years ago - the exact details are a bit hazy now - but I was trying to make a reservation for a friend to travel from Leeds to Newcastle and I wanted to avoid the direct CrossCountry Voyager, instead changing at York for an East Coast train. The clerk seemed to have great difficulty in grasping that the trains I wanted to make the reservation on actually existed.

My theory is that constant use of computerised journey planning systems, with their absolute focus on the fastest journey only, causes people to lose the ability to plan a journey manually, with the result that when a customer requires anything other than the fastest journey, they're out of their depth and may even have difficulty understanding the concept.

 

[Alan2603]

It often is the case that you are simply asked to wait for the next train by the correct operator. I remember once during major disruption caused by a lineside fire my booked service from Kings Cross was cancelled, with my 'EC& Connections' Advance to Nottingham. I went to the ticket office and was told harshly as my reserved train had been cancelled that the only service I was permitted to use was the next one which connected with a service to Nottingham at Grantham, and that if I boarded an earlier or later service to Grantham (there was a Hull Trains service, then an East Coast service and then another East Coast service that was given an additional stop order before - although the ticket office did not seem to know that - before the one I was told to catch) I would be required to buy a new ticket. I did as he told me, allowing 3 trains to Grantham to go with me waiting at Kings Cross before catching the next one that connected with a service towards Nottingham, which was then late and missed the connection. Thus I was well over 2 hours late arriving at Nottingham. I would probably have been less than an hour late if I had been given better advice, and just told to catch the first available East Coast train to Grantham and wait there, and if I had been able to use the Hull Trains service I would probably not have even missed my first connection and been on time. As I was so late they had to pay the full price of my ticket in delay repay.

However (and in direct contrast) the week before last, my wife was travelling a roughly similar sort of journey, using Advance tickets, into Kings Cross by Great Northern (or whatever they are now called), then out of Kings Cross by VTEC to York and changing onto TPE to get to Scarborough.

The first train was late, meaning she missed her 'booked' northbound VTEC train. Upon going to the ticket office at Kings Cross, her ticket was marked and she was told to 'just get the next VTEC train to York and wait there for the next Scarborough connection'. Which is exactly what she did without any problems. Infact she commented that it was much easier getting from Platform 11 to Platform 4 at York without being in a mad throng rushing for the Scarborough train!

Obviously, the advice from the ticket office at Kings Cross can be somewhat 'variable'!

 

[AlterEgo]

I would argue delay disrupts me, so is disruption, it doesn't state what type of disruption.

Yes, but you'd still be able to complete your journey. Missing the 11:50 train to Sunderland isn't you being prevented from completing your journey - you'll just have a long wait.

I'm not sure what would happen in practice but do bear in mind GC/VTEC have very narrow acceptance arrangements; I would not be terribly confident that 300 people at King's Cross can just get on the next VTEC and stuff it to the rafters without consequence.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would initially seek assistance at the ticket office (this is operated by VTEC, but they would be able to liaise with GTR staff) and if I did not get a good response there, my next port of call would be to seek assistance from GTR directly, and if still no luck, I would approach VTEC Train Managers of the next available services individually.

I think this would be the best advice available in the circumstances; it's what I would do.

 

[mallard]

There are a few cases where a particular TOC operates one train per day (or week) on a route that's mainly another operator's territory. EMT's services to York for example (and Advance tickets are sold for this service). If a late connection caused you to miss such a service, I'd hope you'd be allowed to use another TOC to get to your destination, but since the railway rules are unclear (at best) on the point, it's likely you'd have some difficulty... A passenger booked on the aforementioned service from Sheffield to York might find themselves sent via Nottingham and Lincoln to Doncaster before being reluctantly allowed to use another TOC from there.

 

[221129]

There are a few cases where a particular TOC operates one train per day (or week) on a route that's mainly another operator's territory. EMT's services to York for example (and Advance tickets are sold for this service). If a late connection caused you to miss such a service, I'd hope you'd be allowed to use another TOC to get to your destination, but since the railway rules are unclear (at best) on the point, it's likely you'd have some difficulty... A passenger booked on the aforementioned service from Sheffield to York might find themselves sent via Nottingham and Lincoln to Doncaster before being reluctantly allowed to use another TOC from there.

If there is only one train a day and you miss it through the fault of the railway then you will be put on the next available service to your destination.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it does not, at least not in that condition as you correctly point out.

But as I said earlier, the key is "prevents you from completing the journey". If the TOC your ticket is restricted to still operated more trains on that day, it is not preventing you from completing the journey.

Is there legal precedent as to what that means? To the layman, the journey shown on the ticket might include the times. Does it to a Court?

(I agree with you in so much as Railway policy is as you state, but if they write it down wrong they could still end up on the thick end of a Court case).

 

[mallard]

If there is only one train a day and you miss it through the fault of the railway then you will be put on the next available service to your destination.

Except that as this thread points out, that's not a rule (unless there's only one train of any TOC per day on the route, in which case road transport would have to be arranged) and is reliant on the goodwill of railway staff. While there are plenty of staff who will happily apply such goodwill, there are some that won't and thus it's unwise to rely on it.

 

[221129]

Except that as this thread points out, that's not a rule (unless there's only one train of any TOC per day on the route, in which case road transport would have to be arranged) and is reliant on the goodwill of railway staff. While there are plenty of staff who will happily apply such goodwill, there are some that won't and thus it's unwise to rely on it.

That is not what the rule is at all.

 

[mallard]

That is not what the rule is at all.

The rule as published does not adequately explain the situation; it simply says "If disruption prevents you from completing the journey shown on your Ticket..." it could easily be argued that "the journey shown on your Ticket" is still possible because other TOCs services are available even though the TOC restriction shown on the ticket doesn't allow you to use them (the "journey" and the TOC restriction being separate from each other). In which case, some staff/TOCs may argue that you have to purchase an additional ticket. Since that brings in more revenue for the TOC, it'll obviously be their preferred argument unless a court rules otherwise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that depends on what "the journey shown on your ticket" is and what precedent governs that interpretation.

Certainly were it a booking for air travel that would be very much the *actual flights* shown, not just a theoretical completion before the usual 4-6 hour gap in service overnight.

 

[highspeed990]

Be careful; you make a very brief post about a potentially complex subject.

In this case, a "train into King's Cross" is delayed; we can deduce this is likely to be operated by GTR. The onward ticket is a GC Only ticket, but the next GC train is hours later. VTEC may be reluctant to allow travel on one of their trains unless someone else pays. GC are not in any way liable. So you may have to rely on GTR authorising it.

I would initially seek assistance at the ticket office (this is operated by VTEC, but they would be able to liaise with GTR staff) and if I did not get a good response there, my next port of call would be to seek assistance from GTR directly, and if still no luck, I would approach VTEC Train Managers of the next available services individually.

And merseyrider kindly corrected me, so I made another post, did you red that one?
I'm also talking about what they must do according to the contract. If you missed your London to stevenage virgin train, they might be strict and make you wait 2 hours, or let you on the great northern anyway.