The 'Stop Hs2' campaign's dirty tricks.

[Waverley125]

I think the point is that freight can be much better catered for with upgrades of the classic lines than new passenger traffic can. A few projects for freight that are in planning/in the works:

-upgrade of Peterborough-Birmingham
-upgrade of the Peterborough-Doncaster 'joint line'

as well as electrifying both of the above, as well as the line through to Felixstowe from Peterborough via Ely.

The major improvement I'd like to see would be proper investment in inter-operable freight yards for container traffic in strategic locations by both urban centres and motorways, along with a range of electric lorries to move goods from the terminals to final delivery locations. Some good examples of locations would be Hunslet (Leeds), Trafford Park (Manchester), Catcliffe (Sheffield) and Longacre (Newcastle)

 

[Snapper]

Quite Waverley125. Build Hs2 not dedicated freight routes. You also gain extra interregional and commuter capacity on the WCML as well as 18tph high-speed rail between major cities. Dedicated freight routes are the wrong answer to the wrong question.

 

[Squaddie]

A purely freight railway will never cover its costs...

And you think a £30bn high-speed line between London and Birmingham will? How much more will people be prepared to pay to save 20 minutes?

 

[YorkshireBear]

And you think a £30bn high-speed line between London and Birmingham will? How much more will people be prepared to pay to save 20 minutes?

For the billionth time it is not just about time saving.

 

[Nym]

And the £30bn is not JUST for a sodding line to Birmingham!

 

[hwl]

And the £30bn is not JUST for a sodding line to Birmingham!

And is only £19bn if you remove all the (massive) optimism bias...

 

[tbtc]

They built a dedicated freight railway from Rotterdam docks direct into Germany - is that a white elephant?

I've no idea. But I'd imagine that the freight traffic at Rotterdam into the heart of the EU accounts for a pretty large predictable flow.

Britain is much smaller, and has many ports, so there's no one logical route to put any dedicated freight line (do you serve Southampton or Felixstow? do you try to route it past the heavy industry of south Wales/ Yorkshire or link it to distribution sites like Mossend?).

Worth pointing out that the plans to electrify the Southampton line properly are one way of enhancing freight in this country.

 

[Snapper]

And you think a £30bn high-speed line between London and Birmingham will? How much more will people be prepared to pay to save 20 minutes?

It's not 20 minutes, it's 38. Other posters have added important points , I'll add another. The WCML will be full by the mid 2020s. With Firsts plans for the new franchise this may be sooner. We need Hs2 for the capacity for the future, to cope with the growth of passenger and freight traffic - including from the new container ports being built at Liverpool and Thameshaven.

To try and pretend it's all about knocking '20' mins of a trip to Birmingham when that part of the line is just phase 1 of a Y network is disingenuous, if not downright dishonest.

 

[DarloRich]

My view on HS2 - Build it, build it now. Stopping faffing about. If it was being built through Middlesbrough or Darlington or infact anywhere other than the Cotswolds the bulldozers would be rolling by now.

If the NIMBYS dont like it then tough. Issue a compulsory purchase order and get shot of them. I would make the compensation as low as possible. Why pander to these people? Why engage in deabte or surveys or campaigns or any of the other things. Just build it. NOW

 

[gordonthemoron]

in anycase the Cotswolds have already been spoilt by their houses

 

[jones_bangor]

And is only £19bn if you remove all the (massive) optimism bias...

Ha ha ha. Based on the WCML upgrade debacle, on budget delivery and railways do not go together in the UK.

 

[6Gman]

in anycase the Cotswolds have already been spoilt by their houses

Nice one

 

[Nym]

Ha ha ha. Based on the WCML upgrade debacle, on budget delivery and railways do not go together in the UK.

Hmm, except on the only other High Speed railway we've built in this country that came in under budget and on time?

 

[jon0844]

What about HS1?

Edit: Oops, beaten to it!

HS1 is also the most relevant too, as it is not only a high speed line but also shows why something built from scratch is better than upgrading existing infrastructure (WCML, TL etc). Not sure if the Thameslink project is on budget but it has certainly caused lots of disruption. HS2 could be mostly built without anyone even noticing.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Snapper]

Ha ha ha. Based on the WCML upgrade debacle, on budget delivery and railways do not go together in the UK.

Base it on Hs1 or on the TV 4-tracking, both new lines (and thus far simpler and on budget) not a problematic rebuild of an existing line which was always going to be a nightmare as you didn't know what you'd find. Oh, and you had to do it over weekends/nights/Bank Holidays as the railway still had to run. New build has none of those problems.

 

[Donny Dave]

Isn't it funny how people from the pro HS2 camp want the anti HS2 camp silenced because of their name calling (some of which is way out of order, I agree), but yet a HS2 supporter then posts on their Facebook profile the following....

So, X Factor is back. Or thick w******, watching rich w****** tell s*** w****** that they're w******.

Is it any wonder that with posts like that (on any subject), some HS2 supporters get a lot of grief?

Anyway, I'm against HS2 purely because I think the UK is too compact with urban areas too close to each other for the line to be of any real benefit. Euston to New Street is 113 miles, and Euston - Piccadilly is 183.5 miles. After Manchester, where does the line go?

If the line was something like London - Edinburgh/Glasgow - Perth - Inverness/Aberdeen with a first stop of Leeds or Preston/Manchester, it would be more beneficial to more people, although possibly still a white elephant.

The first high speed line in France (and Europe) and still remains their busiest is Paris sud est line to Lyon which is considerably shorter than the UKs two North/South main lines to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

That's the thing about France though. Because of the size of the country, towns and cities are more spread out from each other. Paris - Lyon may only be roughly 290 miles apart by road, but the real benefit of TGV Sud Est is that services extend to Perpignan and Marseille which are considerably further away.

The Atlantique line to Tours is shorter than London to Manchester but even if you remained on the train to Bordeaux it is still some 40 miles less than London to Glasgow.

Same point again, towns and cities are further away from each other.

 

[tbtc]

I'm against HS2 purely because I think the UK is too compact with urban areas too close to each other for the line to be of any real benefit. Euston to New Street is 113 miles, and Euston - Piccadilly is 183.5 miles. After Manchester, where does the line go?

If the line was something like London - Edinburgh/Glasgow - Perth - Inverness/Aberdeen with a first stop of Leeds or Preston/Manchester, it would be more beneficial to more people, although possibly still a white elephant

It seems to work okay in Japan, which is fairly similar to the UK in terms of size and urban spread.

in anycase the Cotswolds have already been spoilt by their houses

True - something that'll go straight over the heads of the anti-HS2 crowd

 

[Snapper]

Isn't it funny how people from the pro HS2 camp want the anti HS2 camp silenced because of their name calling (some of which is way out of order, I agree), but yet a HS2 supporter then posts on their Facebook profile the following....

What has what someone posts on Facebook (to their friends) got to do with homophobic abuse on an open site like Twitter? You are trying to compare apples with oranges in what seems like a desperate attempt to justify abuse by the anti Hs2 mob.

Tell you what. If you're so offended by that. Tell me who you are by PM and I'll ensure you don't have to worry about it again.

 

[Donny Dave]

It seems to work okay in Japan, which is fairly similar to the UK in terms of size and urban spread.

The Japanese network is essentially a 1250 mile long line with spurs connecting various cities along the route. This map shows what I mean about it being a 1000 mile long route. As you can see from that map, there is also a 200 mile extension being constructed to Sapporo, bring the ned to end length of the route to about 1450 miles.

What has what someone posts on Facebook (to their friends) got to do with homophobic abuse on an open site like Twitter? You are trying to compare apples with oranges in what seems like a desperate attempt to justify abuse by the anti Hs2 mob.

Tell you what. If you're so offended by that. Tell me who you are by PM and I'll ensure you don't have to worry about it again.

I agree with sentiments is the Facebook post (as I don't like X Factor either), and I have agreed with the fact that homophobic and racist tweets should not be tolerated, and I was 1 of the people who reported that tweet, but ....

You complain about the abuse you get, then you post that! To the average person, they will see that and think "If he posts crap like that, then I can respond in kind". So it isn't apples and oranges, more like the pot calling the kettle black ....

 

[Snapper]

I agree with sentiments is the Facebook post (as I don't like X Factor either), and I have agreed with the fact that homophobic and racist tweets should not be tolerated, and I was 1 of the people who reported that tweet, but ....

You complain about the abuse you get, then you post that! To the average person, they will see that and think "If he posts crap like that, then I can respond in kind". So it isn't apples and oranges, more like the pot calling the kettle black ....

Again, you miss the point. The 'average' person cannot see anything posted on Facebook (which has privacy settings). They can however see anything on Twitter if they choose to look at a particular hashtag.

 

[Geezertronic]

Isn't it funny how people from the pro HS2 camp want the anti HS2 camp silenced because of their name calling (some of which is way out of order, I agree), but yet a HS2 supporter then posts on their Facebook profile the following....

Your man there is posting a joke that is available on a few less appropriate joke websites, I doubt he made it up himself

 

[Donny Dave]

Again, you miss the point. The 'average' person cannot see anything posted on Facebook (which has privacy settings). They can however see anything on Twitter if they choose to look at a particular hashtag.

Your forgetting that you can protect your account on Twitter as well. That means only your followers can see your tweets, even if you use a hashtag.

 

[Snapper]

Your forgetting that you can protect your account on Twitter as well. That means only your followers can see your tweets, even if you use a hashtag.

No. I'm not forgetting. I'm pointing out that the joke you took exception to was protected by privacy settings. The abuse from the anti Hs2 mob was public - for all to see.

 

[NSEFAN]

David, clearly you don't post on WNXX. Otherwise you'd be used to the ways of Snapper.

As for resorting to foul mouthed tirades, that's not something which should be encouraged from either side of the argument. Neither should the anti-HS2 brigade be silenced because the pro-HS2 bunch don't like what they have to say.

What the pro-HS2 side needs to do is to continue to make reasonable arguments to overcome the emotionally-driven ones from the opponents to this project. Any serious, rational objection and sensible alternative has yet to be put forward, in my view. (The only one which was midly close to a good alternative was the M40 corridor route, but that has already been addressed on here).

 

[Snapper]

Indeed NSE fan. What's becoming clear is that the anti Hs2 mob have run out of any answers or alternatives. Their main tactic now is to deny that there's a problem!

 

[Toots]

So 'viable' no-one funded it and it was never built.




You still don't get it, do you? It's the FOCs that don't want it and they're on record as saying so - as is Tony (Lord) Berkeley of the Railfreight Group. You keep ignoring the finances - which don't stack up. As for the S&C exactly who is attempting what you claim?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Really Paul,as I said I am abivalent towards HS2,but if your patronising and condescending manner is an example of how the 'pro' camp carry out their dialogue,I can see why so many are opposed and why you receive such vitriol.
Anyhow,your first point.....Central railway says there was adequate funding,the government was worried there wasn't, so wouldn't pass the required act of parliament,therefore the argument as to whether it was viable or not is a moot point,because we will never know what levels of traffic it would have generated and therefore what it's income would be.
Secondly,the FOC's attitude changes regularly,I would suggest that if the proposed 'substantial' price hike on certain types of traffic goes ahead then the FOC's demands and expectations will change again.
Finally,as opposed to taking photographs of the railway,and in particularly the S&C,I actually work on it,so I can say with absolute certainty that it is Network Rail who are attempting what I claim,in fact I met a Manager on Monday who reitterated that very point.....

 

[andykn]

Really Paul,as I said I am abivalent towards HS2,but if your patronising and condescending manner is an example of how the 'pro' camp carry out their dialogue,I can see why so many are opposed and why you receive such vitriol.
Anyhow,your first point.....Central railway says there was adequate funding,the government was worried there wasn't, so wouldn't pass the required act of parliament,therefore the argument as to whether it was viable or not is a moot point,because we will never know what levels of traffic it would have generated and therefore what it's income would be.
Secondly,the FOC's attitude changes regularly,I would suggest that if the proposed 'substantial' price hike on certain types of traffic goes ahead then the FOC's demands and expectations will change again.
Finally,as opposed to taking photographs of the railway,and in particularly the S&C,I actually work on it,so I can say with absolute certainty that it is Network Rail who are attempting what I claim,in fact I met a Manager on Monday who reitterated that very point.....

I don't see how a separate freight railway helps free up capacity for intermediate express services or helps compete with and reduce domestic air travel.

 

[Snapper]

Really Paul,as I said I am abivalent towards HS2,but if your patronising and condescending manner is an example of how the 'pro' camp carry out their dialogue,I can see why so many are opposed and why you receive such vitriol.
Anyhow,your first point.....Central railway says there was adequate funding,the government was worried there wasn't, so wouldn't pass the required act of parliament,therefore the argument as to whether it was viable or not is a moot point,because we will never know what levels of traffic it would have generated and therefore what it's income would be.
Secondly,the FOC's attitude changes regularly,I would suggest that if the proposed 'substantial' price hike on certain types of traffic goes ahead then the FOC's demands and expectations will change again.
Finally,as opposed to taking photographs of the railway,and in particularly the S&C,I actually work on it,so I can say with absolute certainty that it is Network Rail who are attempting what I claim,in fact I met a Manager on Monday who reitterated that very point.....

Condescending? No, merely pointing out a few realities. That upsets some people some time. You claim Central Railway has adequate funding, where from? What guaranteed customers did it have? As I said, realities are very different to claims.

The FOCs attitude to a pure freight route won't change. Their margins are in single figures and the 'hike' you speculate on would have to be absolutely massive to make a freight railway like GC (which doesn't go where the growth is traffic might come from) anything more than the pipe-dream it undoubtedly is. If - and it's a big if (due to fuel hikes) the FOCs margins do improve that money will be spent elsewhere. It won't be spent asking for a freight only route. Hs2 will give them the extra capacity they need without them having to shell out money on something they don't want.

I also work with the railways a lot of the time, with people at all levels. The idea that NR want to turn the S&C into a pure freight railway is way off-beam. We all know that some of the wildest gossip comes from people within the railways. The fact they work there doesn't mean they actuallyknow what's either practicable, possible or really happening.

 

[SS4]

What the pro-HS2 side needs to do is to continue to make reasonable arguments to overcome the emotionally-driven ones from the opponents to this project. Any serious, rational objection and sensible alternative has yet to be put forward, in my view. (The only one which was midly close to a good alternative was the M40 corridor route, but that has already been addressed on here).

Easier said than done.

Any serious, rational look at something is shoved aside for sensationalism and it's close friend emotion (usually to incite anger as it hampers with the decision making process). Watch the evening news and you'll see my point (in case of the bloke with locked in syndrome a factual argument will not interview family members but may interview/read a statement from the coroner as long as he/she sticks to fact)

Additionally any delay/overpricing is going to play right into the hands of the anti brigade regardless of whether or not they've caused it by going after wholly unnecessary

The overrunning cost of HS2 has hit ordinary commuters hard as season ticket prices rise by a 6% above inflation. One such commuter is Mr X from {Your area} who says that he'll no longer be able to take his children on holiday this year

Certainly not an implausible news story and notice how a hypothetical fact (HS2 comes in over budget) is turned into an emotional argument?

tl;dr - fact is not given a fair hearing in the news media and without the support, or neutral exposure, of news media it is very hard to get one's point across to a wide audience

 

[Donny Dave]

Paul, I know this is going to look as though I'm picking on you here, but ....

In 2008, HGvs accounted for only 5.6% of all vehicle km but were involved in 9.4% of road fatalities. We need #hs2

Rail freight produces less than a tenth of the nitrogen oxide and fine particulates of road haulage per tonne. We need #hs2

Road freight generates 7% of total UK greenhouse gas emissions with HGVs accounting for 4% of total emissions. We need #hs2

How is HS2 going to reduce road deaths and reduce pollution? The vast majority of freight that can be carried economically by rail is already being transported by rail. The rest is made up of wagon load at best.

I don't see how building HS2 is going to reduce road deaths, unless magically every car driver suddenly decides to get rid of their car and use the train instead.

PS in the majority of accidents involving HGVs, it is a car driver that has caused the accident, usually by cutting up the lorry and forcing them to swerve, or a mechanical failure, such as a tyre blowout. (Have you seen 1 let go on a lorry while it's on the motorway?)